shot 27 times with 10mm/.40 cal before dying

Tokamak · January 10, 2006, 08:50 PM

I was reading Guns and Ammo and found this Jeff Cooper quote:
Jeff Cooper Quote

It involves a man being shot 27 times before dying.

Jeff's conclusion is that stopping requires a "cool hand". I would add "and training".

There is a fuller account of the story at:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/10/1773384.php

Here it says that the guns were .40 cal.

Rather than repeat the articles here, I leave the reading up to you.

loosecannon · January 10, 2006, 08:57 PM

Well thats old Jeff if it ain't a FORTY FIVE it ain't a gun, and old Jeff knows it all.

STAGE 2 · January 10, 2006, 09:08 PM

Complete bull. I don't care if someone is hopped up on crack, if you shoot them over 10 times with anything larger than a pea shooter its gonna be over. Add to that the guy was 72 years old and the story becomes even more ridiculous. I have no doubt that he was shot 27 times, when he died is a completely different matter, and when he ceases to become a threat is another issue all together.

hIPSHOT33 · January 10, 2006, 09:13 PM

Suicide by cop . Just gose to prove that when its for real ,cool heads go out the door and training takes over . clearly more rainge time needed .

cje1980 · January 10, 2006, 10:43 PM

It just goes to show that the most important thing in a gunfight is how well you maintain your mindset and how well you can shoot in a stressful environment and situation. It doesn't matter what caliber your gun is, if you can't hit the BG where it counts before he gets you you're dead. A guy with a 22LR pistol can beat out a guy with a 45 if he can hit better and faster. We should all remember Trooper Coates who hit the BG 4 times with properly placed 357Mag rounds only to be killed by one 22LR round. Nothing is predictable and you better be able to hit what aim at very quickly. Shoot whatever caliber you can do that with. Nothing else matters.

yorec · January 10, 2006, 11:29 PM

Yeah - so there were 27 shots that weren't placed suffiently well to cause immediate incapacitation. Caliber doesn't really matter if the hit is only at the edge of the skin and the target is committed to surviving. He'll keep moving until he bleeds out or heals. On mortal wounds, death can come any time, but an immediate neutralization of the threat is what's desired.

I'd been a lot more impressed if the ol' guy had walked away afterwards.

rallyhound · January 10, 2006, 11:40 PM

I gotta think that 27 shots over a time period 30 seconds by one shooter may effect you differently than 27 shots in 3 seconds by multiple shooters.

Mikeyboy · January 11, 2006, 12:14 AM

Multiple cops with .40 semi autos and hi capacity magazines shooting at 1 BG....the guy was probably shoot 27 times within a second before he hit the ground. How many .45 rounds did it take to kill the mobsters during the valentines day masacare??? Over a hundred???? If the author truly believes what he wrote, he needs his head examined.

somerled · January 11, 2006, 12:16 AM

Twenty-seven hits out of 42--that a hit rate of 64 percent. In the days when most officers toted revolvers, it was more like 20-25 percent.

"Five of the shots could have proved fatal on their own, authorities said."

So for all practical purposes, the hit rate was about 12 percent. There were not enough center-of-mass hits.

Maybe the old fellow was dancing a furious jig. If not, those five officers ought to spend more time training.

TX_RGR · January 11, 2006, 01:34 AM

Seriously, all lack of apparently hasty shooting aside, I am curious what makes anyone so certain that X # of COM hits gets you a prize? A handgun is not a guarantee. It's a last resort. .500/.454 Casull owners please hold your opinions, I will stipulate.

joshua · January 11, 2006, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Lt. Danny Fish, who oversees special operations for Petaluma police, said officers don't carry semiautomatics because they are easier to fire but because they are more technologically advanced

I'd like to see an automatic fire a 460 or 500 S&W. I don't want to start a revo vs auto thread, but it just bugs me.... So if it wasn't for the semiauto's capability of reloading faster and having a capacity double than the normal revolver... what did he mean by technologically advance? josh

mete · January 11, 2006, 09:19 AM

Suicide by cop ! In any case it illustrates the rule to shoot and continue to shoot until the BG is no longer a threat !!

