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Old February 7, 2006, 10:25 PM   #1
deadin
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"On Killing" by Dave Grossman

This book came up on a thread in another topic and I did a quick review and called it "psychobabble" and received a couple of quick rebuttals say the it should be a "Must Read" for anyone who carries concealed.
I will withdraw my somewhat hasty classification and open the floor for further question, answers and comments.

My first question is: If I read this book, what will it do for me in the arena of concealed carry?

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Old February 8, 2006, 12:13 AM   #2
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In the arena of concealed carry, you'll still carry concealed.
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Old February 8, 2006, 12:45 AM   #3
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I have read this book, and it is a good one. It is not psychobabble.

I would not call On Killing a must read, but instead a should read. If a person has never taken a life, they have about as much knowledge on the subject as a virgin has on sex. What Grossman has done with On Killing is what Masters & Johnson did with Human Sexual Response. Grossman takes one of the last taboos and dispells many long standing misconceptions.

The decision to wear a gun is the recognition that you might some day have to use it. Grossman's book prepares you for that moment in an honest, unflinching manner that has not been equaled.
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Old February 8, 2006, 02:25 AM   #4
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I have a two CD lecture by Grossman. It pretty much summarizes the book. Although I don't agree with his kids and video game theory, I found the rest of it to be informative and enlightening.
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Old February 8, 2006, 05:47 AM   #5
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It's mainly focused on soldiers and military history.

Interesting factoid from the Vietnam conflict:

For every confirmed enemy KIA, US forces expended just under 51,000 rounds of small arms ammo

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Old February 8, 2006, 10:02 AM   #6
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I thought On Killing was an excellent book. It definitely is not psychobabble. It cleared up a number of questions that were stuck in the back of my mind, both from personal experience and from reading milliary history.

He has a new one out,On Combat. It is basically a compilation of lectures that he has given to police departments and to the military.

You definitely should read On Killing.
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Old February 8, 2006, 10:39 AM   #7
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I'm still waiting for someone to explain what benefit I will receive from reading this book. What relation does it have to concealed carry? Is it a psycho-analysis book that will tell me why I should or shouldn't carry? Is it a book full of interesting factoids that can be quoted on some forum? Is it just regurgitating known facts from a different point of view?
What is it? (other than "interesting")

Dean
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Old February 8, 2006, 11:11 AM   #8
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Deadin,

"___What Grossman has done with On Killing is what Masters & Johnson did with Human Sexual Response. Grossman takes one of the last taboos and dispells many long standing misconceptions.__" XavierBreath

Although I haven't read "On Killin" and I don't agree with Masters and Johnson's findings, XavierBreath seems to have described his opinion of the book very well.
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Old February 8, 2006, 12:04 PM   #9
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the book in question is original research. and his statements about kids and operant conditioning of video games should be taken seriously, judging by what I have observed in the real world and taken along with what he has observed about modern military training. It's a must read for anybody who may ever be in a position to have a take a human life.
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Old February 8, 2006, 02:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain what benefit I will receive from reading this book.
Remember Brendan McKown? The Tacoma Mall CCW holder who was shot several times as he froze up and could not/did not shoot an assailant who was weilding an AK variant?

Had McKown read On Killing, he might have been better prepared for that moment of truth, and acted differently. That is the value of the book for the CCW holder. Nobody can tell you what it is like to stare death in the face and defend yourself. Most who have been there don't want to talk about it much. On Killing is a study of that moment of truth. If you just want to tote a gun around you don't need to read it. If you want to prepare for the potential use of that gun to save your life, the book is invaluable.
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Old February 8, 2006, 02:51 PM   #11
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I'm not exactly sure how one can "prepare" for the "moment of truth". You really won't know if you are ready to take a life until the rubber hits the road.
You can read all you want and talk all you want, but until it happens, you won't know. Maybe if the guy in Tacoma had read this book, he may have realized he had no business "carrying". Even then, would the outcome been much different if he hadn't been armed? Possibly, maybe he wouldn't have been shot, but then again, maybe somebody else would have. If he hadn't gone to the mall that day, he would be OK. Or maybe he avoided a car wreck by being there. [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] Happens. All of the analyzing and studying in the world can't answer these questions. They can offer explainations after the fact, but cannot predict how you of I will act in any given situation.

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Old February 8, 2006, 03:06 PM   #12
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Why Johnnie can't kill. Natural inclination to avoid the moment, by flight and/or posturing... Noted by SLA Marshall in interviews with WWII vets that only 10 - 15% actually fired their rifles at the enemy. Up to 55% in Korea, 95% in SEA.

