AMBUSH FEVER! "One in the tube?"

Magyar · July 3, 2006, 07:06 AM

No, not another “cocked-n-locked” thread, no minds are changed on those endless arguments. If you want the hammer cocked, that’s your business. However, this is a rationale for many of us carrying w/o “one in the pipe”, safety off, for most autoloaders, not just the1911. M. Ayoob has an expression that he uses whenever he gets in a corner or is challenged on one his points; it starts out something like this: “Show me one documented case of a LEO, that has been killed where slow response time in loading was the primary factor.” (Italics are Ayoob’s only). There aren’t any & suspect the same with the wide use by the Israelis. What we do find are: improper mind-set, hesitancy, & poor tactics usually being the culprit. Too many pistoleros suffer from what I call, “ambush fever”, where they feel that circumstances will dictate pulling out their piece immediately and start firing. If you’re always in a state of White alert and are oblivious to your surrounding, yes it might happen. Most permit holders I know, referring to Cooper’s system again, are more in a Yellow/Orange state being proactive to an impending situation. BTW, I’ve noticed that certain pistol organizations start their competitions with an empty chamber for good reason.
Racking a slide is about a normal motor response as flicking a safety or depressing the slide-release lever after a fresh mag is inserted. All of these require practice and can be accomplished expeditiously. If you add safety considerations, for the user & perhaps the edgy public; opinions & law enforcement guidelines are changing. Please, none of the “What happens if your off-hand get shot, etc.?” That is about as remote as your thumb developing a cramp fumbling for the safety & hitting the mag release….
Anyway, this is not an argument or an apology; but a justification. What say you?

DonR101395 · July 3, 2006, 07:27 AM

I say, carry however you like. It makes no difference to me if you carry loaded, unloaded, cocked&locked, it's your business, but however you carry practice with it and try some FOF drills and see what works for you.

Handy · July 3, 2006, 07:34 AM

If you're so intent on playing the odds, just leave the gun at home - it is much more comfortable.

I don't know why you carry a gun, but most of us do so to prepare for the unexpected. Your post reflects the fact that you have some definite expectations about what kind of confrontation you're going to have. Congratulations on your omniscience.

For the rest of us, you'll pardon our paranoid delusion that an attack might preclude the use of two hands to get one handgun into action. Speaking of "normal motor response", you realize that the normal response to being struck or stabbed is to raise your arm to protect your chest and head. So your plan is good as long as you haven't been struck. What kind of attack are you expecting, again?

Real life isn't statistics. If it was we could all just carry 3 rounds, right? Or maybe just a fake gun, since most armed confrontations end without a single shot fired, right?

BTW, Israel has very low crime rates and not as many CCWs as you might think. Perhaps armed responses to terrorism in Israel and urban muggings here don't make for very useful comparisons?

Boondoggie · July 3, 2006, 08:23 AM

Isn't funny how even among the the few that agree on one thing, there is so much disagreement as a whole.

We all agree we should carry, but other then this one simple statement, never the rest shell meet.

I guess that's the beauty about about living in the United States of America, nobody can tell YOU how to do something. It's your life, live it as you wish.

Ben Swenson · July 3, 2006, 08:32 AM

If one in the tube isn't for you, don't carry that way. As Handy points out, chances are fantastic that you will never have to draw your gun, and if you do, chances are you won't have to fire it.

Yeah, some people choose to prepare for a situation where they might not have full use of both hands because you're trying to do multiple things, you're being partially restrained, you've been injured, or who knows what else - but what are the chances of that? Probably pretty slim, even in the limited sample of instances where you'd need to have a gun.

Everyone plays the odds. Some people don't think a gun is necessary at all. Most are right. Whatever condition you carry, practice, with it. Practice for more than perfectly ideal situations and pray that things never get worse than what you're prepared for.

marlboroman84 · July 3, 2006, 08:45 AM

I'm not about to have to take that extra second to rack my slide when i'm carrying. 16 in the clip and 1 in the pipe. If my gun leaves it's holster that means someone is getting ready to die or be very seriously injured, because they have left me with 0 opportunities to do anything else. Like Handy and everyone else said carry how you want, but how you practce is how you perform if you practice shooting with 1 in the pipe, but carry empty chamber more than likely you're gonna pull it and hear CLICK. Click may be the last thing you ever hear. So get really good at racking that slide on the way out of the holster. Just my dollar minus 98 cents

