What Do You Do If You Are Involved In A Shooting?

[Oregongundude]

I Found these guidelines for CCW holders if your involved in a shooting. I thought they would be helpful information. It's a nice reminder for me.

You have the right to have an attorney. You have the right to refuse to answer questions. You have a right to exercise these rights. You also have the right to appear suspicious even if you're innocent of any wrong doing, but why would you want to? Right, you wouldn't.


It may not look to good to the officers on the scene if you appear to be uncooperative. So be cooperative in an intelligent way. In a way that helps the police do their job while still maintaining your freedom, your rights, and your credibility.


Do not lie to the police
Do not make stuff up to make your actions look better
Do not exaggerate
Say as little as possible, without alienating the investigators, until you speak with an attorney. Be cooperative but inform the police you need time to regain your composure. Convey the following points
Make the point that you were in fear for your life and that you tried to stop (and if true took actions to avoid) the attack. I said stop the attack. I did not say kill the attacker. There is a difference. If the attacker dies as a result of your actions, so be it, that is different than having the intentions of killing the attacker - which may be justifiable but it is a hell of a lot more diplomatic and smarter to express concerns for your safety than running at the mouth about "killing that son of a bitch." Your primary concern was about keeping yourself safe and alive not killing that predator.
Get in contact with a criminal defense attorney as soon as possible
Know this - the police are not your friends. They are professionals who have a job to do and you are on a crime scene. They do not know if you are the victim or the perpetrator. They do not know if your actions are reasonable, they are trying to determine that. They are there to investigate what has happened. Let them do their job, but don't hurt yourself in the process by running at the mouth.
After you have communicated the necessary information to the police - you should be in a position to read their reactions to your story and you may get a feel for how they will handle this in their report. Be a sympathetic figure. Once they have gotten their information from you, remember Silence is Golden.


Provide the police with the basic information they need. How the events went down and that you used deadly force because you were fearful for your life. You resisted to save your life. Right now, you are too upset to go into any further details and that you will speak with them as soon as you have a chance to calm down (within the next 24-36 hours). Use this time to get an attorney. Follow your attorney's advice.


There's no nice way to shoot someone.

[Pointer]

Good stuff... thank you

[Mikeyboy]

50% good advice...50% anti LEO. I would just "line up" a Criminal Defense attorney if the shooting was done while defending your home because 99% of the time you will not need one. If your shooting involves some outside altercation (even if it is in your driveway), contact an attorney. As long as you tell the truth and you are not hot tempered or acting like a wannabe cop or rambo, you will be fine.

[jtb1967]

DELETED by Mod

[springmom]

Of course, you may be an incoherent blob of shock and unable to say a blinkin' thing. It is a good idea to have in mind who you would call. Probably NOT your spouse, btw...you need somebody who can be a little less emotional than they will be. Your minister/priest/rabbi/whatever, your lawyer, or a really good friend. Somebody who can look out for you at a time that you may not really be very functional yourself.

BTW, our CHL instructor noted that if you ever have to shoot, call TWO ambulances. One for the other guy, and one for yourself. You may not have a scratch on you, but you're going to likely need the attention.

Here's hoping none of us will ever need this advice.

Springmom

[Samurai]

All of this is good, but also remember that when you are shaking like a leaf in the wind, coming down from a huge adrenaline dump after having just wondered whether you were about to die, your tendency is going to be to spill your guts. You will jumble words. You will say things that you didn't mean to say, things that aren't true the way you accidentally said them. The English language will leave you. You won't be intelligible, and anything that you say will be misunderstood/misconstrued/taken out of context/USED AGAINST YOU in a court of law.

The only real thing you should be able to say at the moment the police arrive is, "That guy was going to kill me!" This statement had BETTER be true. Otherwise, you probably weren't justified in shooting at him. After that, the police should have everything they need. If they don't, they can get it for themselves, from someone ELSE.

Once you've made the only relevant statement you need to make, I see absolutely NO reason not to clam-up. If the cop has any more questions, tell him you are too rattled, and you can't talk right now. If he insists that you tell him what happened, repeat that you are too shaken up, and you can't talk right now. Then, ask if you can call for a ride home. If he won't let you leave, ask if you're under investigation, or if you're being charged with anything. If he says no, but still won't let you leave, ask for a lawyer and clam-up. If, at any point, he says that you'll have to come with him, ask for a lawyer and clam-up.