Indoctrination being a key. Man-shaped targets in lieu of circular bulls-eyes, pop up and knockdown reactionary targets, etc. Still have the aftermath to deal with... PTDS (is that right... post trauma delayed syndrome?)

It may be psycho babble, but it's readable psycho babble and might be useful should you be forced to see the elephant.

It's one thing to kill a saber toothed tiger attacking your cave. Another to take a marauding cave man's life.

Go to a bookstore/coffeeshop. Pick one up. Brouse.

Or I can send you my copy. I probably won't be re-reading it.
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Old February 8, 2006, 04:43 PM   #13
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I've done a little research into SLA Marshall's "Ratio of Fire" where I believe your figures came from. There seems to be quite a bit of debate in just how accurate and truthful his numbers are. I would question exactly what was his sample for the statement "10 to 15% of WW2 vets actually fired their rifles at the enemy."
For example, if I were trying to support my supposition that "Indoctrination being a key. Man-shaped targets in lieu of circular bulls-eyes, pop up and knockdown reactionary targets, etc." , I might not mention that my interview sample included a cross section of all WW2 vets. Only a small percentage of those who served in WW2 actually saw ground combat. Using a sample of ground combat vets only would probably not support his theory. As for SEA showing a high percentage, same story. Want to support a theory, only interview those that were in combat. (Easier to do with 'Nam as there were no "front lines" and most of those in theater were exposed to combat at one time or another.)
This is just another example of how statistics can be warped to fit an individuals agenda. (Just look at the numbers the "anti's" come up with.)

As for kids becoming operant conditioned by video games, this is scary. Are we raising a generation of airheads that can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality? After reading post by some of our "younger" members, I'm afraid we are.

Sorry to be so negative, but I definitely do not believe everything I read.

(It's Post Trauma Stress Syndrome)

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Old February 8, 2006, 04:53 PM   #14
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I'd recommend it. I watched some of his lectures on video. I like the type of analysis he offers. I find the psychology of combat and killing and war fascinating in and of itsefl. You might not. I am of the opinion that anything you can think about ahead of time makes you more mentally capable to deal with that situation. At least, I know I am that way in many aspects.
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Old February 8, 2006, 05:10 PM   #15
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It's not psychobabble

I knew Dave Grossman when he was still on Active Duty, and have an autographed copy of his book. "On Killing" will do absolutely nothing for your ability to pull or not pull the trigger. The book is about how the military has successfully used psychological conditioning to enable soldiers to take human lives and still function, and how that conditioning has bled into society at large through popular entertainment. That might or might not be useful to you in understanding your potential adversaries, or in deciding whether or not to carry.

The man did his homework in putting this book together and even after leaving the Army has repeatedly served as a civilian advisor and instructor for the US Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command. He is fantastic speaker, and his book was well researched and well written. I highly recommend reading it...but not because it's in any way tied to concealed carry.
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Old February 8, 2006, 05:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
I might not mention that my interview sample included a cross section of all WW2 vets. Only a small percentage of those who served in WW2 actually saw ground combat. Using a sample of ground combat vets only would probably not support his theory.
It was active combat vets that he surveyed. Grossman in fact lists the activities the non-firing vets engaged in during the fighting.
Quote:
As for kids becoming operant conditioned by video games, this is scary. Are we raising a generation of airheads that can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality?
It's not that they can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy. It's that according to Grossman, by engaging in the fantasy in such realistic ways as many games today are, they are being conditioned to be insensitive to the real thing when they see it.
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Old February 8, 2006, 06:33 PM   #17
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IZHUMINTER,
Thank you for your synopsis. If this is what the book is about, I think I might find it a worthwhile read. I was having problems with thinking (as it was originally presented to me) that it was another "How to prepare yourself to go out and blow away the bad guys" book.
I'm of mixed feelings about how much "desensitivation" a civilian (non-LEO) should have. Carrying is a very serious responsibility and having more sensitivity involved may be for the better.

I still have major problems with the 10-15% figures. This would mean that only 1 or 2 men in an infantry squad were actually doing all of the fighting while the rest were posturing, pulling their shots or hiding. If this is true, those one or two were definitely "Bad A**es" and the rest were more of a hindrence than a help. I really don't want to think this of our combat vets.