Detective_Special · July 3, 2006, 08:53 AM

My little story has led me to believe that you have to be ready for anything, when you least expect it. As I was heading to work during the graveyard shift, I stopped at a red light. A man surprised me by knocking on the window and asking for money. The incident ended by me waving him off and telling him to get lost, which he did. No big deal as I'm sure this happened to most everybody, but it taught me a very good lesson. Later, I got to thinking that it could have been worse. Ex. couple of guys opening the car door dragging me out and getting beaten and robbed, which is a reality these days. First off, I have now learned to lock the car door (which I never did) this would definetly buy some time, to just to drive away. or if I couldn't get away, draw my firearm to stop the attack, which unfortunately that wasn't an option, because where I live the only thing that I can carry legally is a C-cell Maglite. My point is that things can get nasty fast, and fumbling to draw, even taking off a safety, let alone racking the silde can mean precious time. Also, like the previous member mentioned, it is important for the individual to feel comfortable in how you carry and and how you practice, in addition, I find it hard to believe in this day and age that a reputable pistol organization starts their competition with an empty chamber.

Jehzsa · July 3, 2006, 09:06 AM

Does anybody have a link to the manual for the Israeli draw? Have an inkling that the Barak was specifically designed for it. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg132-e.htm

ScaryWoody · July 3, 2006, 09:14 AM

First off, I like your picture included with this thought provoking post.

I have been carrying for a few years now. I started off carrying with an empty chamber figuring that I should have time to rack the slide. During my time carrying I have invested in many classes that teach technique and safety. I have come to the realization that in real life scenerios, there is no time to "rack the slide".

Most confrontations that occur "out there", occur within a very short distance. Usually, 3-7 feet. That equals about 1 second to assess the situation, react accordingly and put lead down range. A man running at you from 21 feet can cover the ground in about 3 seconds. That still does not allow enough time, at least for me, to assess, react and protect myself.

By carrying "cocked and locked" (Glock 19 so not really) I at least have one less thing to worry about if I have to pull and protect.

Ace On The Line · July 3, 2006, 09:32 AM

I carry a handgun for one reason, protection. My HK P9S .45 ACP has a 7 round magazine. As of yet I've not had to find out how important that +1 round chambered actually is, however its like an ace in the hole if your life is on the line. I say if you carry you want the odds in your favor and that extra round before a reload just might be the one that saves your hide. I also carry two spare mags.

rmagill · July 3, 2006, 12:40 PM

Along with what has already been mentioned, two things caught my eye in the first post.

First:

Quote:

“Show me one documented case of a LEO, that has been killed where slow response time in loading was the primary factor.”

You're right, you will not find any stats about this because:
1) Most, if not all, LEOs carry with one in the pipe, some cocked without the safety on (I have spoken to LEOs with many years of field experience and this is what they did with 1911s)

2) Search for LEO involved shootings where the LEO is shooting from retention. Without one in the pipe, the LEO would have had no time to rack the slide and fire in time to stop the threat.

3) Finally, and perhaps the clearest example, try searching for instances where the suspect did not have a round chambered and was shot trying to rack the slide.
What is interesting here is that the LEO is completely at a disadvantage:
1) He is reacting to a threat
2) He is close to the threat
3) He has multiple layers of retention to overcome (a lot of them do, anyway)
4) The threat has a quicker draw due to #3
HOWEVER
5) LEO has one in the pipe, the suspect does not.

Who gets the shot off quicker? Answer: the LEO.

And the second thing that caught my eye, but has already been stated is about:

Quote:

Too many pistoleros suffer from what I call, “ambush fever”, where they feel that circumstances will dictate pulling out their piece immediately and start firing.

I have personally been in two situations in which leathal force could have been justified, and a third where someone threatened to "blow [my] head off". Because I was at work for all three of these situations, I was not armed. In each of these situations, the situation went from a typical interaction with someone being uncooperative to deadly in less than one second. In all of these situations, I would have barely had the time to draw my firearm from an OWB rig, let alone rack the slide. Situational awareness did nothing to prevent any of these situations (granted I was as work and had to deal with these people, but there was no way to avoid the use of force issues).

While I do not want to ever pull out my gun and just start firing, real life shows us that this very will may be what we need to do to go home some night.

If you choose to carry without one in the pipe, that is your choice, however I choose to be prepared for whatever may come my way.