Bob79 · January 11, 2006, 12:56 PM

To everyone who has critiqued the officers for hitting 27 out of 42, how may times have you all shot at a human being who was pointing a gun at you?

At the range the target doesn't move, nor does it shoot back, and the whole situation is relaxed. Instead of sitting there making comments like you are, why don't you buy some simunition rounds. Put the rounds in two guns, one for you and one for your buddy. Then have your gun holstered and make up a scenario where your buddy is the "bad guy" and you enter a house with him/her in it. Now lets see how well you shoot under stress, not in a controlled area, with someone shooting back.

Everyone, I mean everyone who makes remarks like the ones here in regards to how many rounds hit, don't understand at all. And statistically, 27 out of 42 is above the national average. With 5 officers, dividing 42 by 5 is 8.4 shots fired per person. If the cops are doing such a bad job, maybe everyone who thinks they are such a great shot should sign up for a uniform.

somerled · January 11, 2006, 01:06 PM

Bob79, I was a police firearms instructor before I became disabled. Police firearms training is woefully inadequate in most departments. Firearms training should include firing at moving targets. Trainers have been telling the brass that for years now.

I guess it is easier to discipline or charge officers with crimes, handle multi-million dollar lawsuits, and face massive public relations disasters.

Bob79 · January 11, 2006, 01:27 PM

Somerled- you're right. Training is very overlooked at most police departments unless you're in some type of SWAT unit. Usually its just "OK when the target turns fire X amount of shots". Standing in a range with static targets that are completely flat facing you is pretty easy to do, and makes qualifying easy even for those who are bad shots.

But I've seen time and time again where people on the web bash cops for their shooting accuracy in response to an article that was written about an incident. Usually I ignore them, but once in a while I respond. I don't care how good of a shot you are in the range with a fixed target, and relatively no stress, the real world is no comparison. I would challenge these people to do something as basic as get thier heart rate up before they fire at the range. Sure you'll look goofy doing some jumping jacks or push-ups right before you fire a magazine but you'll see how even doing that changes your accuracy. Fine motor skills began to dimish at something like 90-100+ BPM, and I assure you when you're in a life or death situation like officers in the line of duty you won't have a nice 60BPM heart rate going.

chris in va · January 11, 2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

To everyone who has critiqued the officers for hitting 27 out of 42, how may times have you all shot at a human being who was pointing a gun at you?

I can attest that paintball definitely gives the adrenalin dump when you see someone directly shooting at you. Trying to fire back isn't easy. Not quite the same as real ammunition, but gives you a taste.

pickpocket · January 11, 2006, 02:09 PM

Ok, so all comments aside on whether or not the police received adequate training, because I really like to believe that most of the cops out there are doing the best they can with what they have and what they have been given.

Getting shot 27 times does not mean that it took all 27 shots to kill you. It just means that you got shot 27 times.

The frustrating thing is that the police (in all areas) continually create bad press for themselves when a situation like this comes out. How many stories/news reels or whatever have we seen where police fire an insane amount of rounds at something that could have been taken out with two or three well placed shots? No offense to the LEO's out there...this is more a jab at the people at the top who think that training isn't a priority.

cje1980 · January 11, 2006, 05:41 PM

Quote:

I'd like to see an automatic fire a 460 or 500 S&W.

I would like to see someone put 10+ rounds of 460 or 500S&W on target in less than 6 seconds. The reload alone would take half of that time let alone controlling the massive recoil. A gun is a tool for police officers and they choose the right tool for the job. You can have the amount of ammo required by a full cylinder and reload from a revolver in a single magazine for a semi-auto. Police many times find themselves in tough shootouts with barricaded BGs where hits aren't easy to come by. Five or six shots may not always be enough. For civilian HD it is a little different though.

cje1980 · January 11, 2006, 05:45 PM

Quote:

How many stories/news reels or whatever have we seen where police fire an insane amount of rounds at something that could have been taken out with two or three well placed shots?