Dean
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Old February 8, 2006, 09:05 PM   #18
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If this is true, those one or two were definitely "Bad A**es" and the rest were more of a hindrence than a help.
Hindrance? Not really. IIRC, they kept enemy heads down, carried ammo, etc. They just couldn't/wouldn't line up their sights between a fellow human's eyes and pull the trigger.
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Old February 8, 2006, 09:24 PM   #19
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If you ever get the chance to hear LTC Grossman speak in person make every effort to get there. I've heard him twice and talked to him in person. The guy is a great speaker.
As others have said his book isn't about CCW. It's about getting the mindset. That's what too many people lack. I've seen it not only with non-LEOs but LEOs as well. They lack the true mindset that they'll pull the trigger. I remember one guy in particular (non-LEO) who was always the big talker. He would shoot anyone who came on his property, tried to jump him, etc, etc. He was a "by gawd, by golly" kind of guy. I figured he was all hot air. Then the night came when his back was against the wall. He froze. When telling me what happened he still shook and cried. He admitted he didn't know what to do. He had the guns, he had practiced shooting, but he didn't have the mindset.
Seen it in cops too. When I was on SWAT we were set to take off a guy who was holding 2 people hostage. Had one guy who was former military and talked a good story. We all thought he was set to go when the time came. He was #1 on the stick. When it came time to move he refuse to move. Froze in the doorway.
A bit off topic but sort of on topic. Another great speaker not to miss if you get the chance is CWO Michael Durant. He's the Blackhawk pilot who was shot down in Somalia and about the movie "Blackhawk Down". I've heard him twice and talked to him in person. Good guy who has a message that is worth listening to. It's also about getting your head on straight.
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Old February 8, 2006, 10:43 PM   #20
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It's called PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) which many Vietnam veterans suffer from and is often associated with soldiers who cannot shake terrible memories of battle. But there are many other people who get PTSD, such as victims of violent crimes like rape or assault and survivors or witnesses of an accident, natural disaster, or terrorist attack.

But there is a point that I've always wanted to address and that is the willingness on the part of some people or at least the perceived willingness to shoot someone.

As ISP2605 states in his post about the guy who "was always the big talker. He would shoot anyone who came on his property, then the night came when his back was against the wall. He froze. When telling me what happened he still shook and cried. He admitted he didn't know what to do. He had the guns, but he didn't have the mindset."

I have not read this book but can understand what the posters are talking about. There is a hugh difference between carrying a firearm and being prepared to use it. Many times when one "straps" on a firearm it makes them feel like a "big" man and they can venture into even the worst part of town but do they actually have the "mindset" to use it? Or are they actually to anxious to use it? There was a guy here in town that was attacked by another after a minor fender bender and he shot the guy once in the chest but shot him twice in the back as the attacker ran away. Those two shots in the back got the shooter 25 years to life in Attica. His name is James Pennington and he's still in Attica today.

How many times I have read posts about how someone would blast away or wouldn't hesitate to shoot the bad guy dead all along thinking to myself if only they knew how much more difficult it was to shoot a person then it was a paper target. A lot of these guys are what I call "armchair warriors and keyboard commandos" who have never experienced combat or even seen another man shot let alone shot someone. No one can predict how they will react unless they have "been there and done that" and once you have you know that when you draw your handgun you will use it. Unfortunately, I do not know how one prepares for the "moment of truth".

My "moment of truth" came when I was 19 years old in Vietnam. After having been shot twice, stuffing many of my buddies into body bags and personally killing many of the enemy all by the ripe old age of 20, I can honestly say that after 30 years of carrying concealed I have never needed to draw my weapon but if the need arises I am indeed prepared to use it.
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Old February 8, 2006, 10:49 PM   #21
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No one can predict how they will react unless they have "been there and done that" and once you have you know that when you draw your handgun you will use it. Unfortunately, I do not know how one prepares for the "moment of truth".
Exactly my point!!! +1

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Old February 8, 2006, 10:51 PM   #22
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Weeg

Quote:
Interesting factoid from the Vietnam conflict:
For every confirmed enemy KIA, US forces expended just under 51,000 rounds of small arms ammo
That's very interesting. Where did you get that bit of information from? Did you know that Lady Bird Johnson (our First Lady at the time) owned a munitions factory and received one half penny for every bullet fired in Vietnam? You do the math because I can't count that high!
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Old February 8, 2006, 10:53 PM   #23
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Another +1. Good post Riverrat66!
I've told my rookies that one never knows what one will do when that time comes to decide. I know what happened last time but don't know what will happen the next time. But I know what the mindset was last time which tends to influence what I believe will happen the next time, if there is a next time, which with luck won't be.
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Old February 8, 2006, 10:56 PM   #24
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I wonder if that round count included all the rds run thru the mini-guns, door mounted M-60s, and rds coming from aircraft.
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Old February 8, 2006, 11:08 PM   #25
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I wonder if that round count included all the rds run thru the mini-guns, door mounted M-60s, and rds coming from aircraft.
Even if it only included small arms ammo (M-14, M-16, M-60, mini-guns, door mounted M-60s & handguns) imagine the staggering amount of ammunition that was fired during the war. I'd like to have just the pile of brass to scrap at the local junk yard!
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