Shaun · July 3, 2006, 01:18 PM

get a revolver....end of argument.

guntotin_fool · July 3, 2006, 01:32 PM

I know of two police shootings in which HAVING one up the pipe saved the officers life...One incident cost a police officer her life, and her partner was able to draw and kill the assailant before she herself was killed because she was cocked and locked. The other was a cop walking out of the bathroom at a service station and meeting face to face with two armed robbers, he drew and shot both attackers two hits each while the second shooter was trying to make his weapon function. No matter how fast you can rack the slide you would not have been able to do that and survive in those situations.

The Israeli method comes about from having almost everybody armed all the time 24-7. They do not expect to be the only one in a gun fight, and they know that within close range, there will be someone with a SMG or a rifle to help out. They are taught that method of carry for two reasons. complaicency may allow them to relax on the safety precautions and with so many day workers coming in to the cities unarmed, the thought is that if one tried to execute a gungrab and use the weapon, the owner would have a moment to react.

Magyar · July 3, 2006, 01:55 PM

Appreciate the thoughtful responses. Obviously, this practice isn't for everyone, especially those who do not handle a pistol often. Also, didn't expect to change any minds. First of all, there is no difference in time....From my cross-draw, standing or sitting in my vehicle, there is one motion as the pistol is unholstered. Well before the pistol is raised to sight a target; it is loaded. The only argument that has some relevancy is the use of both hands. If you want to handicap this argument with that thought; no problem.
Remember this, whether you are in #1 or #3 or even 0; if you're not in an anticipation mode all the time; it doesn't matter either way...

Ausserordeutlich · July 3, 2006, 02:07 PM

What a terrible analogy regarding Ayoob and l.e.! The reason there aren't any documented cases is because l.e.o.'s dont' carry with an empty chamber. That's pretty simple, isn't it?

Show me one documented case where a non-l.e.o. has been sucessfully sued for having used a modified weapon in a legitimate case of self-defense. (You won't find any.) Wonder what Mr. Ayoob says about that one, since not using a modified weapon is something that he insists on in his seminars.

Handy · July 3, 2006, 02:08 PM

How is it "handicapping the argument" when we point out that most every self defense shooting is within 5 yards, and that suggests that at least one of your arms might already be a bit busy?

The only handicapping I see is your prepackaged thinking about what is or is not likely to happen when you are mugged. It is not a question of "time", per se, but ability to get multiple things done in a situation that is, by definition, "violent" and outside your ability to control without lethal force.

"Hey, let go a minute. I've got to load this."

Ausserordeutlich · July 3, 2006, 02:09 PM

Handy, you're being absolutely too logical. Don't you know that all attacks happen @ 7 yds.???

Lurper · July 3, 2006, 06:52 PM

"First of all, there is no difference in time...." ???!!!
I'd like to see that, and if you really believe that there is no difference in time then this discussion is pointless. Many will hold on to a belief in spite of opposing reality. I don't know of any LE in the US that carry without a round chambered. Just because the Israeli's use a technique doesn't mean it has any more validity than a technique the Mexicans use. A pistol with a round chambered will be significantly faster every time! And no less safe in the hands of a PROPERLY trained shooter.

You will always have the occasional weird event happen in spite of the norm, in statistics, these are called outlyers. Any well made pistol is safer than the average firearm owner/shooter even with a round in the chamber. If you aren't comfortable carrying with one in the chamber, by all means don't! However to try to convince others that 1. it is safer to carry without one in the chamber 2. it is equally as fast is analgous to The Emperor's New Clothes!

ATW525 · July 3, 2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

No, not another “cocked-n-locked” thread, no minds are changed on those endless arguments. If you want the hammer cocked, that’s your business. However, this is a rationale for many of us carrying w/o “one in the pipe”, safety off, for most autoloaders, not just the1911. M. Ayoob has an expression that he uses whenever he gets in a corner or is challenged on one his points; it starts out something like this: “Show me one documented case of a LEO, that has been killed where slow response time in loading was the primary factor.” (Italics are Ayoob’s only). There aren’t any & suspect the same with the wide use by the Israelis. What we do find are: improper mind-set, hesitancy, & poor tactics usually being the culprit. Too many pistoleros suffer from what I call, “ambush fever”, where they feel that circumstances will dictate pulling out their piece immediately and start firing. If you’re always in a state of White alert and are oblivious to your surrounding, yes it might happen. Most permit holders I know, referring to Cooper’s system again, are more in a Yellow/Orange state being proactive to an impending situation. BTW, I’ve noticed that certain pistol organizations start their competitions with an empty chamber for good reason.
Racking a slide is about a normal motor response as flicking a safety or depressing the slide-release lever after a fresh mag is inserted. All of these require practice and can be accomplished expeditiously. If you add safety considerations, for the user & perhaps the edgy public; opinions & law enforcement guidelines are changing. Please, none of the “What happens if your off-hand get shot, etc.?” That is about as remote as your thumb developing a cramp fumbling for the safety & hitting the mag release….
Anyway, this is not an argument or an apology; but a justification. What say you?

