Do You Challenge? With a Gun?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This is a branch off another thread. I didn't want the issue to get lost in that one.

In many classes, I've had instructors teach one to challenge when faced with a opponent who is not immediately using deadly force. In matches, I've even seen folks challenge a target for practice.

The classic is that you enter your house - you see a stranger. It seems quite reasonable to draw a firearm as you don't want to be behind the reactionary curve if the person is hostile.

However, we are taught to challenge. If I walk into my living room and see a stranger - I may just tell him or her - "Don't Move" in the command type voice.

So are so many instructors wrong? I find it problematic to just open fire on someone but not be at the ready.

Much FOF training involves such ambiguous situations but some here seem to thing that if you draw - you shoot.

I see no problem with the challenge with drawn gun if you know what you are about and the circumstances of using deadly force.

[CraigJS]

If I walk into my living room and there's an unwanted, uninvited "guest" there, damn right I'll draw. Then I'll start issueing commands! What if you walk in and challenge him (gun undrawn) and he comes up with one in HIS hands? Your a bit behind the curve and have some SERIOUS catching up to do.. This is assumeing that there's no one home in my family that may have a friend over.

[casingpoint]

The experts say don't challenge, shoot. The new Castle Doctrine laws make your defense much easier. But without a Castle Doctrine law, you may have to say something to establish a justifiable reason to shoot. Minus the other witness, what you say is what you said, so shut up and consult with an attorney before you say anything to the cops outside of "Come get this MoFo out of my GD house".

[Skyguy]

So are so many instructors wrong? I find it problematic to just open fire on someone but not be at the ready.

Yes.
They teach the flawed tactic of not drawing unless you intend to shoot......in order to cover their own butt, not yours.

I see no problem with the challenge with drawn gun if you know what you are about and the circumstances of using deadly force.

Draw your gun first and then challenge. A little common sense is needed.
.

[Skyguy]

The experts say don't challenge, shoot.

I don't believe that.

[Capt. Charlie]

So are so many instructors wrong? I find it problematic to just open fire on someone but not be at the ready.

Whenever possible, a challenge is definitely in order. Shooting is the final option, and everything possible that doesn't further endanger you should be tried to prevent it from coming to that.

Law enforcement escalates force based on an established use of force continuum, and I think it's reasonable that non-LE should follow a similar course of action, i.e., use the minimum amount of force necessary to control the situation. Verbal commands fall within that continuum.

Verbal commands should be clear and concise, using your best "command voice", and every individual movement by the BG should be ordered and controlled by you.

I would be very surprised if a prosecutor, reviewing the case, didn't ask if you warned or ordered the BG to give up before you shot, and it could make the difference between a shooting being ruled good or bad.

[leadcounsel]

Assuming we're talking about a clear stranger (not a friend of your teenagers or a friend of your roommate or whatever depending on your living situation)....

I'd absolutely draw first and begin giving orders, aware of whether there may be another in the house. Orders are much more forceful when the person is looking at the business end of a pistol. And, like someone before stated, you'd best be in front of the curve and not behind it.

If it turns out there was an innocent mistake, I'd feel foolish but thankful that I had not shot the person. If it turns out that he was a BG I've got the advantage.

[mete]

"innocent mistake" ? If someone is in my home without my permission or knowledge he has broken in [you don't leave your door unlocked do you ? ],therefore he is a criminal. I draw, then challenge .If my commands are not instantly obeyed I shoot. Remember there may be others inside !

[odessastraight]

Better cool your jets a tad. It may just be the guy who messes around with your daughter or wife when they think you're not around.

[steelheart]

Hmmm... I guess he shouldn't be "poking around" in your house if he doesn't like the looks of the bidniss end of your gun.

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by casingpoint

The experts say don't challenge, shoot. The new Castle Doctrine laws make your defense much easier. But without a Castle Doctrine law, you may have to say something to establish a justifiable reason to shoot.

I don't know who these experts are but it will be your butt in jail and not theirs. What if the unidentified person a friend of a family member's friend? What if the intruder was not armed? Do you take human life so lightly as to kill unnecesarily? Even justified shootings are usually pretty traumatic unless you are a cold blooded killer. Don't get me wrong, I am willing to kill if I have to... but only if I have to.

I would challenge from a position of cover with my weapon drawn. The challenge would probably go something like "Don't move or I'll shoot". That way the bad guy knows I am armed. I'd followed with "Get on the floor face down and put your hands behind your head" and probably "The police have been called and are on their way". If the make a quick movement like they are reaching for a gun, then I would shoot.

This is where I feel a laser might give a strong psychological advantage and improve the chances of the bad guy surrendering without firing a shot. A red dot on someone's chest is pretty intimidating. Even though it is possible to miss with a laser with poor trigger control, I'm willing to bet that most bad guys tend to believe that you won't miss with a laser. I won't count on the laser for aiming purposes but hope to turn a shoot situation into a no-shoot one.