When a BG is barricaded and firing out you it isn't easy to get two or three well placed shots. Actually the people who just simply stand there and assume a Weaver stance while trying to get "well placed shots" are the ones who usually get killed. There was an overall 64% hit ratio which isn't terribly bad considering that in most shootouts the hit ratio is only 20%.

cje1980 · January 11, 2006, 05:45 PM

Quote:

How many stories/news reels or whatever have we seen where police fire an insane amount of rounds at something that could have been taken out with two or three well placed shots?

When a BG is barricaded and firing at you it isn't easy to get two or three well placed shots. Actually the people who just simply stand there and assume a Weaver stance while trying to get "well placed shots" are the ones who usually get killed. There was an overall 64% hit ratio which isn't terribly bad considering that in most shootouts the hit ratio is only 20%. Shooting paper and defending your life with a handgun are two totally different things.

JR47 · January 11, 2006, 07:13 PM

A lot of Leos regard their weapon as little more than a badge of authority. I know, and have worked with generations of them. There are a number of Leos who, SWAT or not, practice assiduously with their weapons. The larger group, though, regard qualifying as a waste of time. "If I could shoot six months ago, I can shoot now." is a phrase often heard. The simple fact is that the majority of LEOs will go through a twenty or twenty-five year career without firing a shot in anger.

This isn't a flame of LEOs, as there are a LOT of workers out here who "qualify" with various skills that they don't often use. Nobody thinks it at all unusual when their abilities equal the time put into maintaining them.

pickpocket · January 11, 2006, 08:32 PM

Quote:

cje1980:
When a BG is barricaded and firing out you it isn't easy to get two or three well placed shots. Actually the people who just simply stand there and assume a Weaver stance while trying to get "well placed shots" are the ones who usually get killed.

These are mutually exclusive statements. You are correct, it is difficult to get a clean hit on someone with decent cover.
However, I don't know of a single training manual that suggests you assume a proper firing position in the middle of all the crossfire.

Quote:

There was an overall 64% hit ratio which isn't terribly bad considering that in most shootouts the hit ratio is only 20%.

I wasn't specifically speaking of this incident...but this does bring to mind the numerous "overkill" stories we hear where poorly trained officers dump 100+ rounds into a car...into a person...whatever. That's what I mean. It doesn't take 100+ rounds to stop a car. It doesn't take 40+ rounds (because that's how many were fired in this situation) to kill a man.

Quote:

Bob McMenomey, the use-of-force commander for the Sheriff's Department...
In situations where deputies resort to firing their gun, McMenomey said, "you shoot until you perceive the threat has been stopped, until it is no longer a threat."

That's from the article, and I agree with this....I just don't think it takes 5 officers blasting more than 9 rounds per at a single unarmored human target to do it. You don't think that's a bit excessive? Granted, there's a little room for excessiveness because the guy was about to point a gun at them...but let's be realistic. Let's look at these types of things for what they really are.

I promise this is not a rant against LE.

orionengnr · January 11, 2006, 08:41 PM

was the responses from the citizenry. 100% in agreement with the LEOs and zero loony-left "oh the poor man, why couldn't they have just shot him in the leg?" type of BS.

pickpocket · January 11, 2006, 08:45 PM

well duh...the guy was a child molester....

ShelbyV8 · January 11, 2006, 10:15 PM

The human body can function for 30 seconds with a heart shot. The BG may have been a standing dead man, but until him or his weapon goes down, keep on shooting. The cops did a great job and anybody who doesn't think they did needs to play more video games and watch some more TV.

January 10, 2006, 08:50 PM	#1
Tokamak Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Posts: 265	shot 27 times with 10mm/.40 cal before dying I was reading Guns and Ammo and found this Jeff Cooper quote: Jeff Cooper Quote It involves a man being shot 27 times before dying. Jeff's conclusion is that stopping requires a "cool hand". I would add "and training". There is a fuller account of the story at: http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/10/1773384.php Here it says that the guns were .40 cal. Rather than repeat the articles here, I leave the reading up to you.

January 10, 2006, 09:08 PM	#3
STAGE 2 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2002 Posts: 2,676	Complete bull. I don't care if someone is hopped up on crack, if you shoot them over 10 times with anything larger than a pea shooter its gonna be over. Add to that the guy was 72 years old and the story becomes even more ridiculous. I have no doubt that he was shot 27 times, when he died is a completely different matter, and when he ceases to become a threat is another issue all together. Last edited by STAGE 2; January 10, 2006 at 11:34 PM.