Weren't you talking about how great Daewoos are with their SFS-style system? What happened to make you change you change your mind from just "cocked and locked is bad" to "having one in the chamber at all" is bad?

MidnightRambler · July 3, 2006, 07:31 PM

I asked my NRA instructor about this in a class, and he had me stand 25 feet away with a Glock 17 using snap caps. I did not have one in the chamber. He told me when he was going to run at me and challenged me to draw the gun, rack it and bring it up to fire before he reached me. I could not do it. His lesson was "if you're going to carry, carry with one in the chamber".

I was in orange condition for the drill and knew he was going to run at me, yet couldn't rack it in time to fire.

281 Quad Cam · July 3, 2006, 08:00 PM

M. Ayoob may have said that, but he is also aware of the fact that there is no department in America that requires its officer's to carry empty chamber, and I suspect not one of them does. As has been stated, while it may not seem like alot of time, in most cases it is enough for a bad guy to clear 25 or more feet before you can perform it.

What about the big scary guy walking down the sidewalk in your direction? Are you going to draw and rack on an innocent man when hes 25+ feet away just incase? Otherwise what if you are practically brushing shoulders by the time big ugly makes a move on you? Your first sign there was any trouble, is being thrown by a large man. Now perform your draw-rack while flying, rolling, or being kicked.

perhaps the first sign of trouble is being maced, being hit with a bat, getting nailed by a blackjack. Why on Earth would a criminal advertise his intentions when he can just strike an unsuspecting victim? Well... it doesn't happen very often. So yeah... ambush fever - the belief that crooks, rapists, and kidnappers don't shout "I'm gonna rape and murder you!" from 20+ yards away.

Lets try a drill,
I don't tell you we are running a drill, or introduce myself. I stand next to you, mace you, straddle you and begin to whale on you while your arms are immobilized... When I choose to stop, and move on to robbing you or stuffing your girlfriend into the back of my van, you perform your draw and rack - and than decide if it is a gross or fine motor movement. Ofcourse, if I haven't rolled you around enough to discover the gun. (No hard feelings meant, but a cold brutal portion of reality is sort of why we are carrying these things to begin with.)

No, a loaded chamber will not save you from the above, but it could prove to be one less impediment on the worst day of anybody's life.

ranburr · July 4, 2006, 12:27 AM

Quite possibly the stupidest thread ever posted on this forum.

ranburr

rmagill · July 4, 2006, 01:55 AM

Magyar:

Quote:

Well before the pistol is raised to sight a target; it is loaded.

Something else to point out: what if you do not have the time for an accurate sight picture.
Try point shooting from the hip (even dry fire, if live fire, be careful not to shoot your hand) with one loaded in the chamber, then try the same thing without one in the chamber. Which one is faster? It will be the times with one in the chamber. The instant it clears leather you can begin firing it, whereas without one in the chamber, you need to clear leather, rack the slide, then begin firing.

Now, before anyone launches on the merits of point shooting vs aimed fire, I am only offering this as a suggestion for when aimed fire is not an option due to proximity, at which point you *should* be able to hit what is right in front of you.

Also:

Quote:

this practice isn't for everyone, especially those who do not handle a pistol often.

I handle guns just about every day, if not every day. Does this constitue "often" or not? If this way was better (time vs safety), I would practice it until I was proficient. However, I cannot see any logical reason for carrying a last chance SHTF tool incapable of instantly being deployed, especailly with modern hadguns that, apart from a major mechanical failure, will not fire without direct human intervention. If there is a good, logical reason, please let me know.

Just my .02.

banditt007 · July 4, 2006, 01:57 AM

to be safe i generally carry without a magazine in the gun, i keep the gun on me and the magazine in the car. In an event i may need to use the gun it would be one swift movement to dive into the car, load the mag, rack the slide aim and fire. :barf:

If you dont feel safe carrying one in the chamber, you shouldnt be carrying a gun IMO.

NwG · July 4, 2006, 03:33 AM

This should really be a non issue..