[Skyguy]

This is where I feel a laser might give a strong psychological advantage and improve the chances of the bad guy surrendering without firing a shot. A red dot on someone's chest is pretty intimidating.

Oh boy. Now you've done it. You've actually said that a laser is valuable as a control device and as an intimidator.

Prepare; Soon the experts will start screaming that lasers are a useless gadget, that they can fail, they're a crutch and on and on.

I say you've got your act together. Good tactic.....Good info post.
.

[Mannlicher]

Challanging folks is great for cops. They are trained for that, and its in their job description. As far as I am concerned, in a situation where I was in fear for my life, I would issue no challange. If, as you mentioned, an intruder is in my house, he gets shot, not engaged in a discussion.

[Mas Ayoob]

X number of those you find in the house might be workmen called by spouse, landlord, or whomever without your knowledge when there was a short circuit or a broken pipe. X number, as other posters have noted, might be friends brought over by another member of the household. There are any number of scenarios that make "I'll shoot any stranger I find in my house" a prescription for prison time and bankruptcy.

If you only draw when you're going to shoot, as many posters have noted, you may draw too late to shoot if you're up against someone fast and detemined or even just lucky.

Remember that police and armed citizens alike take many, many criminals at gunpoint for every one they have to shoot. One of the defensive firearm's greatest powers is its power to deter. You don't want to throw that away.

[Blackwater OPS]

A little common sense is needed.

Genius, seriously.

Ok, guy in your house when no one should be there, that is a draw situation for sure, and while certainly scanning for more BGs. Honestly he better not even breath hard. But do you HAVE to shoot? Of course not. But an unknown intruder in your house IS a threat, no guessing there.

The point I and others have tried to make with the don't pull it unless you intend to use it stuff, is simply that presentation of deadly force is the LAST RESORT before deadly force is used. If you think someone "might" be a serious threat, you just can't draw. Sorry, this may not always give you the advantage, but that's life. Once you draw you have laid down the challenge, comply or I shoot, you have no other options.

Also, if the person was not really a threat at all you may have just commited assualt with a deadly weapon, or worse, started a gun fight with an off duty cop, CCWer or whatever.

[Bill DeShivs]

Very few people will be looking to see a red dot on their chest when you have a gun pointed at him! Better to hit him in the eye with the laser and temporarily (or permanently blind) him. A laser is only a viable deterrent when it's seen on someone else.
Bill

[Capt. Charlie]

Remember that police and armed citizens alike take many, many criminals at gunpoint for every one they have to shoot. One of the defensive firearm's greatest powers is its power to deter. You don't want to throw that away.

Well said, Mas! Point/aim of a firearm is probably the second highest in the continuum, with shots fired as the highest, but it's still definitely a viable option.

Granted, I'm acting in the capacity of a LEO, but I have gained control of a situation using point/aim many, many times. The option is far too valuable to ignore, regardless of whether or not you're LE.

Kill if you must, but only if you must.

By the way, welcome to the Firing Line! We hope to hear from you more often .

[sirlonewolf]

I am going to make an assumption that those of you that carry or own firearms have a bit of sense about their use. That sense carries over to the rest of your life. You know your family, your lifestyle and your home better than anyone. If you live alone, a stranger in the home unexpectedly is a stranger. But if you have a bunch of teenagers, dating sons and daughters, wives with garden clubs affiliations.....well you know where this is going.

If it is in fact a true stranger in the home situation, or for the sake of argument lets say it is a mistake of identity on your part. There is never any harm in gently securing your weapon back in the holster without firing. The following conversation will definelty let anyone else that visits your home in your absense (or the stranger the cops hauled off to jail that you didnt have to shoot) know that you stand firmly on the 2nd Admendant. An American right that many have forgotten.

After all it is in fact your home, your gun, your holster. You are allowed to draw and holster it in your home as often as you like whether or not there is a threat.

I am NOT by any means afraid to sqeeze the trigger and am prepared to do so as I have done before. Many people talk alot about what they would do in a situation. But those who have been there know for a fact how they would react.

It is not a big deal for us to take our favorite gun to the range and cut paper. Even with legal justification on our side, it is not the actual shot that is difficult. But rather the months of emotional stress afterwards. It is what separates us legal gun owners from the thousands of gun weilding, thoughtless criminals behind the fences of our prisons. It is called a conscience.


You Never Have to Remember the Truth

[Blackwater OPS]

There is never any harm in gently securing your weapon back in the holster without firing.

No the harm is while you are doing that it is very difficult to defend yourself from an attack (I speaking of one which a reasonable person would not consider likely to cause serious bodily harm or death)

You are allowed to draw and holster it in your home as often as you like whether or not there is a threat.

