YIKES! TFL in LA Times

[Ramcharger]

Apparently someone who was on this website snuffed a couple folks the other night with his new 870. Wow this can't be good.

[Kestryll]

The guy from this thread
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=186172

Not good

[joab]

What's our connection?

[Kestryll]

This is the story, see the bold text.
Frantic Son Told 911 of Shootings in House

A disturbed neighbor's deadly rampage in O.C. leaves victims' relatives decrying gun purchase.

By Christine Hanley and Susana Enriquez
Times Staff Writers

November 2, 2005

Brandon Smith was awakened by the sound of gunshots and his sister's screams. He found her lying on the staircase of their Aliso Viejo home, bleeding badly. Then he found his father on the living room floor. He had been shot too, and he wasn't breathing.

In a frantic call to police, a confused and frightened Smith, 20, also told a dispatcher he could hear someone growling and thought the shooter was still lurking inside the house.

"I don't know what to do," Smith said during his 911 call Saturday morning. "My sister is laying on the staircase, my dad is laying on the floor. I was in my bedroom sleeping, and all of a sudden, I heard shots fired in the house." Brandon Smith escaped unharmed. His sister, Christina, 22, and father, Vernon, 45, didn't. They were killed in a rampage by their neighbor William Freund, 19. Freund left the Smith house in the southern Orange County neighborhood and fired at a home across the street. He tried to shoot a neighbor, but the gun jammed. He walked home and killed himself.

Brandon Smith's 911 call, released Tuesday by the Orange County Sheriff's Department, offers the first eyewitness account of what happened inside the home after Freund entered, dressed in a cape and mask, armed with a 12-gauge shotgun, and harboring a motive that has so far eluded investigators.

The rampage was the last act of a young man desperate for friendship and relief from Asperger's syndrome, a variant of autism that hampers the ability to interact socially, which Freund said he had.

Outside the Smith home Tuesday, Juanita Guerrero, cousin of Vernon Smith's 43-year-old widow, Denise, read a statement while flanked by the widow's brothers and other relatives.

"Vern and Christina were and will always be a part of our family. They were a part of this community and contributed joy and light to those around them. Their passing makes no sense and serves no purpose. They have been taken from us, and what we want is peace for everyone that has been touched by this tragedy."

She also made a plea for stronger gun regulations. "What makes no sense are the laws which demand that for someone to obtain a driver's license and operate a car, they need to pass several tests to make sure they're competent," she said "In contrast, to purchase a gun you simply have to walk into a store, present ID and wait a few days. Almost anyone can do that."

Freund's parents have not spoken publicly since the shootings and were secluded inside their home Tuesday. They let in a few visitors but did not open the door to reporters.

Freund began plotting his suicide and a "Terror Campaign to hurt those that have hurt me" weeks before the shooting, according to his postings on wrongplanet.net, a website used by people with Asperger's.

On Oct. 15 or 16, he filled out an application to buy the Remington shotgun at Saddleback Valley Gun Center, a small storefront gun shop in Laguna Niguel, according George Heuneman, the 68-year-old owner. The gun shop is about six miles from Freund's house.

The weapon cost about $300, and Freund paid in cash, Heuneman said. Freund told the shop owner he needed it to protect his home and to take on camping trips. "He looked like a perfectly clean-cut 19-year-old kid," Heuneman recalled.

On Oct. 19, Freund reported his purchase on wrongplanet.net, saying he "bought my gun from a bunch off old farts at a gun center."

Freund returned to pick up the gun Oct. 25 or 26, waiting for the state's mandatory 10-day waiting period to pass, Heuneman said.

The application process went without a hitch, he said, and Freund passed the federal and state background checks.

"Everything came back clean," Hueneman said. "They told me to deliver the gun."

Hueneman said Freund asked what kind of ammunition to use, then took Hueneman's advice and bought $5 worth of birdshot and a cleaning kit.

Heuneman said he's fairly certain that Freund asked about a target range and that he recommended On Target indoor range in Laguna Niguel, as he does all his customers.

"We point out all the safety features to them. We make them as familiar with the gun as we can before they take it out of the store," he said.

Freund was in the shop only on those two occasions, Heuneman said.

In a 12-hour period beginning Thursday, Freund logged on to a website for gun enthusiasts, thefiringline.com, and asked questions about his new Remington, according to Web master Rich Lucibella. One question was where in California he could shoot buckshot at a range.

On Friday, about 1 a.m., another member responded that novices should "Start with birdshot first then after you are used to the gun then work your way up to heavier loads."