IMO If you don't feel comfortable with a round in the chamber, you are not compleatly comfortable with your skills IMO..

Please show me ANY quality tactical shooting school that would teach this method...

" First of all, there is no difference in time"

I will not be the first one to call total BS on that one..

"Well before the pistol is raised to sight a target; it is loaded."

And what happens if something goes wrong when chambering a round? What if you happen to short stroke and don't strip a round off the mag? .. Click... The loudest sound you will ever hear in a gun fight..

"Please, none of the “What happens if your off-hand get shot, etc.?” That is about as remote as your thumb developing a cramp fumbling for the safety & hitting the mag release…."

#1 You are MOST likely to be shot in the hand while presenting you weapon.. They are directly in front of the primary target (COM)
#2Fine motor skills are right out the window in a gun fight.. Most people who have been in one will tell you there hands felt like a pair of flippers.. As none of us know how we will react in such a situation we must train for the worst possable event.. Things like racking with the whole palm and four fingers to get the best grip possable on the slide, racking the slide after a magazine change rather than hitting the release (This one is up in the air with me but there are some good points to racking the slide.. Like full recoils spring compression to return the pistol to battery)

As many have posted why, WHY would you limit yourself in so many ways?

The "I will most likely have time to rack the slide because of X,Y and Z sats" is just about the worst I have ever seen...

We carry firearms for the possability of that one time, when everything turns to S#it and our lives may depend on being armed.. That ONE time when the "stats" are NOT on you side... To limit yourself in ANY way is just plain stupid..

Not all badguys out there are stupid street scum we usually think of in firearms training.. You may have to fight somebody who is better and possably faster than you.. They may have more training than you..

All in all it's just a stupid idea....

July 3, 2006, 08:45 AM	#6
marlboroman84 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2006 Location: Memphis,TN Posts: 541	I'm not about to have to take that extra second to rack my slide when i'm carrying. 16 in the clip and 1 in the pipe. If my gun leaves it's holster that means someone is getting ready to die or be very seriously injured, because they have left me with 0 opportunities to do anything else. Like Handy and everyone else said carry how you want, but how you practce is how you perform if you practice shooting with 1 in the pipe, but carry empty chamber more than likely you're gonna pull it and hear CLICK. Click may be the last thing you ever hear. So get really good at racking that slide on the way out of the holster. Just my dollar minus 98 cents __________________ Ban Liberals, not guns! ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE (mo-lone lah-veh)

July 3, 2006, 08:53 AM	#7
Detective_Special Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2004 Posts: 293	ambush fever My little story has led me to believe that you have to be ready for anything, when you least expect it. As I was heading to work during the graveyard shift, I stopped at a red light. A man surprised me by knocking on the window and asking for money. The incident ended by me waving him off and telling him to get lost, which he did. No big deal as I'm sure this happened to most everybody, but it taught me a very good lesson. Later, I got to thinking that it could have been worse. Ex. couple of guys opening the car door dragging me out and getting beaten and robbed, which is a reality these days. First off, I have now learned to lock the car door (which I never did) this would definetly buy some time, to just to drive away. or if I couldn't get away, draw my firearm to stop the attack, which unfortunately that wasn't an option, because where I live the only thing that I can carry legally is a C-cell Maglite. My point is that things can get nasty fast, and fumbling to draw, even taking off a safety, let alone racking the silde can mean precious time. Also, like the previous member mentioned, it is important for the individual to feel comfortable in how you carry and and how you practice, in addition, I find it hard to believe in this day and age that a reputable pistol organization starts their competition with an empty chamber. Last edited by Detective_Special; July 3, 2006 at 01:42 PM.

July 3, 2006, 01:18 PM	#12
Shaun Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2006 Posts: 404	get a revolver....end of argument. __________________ "Go with God. Bag full of guns." Colt Cobra .38 Spl; Smith & Wesson M10 4"; Colt Detective Special; Ruger Security Six 6"; H&K USPc 40S&W; Smith & Wesson 686P 4"; Kimber Eclipse Pro II; Smith & Wesson M29 6.5"; 3-Screw Ruger Super Blackhawk; Glock 17