January 10, 2006, 11:29 PM	#6
yorec Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,328	Yeah - so there were 27 shots that weren't placed suffiently well to cause immediate incapacitation. Caliber doesn't really matter if the hit is only at the edge of the skin and the target is committed to surviving. He'll keep moving until he bleeds out or heals. On mortal wounds, death can come any time, but an immediate neutralization of the threat is what's desired. I'd been a lot more impressed if the ol' guy had walked away afterwards. __________________ What part of "... shall not be infringed..." don't you understand?

January 11, 2006, 01:34 AM	#10
TX_RGR Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2004 Posts: 485	They should've been carrying 9mms Seriously, all lack of apparently hasty shooting aside, I am curious what makes anyone so certain that X # of COM hits gets you a prize? A handgun is not a guarantee. It's a last resort. .500/.454 Casull owners please hold your opinions, I will stipulate. __________________ Someone just hit me with a snow ball; and I can see the guy who threw it.--Phil Simms, AFC Divisional Playoff, January 19, 2002, Pats/Raiders (The infamous "tuck rule" game)

January 11, 2006, 02:09 PM	#17
pickpocket Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 570	Ok, so all comments aside on whether or not the police received adequate training, because I really like to believe that most of the cops out there are doing the best they can with what they have and what they have been given. Getting shot 27 times does not mean that it took all 27 shots to kill you. It just means that you got shot 27 times. The frustrating thing is that the police (in all areas) continually create bad press for themselves when a situation like this comes out. How many stories/news reels or whatever have we seen where police fire an insane amount of rounds at something that could have been taken out with two or three well placed shots? No offense to the LEO's out there...this is more a jab at the people at the top who think that training isn't a priority. __________________ Semper Fi- David Williams "Sabah al khair -- ismee Dave, ahnee al Shayṭān"

January 10, 2006, 08:57 PM	#2
loosecannon Junior member Join Date: January 6, 2006 Posts: 168	Well thats old Jeff if it ain't a FORTY FIVE it ain't a gun, and old Jeff knows it all.

January 10, 2006, 09:13 PM	#4
hIPSHOT33 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2005 Location: ETNA CA. IN THE REAL NORTHERN CALIFORNIA Posts: 120	Suicide by cop . Just gose to prove that when its for real ,cool heads go out the door and training takes over . clearly more rainge time needed .

January 10, 2006, 10:43 PM	#5
cje1980 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,412	It just goes to show that the most important thing in a gunfight is how well you maintain your mindset and how well you can shoot in a stressful environment and situation. It doesn't matter what caliber your gun is, if you can't hit the BG where it counts before he gets you you're dead. A guy with a 22LR pistol can beat out a guy with a 45 if he can hit better and faster. We should all remember Trooper Coates who hit the BG 4 times with properly placed 357Mag rounds only to be killed by one 22LR round. Nothing is predictable and you better be able to hit what aim at very quickly. Shoot whatever caliber you can do that with. Nothing else matters.

January 10, 2006, 11:40 PM	#7
rallyhound Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 271	I gotta think that 27 shots over a time period 30 seconds by one shooter may effect you differently than 27 shots in 3 seconds by multiple shooters.

January 11, 2006, 12:14 AM	#8
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	Multiple cops with .40 semi autos and hi capacity magazines shooting at 1 BG....the guy was probably shoot 27 times within a second before he hit the ground. How many .45 rounds did it take to kill the mobsters during the valentines day masacare??? Over a hundred???? If the author truly believes what he wrote, he needs his head examined.

January 11, 2006, 12:16 AM	#9
somerled Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2005 Location: eastern Kansas Posts: 603	Twenty-seven hits out of 42--that a hit rate of 64 percent. In the days when most officers toted revolvers, it was more like 20-25 percent. "Five of the shots could have proved fatal on their own, authorities said." So for all practical purposes, the hit rate was about 12 percent. There were not enough center-of-mass hits. Maybe the old fellow was dancing a furious jig. If not, those five officers ought to spend more time training.

