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Old December 2, 2005, 04:22 PM   #26
azurefly
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Originally Posted by xavierbreath
There is a lot to this taking a life stuff that is never discussed. In the stress of the moment, it is not as easy as many believe.

Sure, I can believe that in an ambiguous circumstance, it might be hard to pull the trigger.

I don't believe, though, that if someone were clearly threatening my LIFE, or had just murdered someone with me witnessing the act, that I would have a problem shooting and killing him, or living with myself afterwards.

And if I did, I would seek appropriate counseling, which I know there is no shame in doing.


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Old December 2, 2005, 10:37 PM   #27
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I'm not casting aspersions on this guy, but I think what we're seeing is his total lack of training. If I had to guess, I'd say this guy has not been trained much if at all. He's making me think about my current level of (non) training.

To me, it looks like his problem was that he was trying to think through the big questions about this situation too late, as the situation was already on top of him. He reverted to the level of his training, to quote a popular chestnut around here.
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Old December 3, 2005, 04:42 AM   #28
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my question: were he or his loved ones being threatened or were they out of sight and behind cover?

i personally am not going to confront a semi auto rifle with a handgun face-on. i don't get the impression this man was being threatened. maybe i read it wrong. i am not in law enforcement and will leave that to the guys that get paid for it. as far as the other innocents in the area, well, they should have armed themselves. my responsibility is to myself and those near to my heart.

i'm not second guessing the guy. just saying what i would do. i hope.
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Old December 3, 2005, 09:05 AM   #29
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Thoughts similar to some here on intervention. By Evan Marshall from his site, 20 yr cop in Detroit, author and currently advisor on counter terrorism to the Feds.
Shortly after the Mall situation a hostage was interviewed and expressed strong smpathy for the shooter. While most good deeds go unpunished, many do not. Careful.... it can be a jungle out there...in more ways than one.

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Old December 3, 2005, 10:04 PM   #30
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two questions: 1) Did the man that was shot have any training or military experinence? and 2) Was he the first one shot or had the BG fired already?
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Old December 3, 2005, 10:23 PM   #31
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Was he the first one shot or had the BG fired already?
In almost all accounts, including his own, McKown was not the first person shot.
I doesn't appear he had any military experience, but I may be wrong.
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Old December 5, 2005, 08:21 AM   #32
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Judging by his expressed attitude and actions, I believe McKown had little or no training. Sounds like he started off with the right idea--get a CCW to protect himself and others--but he never completed the job--train yourself. Sadly, I've too often see people who do exactly that: assume that just having the gun itself is sufficient to provide security. Actually, it's just one of many components.

Every self-defense firearms training I've attended, including my local CCW class, has warned people to take cover if they can. Talking to an armed man who has already fired shots, whether you've seen him hit anyone or not, is a bad idea. A pistol is generally no match for a rifle, but it's better than nothing, so holstering your best hope is also a bad idea. Leaving cover so you can confront, unarmed, someone who is firing shots? Not good. McKown had to at least believe this whack-job was the shooter and not the police, else he would not have verbally tried to stop him. So his actions make no sense.

McKown didn't deserve to be shot, so for that reason I feel for the guy. But he is an example of what NOT to do in this kind of situation. If he wasn't prepared to deal with the situation, he should have laid low, hoped for the best, and waited it out rather than draw attention to himself. Instead, he did exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time.
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Old December 5, 2005, 10:36 AM   #33
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Don Gwinn said,
Quote:
I'm not casting aspersions on this guy, but I think what we're seeing is his total lack of training.
Don, you are a kind man.

As near as I can tell from McKown's own statements, he should be the poster boy for NOT how to respond as a CCW person. In reading McKown's accounts, I am having trouble figuring out anything he did correctly. Heck, from his own accounts, it does not appear that the gunman even knew McKown had a gun as McKown was dropped by the gunman before he had a chance to draw it to use. Sure, he drew it early on, then tucked it in his belt because he didn't want to get in trouble for brandishing in the mall.

You know, this is one of those examples where McKown probably had a little knownledge that screwed with his mind. McKown stupidly let a fear of legal consequence for brandishing override he thoughts to have the gun out and ready to use in a dynamic shooting situation. I will never understand why people are more fearful of potential/possible future minor legal problems than they are in fear for their own lives.

So the gunman shot McKown and continued to shoot McKown as McKown fell. It sounds like the gunman had better training than McKown and continued his followup shots until he felt McKown was neutralized.

I don't see where McKown or the other supposed CCW folks who didn't draw their guns either actually put up any resistence such that it caused the gunman to change tactics or stop shooting.