The next day, Freund shot the Smiths and himself.

[459]

yeah I am not suprised. As much as like 99.9% of all people on this board seem like solid decent citizens..you gotta admit occasionaly theres an odd post... not critizing the admins or anything like that at all...but suppose you could say the same for most online forums to though..did this idiot post or ask questions here? Not like there arent a 1000 a day things bout 870s...

[Ramcharger]

He posted on this forum.

[blackmind]

She also made a plea for stronger gun regulations. "What makes no sense are the laws which demand that for someone to obtain a driver's license and operate a car, they need to pass several tests to make sure they're competent," she said "In contrast, to purchase a gun you simply have to walk into a store, present ID and wait a few days. Almost anyone can do that."

Not someone who has a history of various types of convictions or arrests; not someone who is an illegal immigrant; not someone who is under the legal purchase age...

There is nothing about a driver's license test that determines the mind of the driver, and whether he will take his legally obtained license and his legally purchased car and run down pedestrians and murder them. And if you want a test to "make sure they're competent" before you sell someone a gun, aren't you just assuring that they'd be a BETTER shot when they go murdering??

And I thought the "wait a few days" was supposed to ensure that people who were angry enough to murder had time to "cool down"... Are they now admitting that waiting periods don't accomplish their stated goal? That they're just intended to be an impediment to those who wish to own guns?

-blackmind

[joab]

He posted on this forum.

Yes, but you provided no link showing that.

I very vaguely remember reading that thread or possibly reading the common start soft advice somewhere else

I don't remember anything out of the ordinary

More reason to present ourselves in a mature manner here.
There probably is or was several newsies searching through here looking for that thread

[AndrewTB]

I believe for the better of this Rich should prepare a public statement (STICKIED ON THE FORUM). It will help avoid problems.

We had a similar incident happen at another forum I post at (AboveTopSecret.com). Long story short a member there shot up his school etc.. The owner didnt try to hide it in the shadows and we avoided a ton of issues that would have happend if it would have been covered up.

It appears that every forum I post on has a loony toon show up. Honestly my timing is horrible !

[boofus]

Gun control works!

See how effective the waiting period was? I thought dialing 911 was supposed to make the bad guy go away?

[scud]

On the plus side they didn't demonize TFL. Some people are just not mentally stable, unfortunately for a open forum that means that they may register. A shame this happened.

[Twycross]

It would seem that he and all his posts have been removed from the site. Here's the link to at least one of his threads, with him removed.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=185912

[Rich Lucibella]

He did post here over a period of about 12 hours. Nothing at all sinister in any of his 1/2 dozen posts. As soon as we learned of the link we sequestered the posts out of consideration for the victims' families. All posts have been turned over to the proper investigators and we expect that's the end of it.

The LA Times got hold of the link and I gave them an honest and lengthy interview. They stated they were going to do a liability piece and asked if I felt there was any. I answered, "Yes, for the sick dead child who pulled the trigger". They called back and pushed for the postings. I refused them on the grounds that I had provided them the salient content. They asked what I was hiding. My response went something like this: "If I was involved in a train wreck, I'd be happy to provide you the facts. If you pushed for details, I'd refuse you. I have no desire to read about some of the last words of a sick, now-dead child and I won't provide them to you so that others can read them."

They then bifurcated the Liability Piece. When it came to wrongplanet.com, an Aspergers Disease web site, Christine went to great pains to explain that his threats in early October of violent rampage by shotgun did not create any liability for the owners, even though they knew his city and tried to get in touch with him. (I agree, there was no liability for them). For the second piece, however, she wants to intimate that there is liability for a site which answered a couple simple questions about cleaning an 870.

Christine, you disappoint me. Twit.
Rich

[1BadF350]

When purchasing ANY firearm I thought there was a question on the form asking about your mental state? I suppose he lied on that form to illegally obtain the weapon?

[XavierBreath]

Good Show Rich.

[dave_in_delaware]

I don't see the need-to-worry about TFL having some posts from this guy. So what? It's not like he asked us "Should I go out and shoot people?" and we said "yes." He asked general questions, just like we all do here. Nothing out-of-the-ordinary. Nothing different than any other threads/posts people submit to this site.

I commend you Rich, on a situation well-handled with the liability issue. I see no liability w/ TFL or any of the members here. The media and Christine are looking to point fingers and place blame. When the blame rests solely on the person who decided to pull the trigger. Too bad he had to affect so many other lives before he killed himself.