And, above all else, if you're not sure whether or not you need a lawyer, the answer is: YES, you need one. Ask for a lawyer, and clam-up!

[atlctyslkr]

You resisted to save your life. Right now, you are too upset to go into any further details and that you will speak with them as soon as you have a chance to calm down (within the next 24-36 hours).

I'm sure 24-36 hours in jail will really calm you down.

Say nothing and use your phone call wisely. It may be a while before you get that call so practice keeping quiet in your spare time.

Following the logic of this post I might as well send a letter to the police letting them know I might stand my ground someday and to be ready!

[Oregongundude]

Handle the situation anyway you want. I just think that a lot of people that won't react with candor in this situation. Anyway, I hope we never have to be in this situation. But it's possible someday to have to deal with this issue if you shoot a BG is self defense. Actually, I would perfer to have the BG's die in the shoot out to avoid any kind of civil suits after the BG's recovered from his wounds.

[Mikeyboy]

You know what ORdude you have a point. I have been known to say some dumb stuff at the wrong time. I have said "Have a nice day" to a widow at her husband's funeral I guess I could slip up and say something stupid like" he got what he deserved" or something that would raise red flags to a responding LEO.

[Oregongundude]

If I kill someone in self defense I don't think I would have the guts to go to his funeral I really think you would be the last person the family of the bad guy you killed in self defense would like to attend the furneral.

But if you want to attend please do, I'm sure you'll be the center of attention.

[BillCA]

Remember too that if you are "taken downtown" and offered that phone call, there is no guarantee someone isn't listening to at least your half of the conversation. What you don't want is some officer listening to you call your wife.

"Honey, call Dewey, Cheatum & Howe and tell counselor Howe I'm in jail."
"Yah. Some guy tried to rob me."
"I can't go into it right now. Just call Howe."
"I dunno, an ambulance took him. I don't know yet."
"Look, just call Howe, will you?"
"No they're not telling me much. Will you just call the #(*$ lawyers?"
"Dammit, I don't give a $*#@ about that dirty $*@#, just call the #(*$ lawyers! Now!"
"Okay. Good. Thank you."
"Bye."


And for what it's worth, once you've made a preliminary statement to the cops -- who you are, the essentials of what happened -- if they keep asking questions, tell them you're too shaken and add.. "I think I'm gonna be sick!" Usually they'll not want to be real close to you after that.

[riverkeeper]

About 18 months ago some punk-@$$ed punk stomped a 60-something guy to death in my fair city during a robbery where the victim had nuthin. Punk pled out cuz his lying-sac cronies couldn't keep their storys together and punk did a sloppy job setting an alibi.

Both families attended the sentencing which was more severe than punk-@$$es' punk-@$$ed family expected and probably less than the victim's thought was fair...something like 20-25 years.

One of the Punk-@$$ Clan hollered, "What do you think, the old guy was going to live forever?"

Yelling, pushing, shoving and minor fists flashed...til my city's finest, who were there in force for the occasion, stopped it.

[MADISON]

Call 911 and request an Ambulance.
If you make any comment, without an attorney say "I shot to live".
Do not:
Say I shot somebody.

[Ausserordeutlich]

Sometimes we tend to make things more complicated than necessary. If I'm involved in a legitimate self-defense shooting and the police arrive, they're going to see me, a Republican, standing there with a firearm, and they're going to see a Democrat lying dead/wounded. They'll know who the good guy is.

[GeorgeF]

Serious question - does a self-defense shooting always have to be a life and death affair? What if it were a situation where you were being threatened with bodily harm? Do you have to take 'X' number of punches before you can draw your weapon or are you justified from the beginning?

Obviously witnesses help, but I for one dont relish the idea of getting beat up, losing teeth, etc....

Very interested in hearing other people's opinions/views.

Thanks!

[brickeyee]

Lawyer up.
While some of the police may agree with your actions if they are justified, they are not he ones who will be making a decision to prosecute. That is made by a Commonwealth’s Attorney (or State's Attorney). Local politics will determine any lean they have.
Do not mislead anyone, just say you are confused and want to speak with your attorney. This should bring any further questioning to a complete halt.
Do as requested, but say nothing further.

[gvf]

I have been in the situation of calling 911, and when they arrived, seeing them tense when they saw what was a cell phone in my hand but which, at night, can look like a handgun; they took me, for a second, for the assailant I was calling about. Based on that, before I worried about legal problems, after any shooting I was involved in, I would make sure I told the 911 operator clearly to alert the police that one of the men at the scene had a legally registered handgun and made sure I described myself well. This would be especially true if I had I had to keep the weapon out for any reason.Make clear to the cops that YOU are not the assailant. Then you can deal with police questions.