July 3, 2006, 01:55 PM	#14
Magyar Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,581	Appreciate the thoughtful responses. Obviously, this practice isn't for everyone, especially those who do not handle a pistol often. Also, didn't expect to change any minds. First of all, there is no difference in time....From my cross-draw, standing or sitting in my vehicle, there is one motion as the pistol is unholstered. Well before the pistol is raised to sight a target; it is loaded. The only argument that has some relevancy is the use of both hands. If you want to handicap this argument with that thought; no problem. Remember this, whether you are in #1 or #3 or even 0; if you're not in an anticipation mode all the time; it doesn't matter either way... __________________ *"Gun companies and gun magazines have long had relationships beyond cozy" C.J. Chivers, author "THE GUN"*

July 3, 2006, 08:00 PM	#21
281 Quad Cam Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 937	M. Ayoob may have said that, but he is also aware of the fact that there is no department in America that requires its officer's to carry empty chamber, and I suspect not one of them does. As has been stated, while it may not seem like alot of time, in most cases it is enough for a bad guy to clear 25 or more feet before you can perform it. What about the big scary guy walking down the sidewalk in your direction? Are you going to draw and rack on an innocent man when hes 25+ feet away just incase? Otherwise what if you are practically brushing shoulders by the time big ugly makes a move on you? Your first sign there was any trouble, is being thrown by a large man. Now perform your draw-rack while flying, rolling, or being kicked. perhaps the first sign of trouble is being maced, being hit with a bat, getting nailed by a blackjack. Why on Earth would a criminal advertise his intentions when he can just strike an unsuspecting victim? Well... it doesn't happen very often. So yeah... ambush fever - the belief that crooks, rapists, and kidnappers don't shout "I'm gonna rape and murder you!" from 20+ yards away. Lets try a drill, I don't tell you we are running a drill, or introduce myself. I stand next to you, mace you, straddle you and begin to whale on you while your arms are immobilized... When I choose to stop, and move on to robbing you or stuffing your girlfriend into the back of my van, you perform your draw and rack - and than decide if it is a gross or fine motor movement. Ofcourse, if I haven't rolled you around enough to discover the gun. (No hard feelings meant, but a cold brutal portion of reality is sort of why we are carrying these things to begin with.) No, a loaded chamber will not save you from the above, but it could prove to be one less impediment on the worst day of anybody's life. __________________ "Whats the first aid procedure for consumption of coolant?"

July 3, 2006, 07:06 AM	#1
Magyar Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,581	AMBUSH FEVER! "One in the tube?" No, not another “cocked-n-locked” thread, no minds are changed on those endless arguments. If you want the hammer cocked, that’s your business. However, this is a rationale for many of us carrying w/o “one in the pipe”, safety off, for most autoloaders, not just the1911. M. Ayoob has an expression that he uses whenever he gets in a corner or is challenged on one his points; it starts out something like this: “Show me one documented case of a LEO, that has been killed where slow response time in loading was the primary factor.” (Italics are Ayoob’s only). There aren’t any & suspect the same with the wide use by the Israelis. What we do find are: improper mind-set, hesitancy, & poor tactics usually being the culprit. Too many pistoleros suffer from what I call, “ambush fever”, where they feel that circumstances will dictate pulling out their piece immediately and start firing. If you’re always in a state of White alert and are oblivious to your surrounding, yes it might happen. Most permit holders I know, referring to Cooper’s system again, are more in a Yellow/Orange state being proactive to an impending situation. BTW, I’ve noticed that certain pistol organizations start their competitions with an empty chamber for good reason. Racking a slide is about a normal motor response as flicking a safety or depressing the slide-release lever after a fresh mag is inserted. All of these require practice and can be accomplished expeditiously. If you add safety considerations, for the user & perhaps the edgy public; opinions & law enforcement guidelines are changing. Please, none of the “What happens if your off-hand get shot, etc.?” That is about as remote as your thumb developing a cramp fumbling for the safety & hitting the mag release…. Anyway, this is not an argument or an apology; but a justification. What say you? __________________ *"Gun companies and gun magazines have long had relationships beyond cozy" C.J. Chivers, author "THE GUN"*

July 3, 2006, 07:27 AM	#2
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 3,031	I say, carry however you like. It makes no difference to me if you carry loaded, unloaded, cocked&locked, it's your business, but however you carry practice with it and try some FOF drills and see what works for you.