I really liked the part how he had planned to crawl after the gunman, but those other people stopped him. I am sure that after being shot several times and crippled, he would have been a force with which to contend, so much more power than before he was shot.
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Old December 5, 2005, 06:23 PM   #34
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It appears to me that Mr. Mckown lost that fight before it started. I don't think he prepared himself mentally to carry a deadly weapon. While one never knows how they will behave in certain instances until it happens, mental conditioning ( although training is up there with it) is probably the most important preparation for this sort of thing. I feel bad for him, but all things considered I think it turned out as well as it could have given said circumstances.
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Old December 5, 2005, 06:48 PM   #35
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Said he would have had to shoot the "Kid" in the head. When a "Kid" picks up a weapon like this one had, he ceases to be a "Kid".

There are 58,000 names on a wall in Washington, DC (some who I served with) and a fair number of them were killed by "just kids".
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Old December 6, 2005, 12:35 PM   #36
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Quote:
There are 58,000 names on a wall in Washington, DC (some who I served with) and a fair number of them were killed by "just kids".
Sadly, a fair number of them were just kids themselves.
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Old December 6, 2005, 06:22 PM   #37
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Woodland

i have to disagree Those that gave their lives for us were MEN!They earned that respect from me.
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Old December 11, 2005, 01:49 PM   #38
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..so what if it was a kid..kids kill people too...too bad about the shot man..why would he get into the open with someone opening fire and tell him to stop???? he should have kept his mouth shut and stayed behind something....you only give a shooter-killer a verbal warning when you got a bead on him..good grief...'just shoot me'!!..he obviously wasn't thinking at all..armchair or not..I'm not going to stand in the open with a gunman nearby...I am not that self-destructive...if I had a clear shot I would have killed the punk...so long as I was fairly sure no bystander behind wouldn't get hit...but some people may react well in a panic situation and some might not...
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Old December 11, 2005, 09:58 PM   #39
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Woodland
i have to disagree Those that gave their lives for us were MEN!They earned that respect from me.
I totally agree with you. I was simply trying to portray that there are some circumstances where being "just a kid" ceases to be a deciding factor in the situation. When you are in that type of situation, age means nothing, no matter which side you are on. It is life or death. I meant no disrespect to those men who did what they did. I have nothing but the highest respect for anyone who has paid that price. They are all men in my book too.
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Old December 12, 2005, 07:38 AM   #40
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http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/ccw/tacoma_tyler.htm

This is the best tactical analasys of this incident and the previous incident earlier in the year that we can actually LEARN something from.
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Old December 12, 2005, 05:00 PM   #41
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woodland

didn't mean any offense hope you didn't take it that way. Thinking about our veterans from that war and the way they was treated gets me very emotional.
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Old December 13, 2005, 02:11 AM   #42
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rapier144,

No worries, non taken. I have the same feelings as you about that part of our history. I believe, no matter how you feel about what our government did there, those men on the ground giving their lives should never have had to take what they did from their own people. It was shameful. For one thing, if you don't agree with it, the men on the ground are the last ones that should hear about it. They have no say at all in what was going on. If they had, things would have turned out a lot different, you can bet on that!
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Old December 13, 2005, 07:35 AM   #43
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Reacting to the Sudden and Unexpected=Training&Accuracy

For the Victim it is a shame he was wounded. My hat is off to him. Due to the suddeness of the situation I don't think any one of us would actually be as prepared as we would like to be. Reduce your chances of failure and train with your firearm. Gain the necessary confidence you need and get through actual training. You don't need to pay a ton of money to go to the expensive courses to do it. Use this forum. Yes accuracy does matter but what I hear all over these boards are headshots, headshots. Accuracy isn't about headshots 95% of the time. People have the misconcieved idea that to be proficient with a pistol you have to "QUICK DRAW MCRAW AND SHOOT WITH INCREDIBLE TALENT". Nothing could be further from the truth. To be good with a pistol is to shoot CENTER MASS, that means in my book from the diaphram area on up into the torso region. For a Pistol If you can Shoot That kind of Target Consistantly and Repeatedly THAT IS ACCURACY. Don't lose sight while training with a pistol because your goals you set are very reachable using this kind of advice.
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Old December 13, 2005, 09:22 AM   #44
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One thing to keep in mind vis a vis training vs no training and combat mindset.
Back during the Vietnam war, the US military commissioned a study that showed that during combat something like one half the soldiers being fired upon did not even return fire.

Apparently, for some folks its not that easy to shoot at a human being, even if he is shooting at you.
I think we all probably know somebody who froze up during deer season. Its possible to freeze up during combat. Even if you are trained.
Something to ponder upon.
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Old December 14, 2005, 12:04 AM   #45
too many choices!?
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You want to develop a,"hard heart", mindset?