January 11, 2006, 09:19 AM	#12
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Suicide by cop ! In any case it illustrates the rule to shoot and continue to shoot until the BG is no longer a threat !!

January 11, 2006, 12:56 PM	#13
Bob79 Member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Posts: 60	To everyone who has critiqued the officers for hitting 27 out of 42, how may times have you all shot at a human being who was pointing a gun at you? At the range the target doesn't move, nor does it shoot back, and the whole situation is relaxed. Instead of sitting there making comments like you are, why don't you buy some simunition rounds. Put the rounds in two guns, one for you and one for your buddy. Then have your gun holstered and make up a scenario where your buddy is the "bad guy" and you enter a house with him/her in it. Now lets see how well you shoot under stress, not in a controlled area, with someone shooting back. Everyone, I mean everyone who makes remarks like the ones here in regards to how many rounds hit, don't understand at all. And statistically, 27 out of 42 is above the national average. With 5 officers, dividing 42 by 5 is 8.4 shots fired per person. If the cops are doing such a bad job, maybe everyone who thinks they are such a great shot should sign up for a uniform.

January 11, 2006, 01:06 PM	#14
somerled Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2005 Location: eastern Kansas Posts: 603	Bob79, I was a police firearms instructor before I became disabled. Police firearms training is woefully inadequate in most departments. Firearms training should include firing at moving targets. Trainers have been telling the brass that for years now. I guess it is easier to discipline or charge officers with crimes, handle multi-million dollar lawsuits, and face massive public relations disasters.

January 11, 2006, 01:27 PM	#15
Bob79 Member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Posts: 60	Somerled- you're right. Training is very overlooked at most police departments unless you're in some type of SWAT unit. Usually its just "OK when the target turns fire X amount of shots". Standing in a range with static targets that are completely flat facing you is pretty easy to do, and makes qualifying easy even for those who are bad shots. But I've seen time and time again where people on the web bash cops for their shooting accuracy in response to an article that was written about an incident. Usually I ignore them, but once in a while I respond. I don't care how good of a shot you are in the range with a fixed target, and relatively no stress, the real world is no comparison. I would challenge these people to do something as basic as get thier heart rate up before they fire at the range. Sure you'll look goofy doing some jumping jacks or push-ups right before you fire a magazine but you'll see how even doing that changes your accuracy. Fine motor skills began to dimish at something like 90-100+ BPM, and I assure you when you're in a life or death situation like officers in the line of duty you won't have a nice 60BPM heart rate going.

January 11, 2006, 07:13 PM	#21
JR47 Junior member Join Date: August 9, 2005 Location: North Georgia Posts: 2,228	A lot of Leos regard their weapon as little more than a badge of authority. I know, and have worked with generations of them. There are a number of Leos who, SWAT or not, practice assiduously with their weapons. The larger group, though, regard qualifying as a waste of time. "If I could shoot six months ago, I can shoot now." is a phrase often heard. The simple fact is that the majority of LEOs will go through a twenty or twenty-five year career without firing a shot in anger. This isn't a flame of LEOs, as there are a LOT of workers out here who "qualify" with various skills that they don't often use. Nobody thinks it at all unusual when their abilities equal the time put into maintaining them.

January 11, 2006, 08:41 PM	#23
orionengnr Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Posts: 5,177	best part of the full article was the responses from the citizenry. 100% in agreement with the LEOs and zero loony-left "oh the poor man, why couldn't they have just shot him in the leg?" type of BS.

January 11, 2006, 08:45 PM	#24
pickpocket Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 570	well duh...the guy was a child molester.... __________________ Semper Fi- David Williams "Sabah al khair -- ismee Dave, ahnee al Shayṭān"

January 11, 2006, 10:15 PM	#25
ShelbyV8 Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2005 Location: Killeen, TX Posts: 373	The human body can function for 30 seconds with a heart shot. The BG may have been a standing dead man, but until him or his weapon goes down, keep on shooting. The cops did a great job and anybody who doesn't think they did needs to play more video games and watch some more TV.