[losangeles]

Interesting thing -- not that it's a real issue --- about whack jobs posting on message boards.

I remember reading recently about some nut head discussing doing some dastardly deeds on a message board. I forgot the specifics as my mind was just in scan mode, but the dude went out and did deed. Now the issue was being brought up by the media to what extent message board moderators should be responsible.

The whole thing seems convoluted and it seems to me, moderators and other forum board members don't have anything to do with it, but it was just interesting that the point was even raised.

[alpineman]

+1 Rich

Sad situation. Rich, the way you apparently handled it makes me even more proud to be posting, reading and learning here at TFL.

[AndrewTB]

Rich,
Thats the type of statment im talking about! You covered every point very well!

I saw a post or two from his. He seemed just as normal as an every day person.

[Evader1]

Rich, you have my respect as well. You should be commended for how you handled the situation and not giving the media more garbage to print. The whole situation is a shame! Well Done!

[Sir William]

A few years ago I saw a weird trend developing in an e-friend. We posted on the same BBs, shared an interest in antique firearms, history, liquid libations, smoking pipes, CAS, assisting others by offering our opinions and we e-mailed each other and mutual friends almost every day. He began asking about ropes, hangmans knots, how to achieve 13 coils and was interested in the physics that result in broken necks rather than strangulation. His brother found him dead. He had hung himself. Sad. Liability? None. Noone could see that he was suicidal. I only knew that there was a dark presence in him and that noone had heard from him. I wasn't able to do anything as there simply weren't red flags, rockets, signs of distress and depression. They just weren't there to be seen. The government can only act when a person presents a danger to themselves or others. A private BB cannot do more than report eccentric or odd threats and behaviours to the proper authorities when they are aware. Will Freund seemed rational in the posts I read. Tragic. The point that everyone is ignoring is the tragedy though, his parents, the schools and the government didn't declare him incompetent. He was therefore allowed to legally purchase and possess firearms as he was just another 19 year old citizen. If someone had taken steps to label, stigmatize or otherwise restrict this adult beforehand and force treatment upon him, he would NOT have been able to enjoy the 2A rights of a mentally competent citizen. He would have still been able to buy a black market firearm. IIRC, individual private party sales in CA must still go through the NICS and transfers.

[XavierBreath]

The point that everyone is ignoring is the tragedy though, his parents, the schools and the government didn't declare him incompetent. He was therefore allowed to legally purchase and possess firearms as he was just another 19 year old citizen. If someone had taken steps to label, stigmatize or otherwise restrict this adult beforehand and force treatment upon him, he would NOT have been able to enjoy the 2A rights of a mentally competent citizen.

Predicting a person's behavior, whether they are legally competent or not is a very tricky business at best. Rather than say someone should have labeled this criminal incompetent and thus prevented him from buying firearms why not hold him responsible for his murderous actions? This 19 year old kid took a shotgun and killed two people and then himself. He is responsible for those acts, not his parents, his school, his best friend or this forum. He is a murderous criminal, not a victim of society.

[steelersfan0000]

+1 rich

[HappyGunner]

Just like that book "The Hitman" they want to blame information for causing peoples bad and misguided deeds. People use the internet to obtain all kinds of information. I admit some of it is not good for society in general but information itself does not cause the deeds to happen people cause them to happen. If someone asked a firearm related question in TFL or any other firearm forum unless they were asking a direct question on how to commit a crime like murder just giving someone general information on the use of a firearm does not mean anything more then someone asking how to cook a turkey for a Thanksgiving dinner. Myself I can sleep tonight knowing that no one on TFL did anything wrong or in any way caused this sad deed to happen.

[Sir William]

XB, I understand your point. I simply have seen people with MH/MR issues that have been helped and tragedies prevented by legal intervention and having the sheriffs take them to a MH facility. The issue lately is funding. A 72 hour lockup is often all there is unless a court is convinced the detainee/patient is crazier and more dangerous than a mad hatter with mercury. We had a detainee/patient who was released after he told the hospital staff he was going to kill his live-in GF. He called 911 and told them he had killed her and left the state. The system is a failure, underfunded and percieved as a bad thing to do to a family member. The people who often need MH assistance often are walking the streets because noone made a call. Remember the mother who recently drowned her three children in NYC. Her family knew she had plans to do that. She told the family what she was going to do. Three children died due to cowardice, exhaustion and a trust given to a untrustworthy, unbalanced and free mother.