Then picture shooting YOUR Father, to save YOUR Mother...I mean literally see it...Sounds sick, but if have the mindset that you could,"off", your own Dad, shooting ANY threat should be no problem ...

PS-Why are you looking at me like that? Like I don't know I have issues
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Old December 14, 2005, 12:39 AM   #46
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Then picture shooting YOUR Father, to save YOUR Mother...I mean literally see it...Sounds sick, but if have the mindset that you could,"off", your own Dad, shooting ANY threat should be no problem
This is, unfortunately, a valid scenario. I know first hand of this happening . The shooter involved was cleared of any charges, but he will be in some serious counseling for the rest of his life. This only drives home the gravity of the use of deadly force.
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Old December 14, 2005, 10:15 AM   #47
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Jack, thanks for the link. Best write up that I have read, and you are right, there are some good lessons to be learned and the writer did a great job of outlining them.

Capt. Charlie, congratulations on your position as "Staff". I always find your postings well written and well thought out. I think you make a valuable contribution to this forum.

So far as the mall shooting, I posted earlier that those who wish to make a tangible contribution can do so to the medical fund. To each his own, but I think that sending a small check is a greater contribution than expounding on what was right or what was wrong. I think by now, most of us have figured that out.

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Old December 14, 2005, 01:02 PM   #48
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John28226

Thanks.
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Old December 14, 2005, 02:21 PM   #49
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McKown stupidly let a fear of legal consequence for brandishing override he thoughts to have the gun out and ready to use in a dynamic shooting situation. I will never understand why people are more fearful of potential/possible future minor legal problems than they are in fear for their own lives.
DNS ~

I absolutely agree with your main point, which is that in order to end up in court, you first have to survive the encounter. First things first!

That's one reason, perhaps the major reason, why I think it is so important to become as informaed as possible about legal issues before you get involved in a deadly force encounter. If McKown had known Washington state law very well, he would have known that while brandishing is illegal, he would not have been guilty of "brandishing" in that situation simply because it is expressly legal to display your firearm in defense of yourself or another person -- whether you shoot or not. The worry about "brandishing" in a mall might have occurred to him, but with just a little better grasp of the law, he'd have discounted the thought and gone on with doing the job.

If he'd had more training, he would not only have had a better grasp of tactics, but during the course of his training he would have been exposed to a lot of different scenarios, which would give him lots of ethical and legal food for thought which he could think through at his leisure. For instance, he might have had opportunity to consider various angles of fire suitable for crowded situations -- or to consider whether he would fire or flee in such a situation. He might have had an opportunity to bat around the idea of firing at someone who wasn't a stereotypical "bad guy," such as a female or someone who looked like "just a kid."

As you say, the time to worry about such stuff isn't in the heat of battle. And yet, if you don't arm yourself with knowledge beforehand, in the heat of battle is exactly when you will be worrying about it.

But if you wait to think about such things until you are in the heat of battle, "what are the lawyers are going to say?" might be the last thing you ever worry about.

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Old January 15, 2006, 06:55 PM   #50
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Mc Kown walks out of hospital

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PUYALLUP, Wash. -- The most seriously injured of seven people hit by gunshots in last fall's Tacoma Mall shooting walked out of a hospital Friday - under his own power.

"OK, guys, I've been out of commission for a while - what's going on?" Brendan "Dan" McKown, 38, quipped as he made his laborious way to the sidewalk with the aid of a walker.

Doctors had said his spinal injury could leave him paralyzed, but McKown was determined to walk again.

"God doesn't do miracles halfway," he told KOMO-TV as he left Good Samaritan Hospital in this community near his Tacoma hometown. Referring to the spinal injury, he added, "At least you know I have a backbone."

He has feeling now in his legs, and is walking with the help of braces and the walker.

McKown, who was assistant manager of the Excalibur Cutlery and Gifts store at the mall, tried to stop the gunman. He has legally carried a concealed handgun for years.

In the next chapter of his life, McKown said he wants to be a motivational speaker, perhaps for kids, and wants to resume his work with a comedy troupe.

Dominick Sergio Maldonado, 20, faces 15 criminal charges in the Nov. 20 rampage, including one count of attempted murder. He's being held on $2 million bail.

Authorities say Maldonado marched through the mall, firing an assault rifle and a machine pistol, before ducking into a record store and taking several hostages. He released them unharmed after a four-hour standoff.

Maldonado's defense lawyer, Sverre Staurset, said his client never meant to hurt anyone. According to court documents, Maldonado told detectives he had been humiliated during a difficult childhood and that recent problems made him want to be "heard."
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Yep, he's very very lucky.
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