If I am a guest in your home, and you think it's ok to point a gun at me for no reason, you are going to be locked up.

I am NOT by any means afraid to sqeeze the trigger and am prepared to do so as I have done before.

No one is doubting your internet bravado.

[sirlonewolf]

[QUOTE]If I am a guest in your home, and you think it's ok to point a gun at me for no reason, you are going to be locked up.

Guest - a welcomed invited visitor. There is no threat there not even a percieved threat. No reason for me to point a gun at you. Didnt this thread originally begin with the senario that we are dealing with a stranger?

If I walk in my home and see a person I do not recognize, I will most likely percieve him to be a threat and up to no good. For I live alone with no other members of the household who could have possibly invited him. I deal with him on that level.

But my home is bustling with family, friends of family members, neighbors etc at which time any one of them could have invited their guest which may be a stranger to me. That is in fact a different senario. My family members know very well NOT to leave one of their invited guests unattended in my home without my prior knowledge.

My original comment stated that I am allowed to draw and holster my weapon as often as I like whether or not there is a threat. For you folks that were not paying attention to the subject matter, perhaps I should have stated that same comment as 'whether or not the threat ultimately proves itself to be real or just perceived.'

I could take words of the Bible out of context and cause you to not believe in God.

Internet bravado

Throughout history many mistakes, even fatal ones, have been made by making inaccurate assumptions.

I came to this forum for discussion on current issues of value to all Americans. Not to have my words re-written, nor to be insulted!

[THENASH]

I think in a situation of confronting an intruder in my house I would probably shoot first, draw my weapon, challenge, and then state commands. but not necessarily in that order.

I could just unleash my ferocious kitty cat, or maybe the wife.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Thinking about this, I remember my training in empirical methods.

Many folks claim that faced with a situation where they draw their gun, they will shoot it.

However, the criminological data do not support this and they do not point to not shooting as a high risk situation.

Kleck, Cook, and various other researchers have found an extremely high number of defensive gun uses in the USA.

Reasonable estimates range from 800,000 to 2,000,000. The studies also indicate that 90 to 95% have no shots fired and are deterrent in nature.

Thus, stating as a truism from some person or other that if you draw you have to shoot isn't supported by what happens in the real world.

Nonshooting use of guns seems quite successful.

Another point is that this series of discussions really points out the need for quality training if you are a serious student of these issues. I grant you that it can cost money. I was lucky to get funding to go to Mas' LFI-1 were he so ably discussed legal matters.

I've engaged in quite a lot of force on force from Insights, KRtraining, Steve Moses and the NTI. It teaches you that situations are amibiguous and not everything is a shoot. Paper and matches do not compare.

The current issue of SWAT has two excellent articles on FOF training.

It is clear to me now that one needs a good knowledge of circumstances and some experience with the ambiguities of actually trying civilian scenarios. Such exposure indicates that folks who simply think that if you draw you shoot, you shoot any stranger in the house, etc. really don't have an handle on the situation.

[Skyguy]

Another point is that this series of discussions really points out the need for quality training if you are a serious student of these issues.

So true....and "quality training" is the operative phrase.
Like any product or service, some professional SD instructors are not up to the quality or the task.

As an example, below is a verbatim quote from a known working instructor:

"My gun is not coming out unless it is with intent to pull the trigger on someone because thats what is necessary to stay above ground. I do not care to attempt to de-escalate anything when the gun needs to be used as a civilian as some intimidation mentality. That process can likely get one killed IMO."

Of course, your post points out the facts and the folly of that mindset.
.

[silicon wolverine]

If there is an unknown in your home and they are there for a purpose such as repairman, cable guy, unexpecte guest etc. It is perfectly fine to draw if you do not knwo who they are. In most cases they will idintify themselves if they are there for non-BG puposes. then you can holster, apoligize and and all is well. If they come up with a weapon you're ready. You have to have a justification to shoot not just "he was in my home and i didn't know who he was."

SW

[casingpoint]

Mas Ayoob said <One of the defensive firearm's greatest powers is its power to deter. You don't want to throw that away>


What would you know?

Mas Ayoob a junior member of THF? Preposterous.

But as long as you are the real Mas A., I recently found your book "In the Gravest Extreme" (1982) still timely advice and counsel in the new century. As I recall you were one of the "experts" who recommended not challenging an intruder. I'd refer to my copy to make sure, but I loaned it to my sister who just got a .357 J-frame snub nose and is pursuing a cw permit.

By the time all her friends and employees get through with it, it'll wind up in Timbucktoo and I'll have to buy another copy.

Interested parties can find this valuable treatise at the used book dealer www.alibris.com online for under $10 plus shipping. Reading it will help to moderate that itchy trigger finger syndrome syptomatic of watching too many episodes of 24 and The Shield.

If you are new self defense, read it, and stop relying completely on the advice of the message board experts.