July 3, 2006, 07:34 AM	#3
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	If you're so intent on playing the odds, just leave the gun at home - it is much more comfortable. I don't know why you carry a gun, but most of us do so to prepare for the unexpected. Your post reflects the fact that you have some definite expectations about what kind of confrontation you're going to have. Congratulations on your omniscience. For the rest of us, you'll pardon our paranoid delusion that an attack might preclude the use of two hands to get one handgun into action. Speaking of "normal motor response", you realize that the normal response to being struck or stabbed is to raise your arm to protect your chest and head. So your plan is good as long as you haven't been struck. What kind of attack are you expecting, again? Real life isn't statistics. If it was we could all just carry 3 rounds, right? Or maybe just a fake gun, since most armed confrontations end without a single shot fired, right? BTW, Israel has very low crime rates and not as many CCWs as you might think. Perhaps armed responses to terrorism in Israel and urban muggings here don't make for very useful comparisons?

July 3, 2006, 08:23 AM	#4
Boondoggie Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2006 Location: NEO Posts: 202	Isn't funny how even among the the few that agree on one thing, there is so much disagreement as a whole. We all agree we should carry, but other then this one simple statement, never the rest shell meet. I guess that's the beauty about about living in the United States of America, nobody can tell YOU how to do something. It's your life, live it as you wish.

July 3, 2006, 08:32 AM	#5
Ben Swenson Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2000 Posts: 1,210	If one in the tube isn't for you, don't carry that way. As Handy points out, chances are fantastic that you will never have to draw your gun, and if you do, chances are you won't have to fire it. Yeah, some people choose to prepare for a situation where they might not have full use of both hands because you're trying to do multiple things, you're being partially restrained, you've been injured, or who knows what else - but what are the chances of that? Probably pretty slim, even in the limited sample of instances where you'd need to have a gun. Everyone plays the odds. Some people don't think a gun is necessary at all. Most are right. Whatever condition you carry, practice, with it. Practice for more than perfectly ideal situations and pray that things never get worse than what you're prepared for.

July 3, 2006, 09:06 AM	#8
Jehzsa Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2004 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 756	Does anybody have a link to the manual for the Israeli draw? Have an inkling that the Barak was specifically designed for it. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg132-e.htm

July 3, 2006, 09:14 AM	#9
ScaryWoody Senior Member Join Date: September 4, 2004 Location: Atlanta Posts: 368	First off, I like your picture included with this thought provoking post. I have been carrying for a few years now. I started off carrying with an empty chamber figuring that I should have time to rack the slide. During my time carrying I have invested in many classes that teach technique and safety. I have come to the realization that in real life scenerios, there is no time to "rack the slide". Most confrontations that occur "out there", occur within a very short distance. Usually, 3-7 feet. That equals about 1 second to assess the situation, react accordingly and put lead down range. A man running at you from 21 feet can cover the ground in about 3 seconds. That still does not allow enough time, at least for me, to assess, react and protect myself. By carrying "cocked and locked" (Glock 19 so not really) I at least have one less thing to worry about if I have to pull and protect.

July 3, 2006, 09:32 AM	#10
Ace On The Line Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 111	I carry a handgun for one reason, protection. My HK P9S .45 ACP has a 7 round magazine. As of yet I've not had to find out how important that +1 round chambered actually is, however its like an ace in the hole if your life is on the line. I say if you carry you want the odds in your favor and that extra round before a reload just might be the one that saves your hide. I also carry two spare mags.

July 3, 2006, 01:32 PM	#13
guntotin_fool Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2004 Posts: 1,446	I know of two police shootings in which HAVING one up the pipe saved the officers life...One incident cost a police officer her life, and her partner was able to draw and kill the assailant before she herself was killed because she was cocked and locked. The other was a cop walking out of the bathroom at a service station and meeting face to face with two armed robbers, he drew and shot both attackers two hits each while the second shooter was trying to make his weapon function. No matter how fast you can rack the slide you would not have been able to do that and survive in those situations. The Israeli method comes about from having almost everybody armed all the time 24-7. They do not expect to be the only one in a gun fight, and they know that within close range, there will be someone with a SMG or a rifle to help out. They are taught that method of carry for two reasons. complaicency may allow them to relax on the safety precautions and with so many day workers coming in to the cities unarmed, the thought is that if one tried to execute a gungrab and use the weapon, the owner would have a moment to react.

July 3, 2006, 02:07 PM	#15
Ausserordeutlich Junior member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 996	What a terrible analogy regarding Ayoob and l.e.! The reason there aren't any documented cases is because l.e.o.'s dont' carry with an empty chamber. That's pretty simple, isn't it? Show me one documented case where a non-l.e.o. has been sucessfully sued for having used a modified weapon in a legitimate case of self-defense. (You won't find any.) Wonder what Mr. Ayoob says about that one, since not using a modified weapon is something that he insists on in his seminars.

July 3, 2006, 02:08 PM	#16
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	How is it "handicapping the argument" when we point out that most every self defense shooting is within 5 yards, and that suggests that at least one of your arms might already be a bit busy? The only handicapping I see is your prepackaged thinking about what is or is not likely to happen when you are mugged. It is not a question of "time", per se, but ability to get multiple things done in a situation that is, by definition, "violent" and outside your ability to control without lethal force. "Hey, let go a minute. I've got to load this."

July 3, 2006, 02:09 PM	#17
Ausserordeutlich Junior member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 996	Handy, you're being absolutely too logical. Don't you know that all attacks happen @ 7 yds.???

July 3, 2006, 06:52 PM	#18
Lurper Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 943	"First of all, there is no difference in time...." ???!!! I'd like to see that, and if you really believe that there is no difference in time then this discussion is pointless. Many will hold on to a belief in spite of opposing reality. I don't know of any LE in the US that carry without a round chambered. Just because the Israeli's use a technique doesn't mean it has any more validity than a technique the Mexicans use. A pistol with a round chambered will be significantly faster every time! And no less safe in the hands of a PROPERLY trained shooter. You will always have the occasional weird event happen in spite of the norm, in statistics, these are called outlyers. Any well made pistol is safer than the average firearm owner/shooter even with a round in the chamber. If you aren't comfortable carrying with one in the chamber, by all means don't! However to try to convince others that 1. it is safer to carry without one in the chamber 2. it is equally as fast is analgous to The Emperor's New Clothes!

July 3, 2006, 07:31 PM	#20
MidnightRambler Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 146	I asked my NRA instructor about this in a class, and he had me stand 25 feet away with a Glock 17 using snap caps. I did not have one in the chamber. He told me when he was going to run at me and challenged me to draw the gun, rack it and bring it up to fire before he reached me. I could not do it. His lesson was "if you're going to carry, carry with one in the chamber". I was in orange condition for the drill and knew he was going to run at me, yet couldn't rack it in time to fire.

July 4, 2006, 12:27 AM	#22
ranburr Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2006 Location: TX Posts: 1,278	Quite possibly the stupidest thread ever posted on this forum. ranburr

July 4, 2006, 01:57 AM	#24
banditt007 Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Posts: 694	to be safe i generally carry without a magazine in the gun, i keep the gun on me and the magazine in the car. In an event i may need to use the gun it would be one swift movement to dive into the car, load the mag, rack the slide aim and fire. :barf: If you dont feel safe carrying one in the chamber, you shouldnt be carrying a gun IMO.

July 4, 2006, 03:33 AM	#25
NwG Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Posts: 24	This should really be a non issue.. IMO If you don't feel comfortable with a round in the chamber, you are not compleatly comfortable with your skills IMO.. Please show me ANY quality tactical shooting school that would teach this method... " First of all, there is no difference in time" I will not be the first one to call total BS on that one.. "Well before the pistol is raised to sight a target; it is loaded." And what happens if something goes wrong when chambering a round? What if you happen to short stroke and don't strip a round off the mag? .. Click... The loudest sound you will ever hear in a gun fight.. "Please, none of the “What happens if your off-hand get shot, etc.?” That is about as remote as your thumb developing a cramp fumbling for the safety & hitting the mag release…." #1 You are MOST likely to be shot in the hand while presenting you weapon.. They are directly in front of the primary target (COM) #2Fine motor skills are right out the window in a gun fight.. Most people who have been in one will tell you there hands felt like a pair of flippers.. As none of us know how we will react in such a situation we must train for the worst possable event.. Things like racking with the whole palm and four fingers to get the best grip possable on the slide, racking the slide after a magazine change rather than hitting the release (This one is up in the air with me but there are some good points to racking the slide.. Like full recoils spring compression to return the pistol to battery) As many have posted why, WHY would you limit yourself in so many ways? The "I will most likely have time to rack the slide because of X,Y and Z sats" is just about the worst I have ever seen... We carry firearms for the possability of that one time, when everything turns to S#it and our lives may depend on being armed.. That ONE time when the "stats" are NOT on you side... To limit yourself in ANY way is just plain stupid.. Not all badguys out there are stupid street scum we usually think of in firearms training.. You may have to fight somebody who is better and possably faster than you.. They may have more training than you.. All in all it's just a stupid idea.... __________________ 1911..... "Fear of death will not prevent dying - but it may prevent living."