[tepin]

How about always carring an unregistered weapon, wipe off the prints after the shooting, then toss it in the river?? Just kidding

WOW!

[Doug.38PR]

You may not have a scratch on you, but you're going to likely need the attention.

why, if your not hurt?

[choochboost]

Originally Posted by GeorgeF

Serious question - does a self-defense shooting always have to be a life and death affair? What if it were a situation where you were being threatened with bodily harm? Do you have to take 'X' number of punches before you can draw your weapon or are you justified from the beginning?

You can only use deadly force against someone who is threatening your life. In most cases, a fist-fight does not call for the use of deadly force. There was a case in California where a man shot and killed another who was instigated a fight. He was found guilty and lost his appeal on the second try.

Here's what the court decided:
"The only intent on the part of the victim was to engage defendant in fisticuffs, to "beat him up," and the evidence did not establish that the victim was so physically overwhelming that defendant had reason to fear great bodily injury from such an encounter."

[Mannlicher]

my attorney has advised me to not discuss anything about the incident until he gets there. What you say can and probably will be used against you.

[James K]

First, you are obliged to answer police questions up to the point where you receive the Miranda warning. If you claim to be too shook up to do so, you better make it convincing. After you hear "right to remain silent", exercise that right; say nothing unless your attorney is present. But don't babble or run at the mouth. Most specially, don't brag, or mouth off about your shooting ability, your guns, your ammunition, how you'd "rather be tried by 12..." Don't go beyond the facts. And whatever you do, don't go into a racist rant if the victim happens to be of a different color.

A major point to consider for gun lovers is that if you shoot someone or even fire your gun, you WILL be ordered to drop your gun. If you are so in love with your sooperdooper sexed up, cool, 1911 that you refuse to allow it to be damaged by dropping, you may well die with it in your hand.

If you carry a gun, keep an attorney on retainer. Always. Make sure his phone will be covered 24/7. Memorize the number, they will allow you a phone call; they don't have to allow you to have your wallet or your PA with your address list.

Think about bail. Bail in a shooting can range into the hundreds of thousands. A bail bondsman wants 10 percent as his fee, and that is NOT refundable. So if your bond is $500k, someone better find $50k pretty quick or you can enjoy jail food for a long time. Before carrying a gun, consider whether you want your parents or your wife to have to get a second mortgage to get you out of jail.

And don't even think of skipping bail. If you think cops are bad, they are pansies compared to bail agents. Those guys will follow you anywhere and they do not always play by the rules the cops are supposed to follow.

Jim

[Oregongundude]

I think this very useful information if anyone has to fire upon another human in an act of self defense. I know we all would like to be prepared this in case this this grin reality ever happens, and I know most normal law abiding people wouldn't want this experience, nor would I. However, a percentage of us may face this possibility some day, and how we react could have an impact on how the shooting is viewed by LEO and the courts.

I think the bottom line is to try to avoid this situation if at all possible and get a good lawyer if you have to shoot someone in self defense.

Once again thanks for your input to this post.

[brickeyee]

"First, you are obliged to answer police questions up to the point where you receive the Miranda warning."

You are not "obliged" to do any such thing.
Do not answer any questions. Not a single one.
"I need to speak with my attorney." is the only phrase you should say.
Nothing else.
You have just shot someone. Self defense is an 'affirmative defense'. This means you admit to the shooting (and possibly a homicide) and then must prove your actions justified (or excusable, or other state specific language).
About the only thing you must do in some locations is identifying yourself.
Hand your drivers license to the police and SHUT UP.

[Jeff22]

Posted Jun 19, 05:25
AFTER BEING INVOLVED IN A SHOOTING INCIDENT:
From John Farnam of Defense Training International www.defense-training.com

14 June 2006
Two important points from Skip Gochenour's lecture at the 2006 National Tactical Invitational.. Skip is involved with the criminal justice system daily, and these two points should be kept in mind by all of us:
In the wake of a deadly-force incident in which you were involved:

(1) Let your lawyer do all the talking!

(2) "Self-defense" is a justification only available when your actions were intentional. "Self-defense" may not be invoked to justify" accidents!
Your lawyer can have his facts all mixed up. He can tell outrageous lies.
You can fire him on Monday morning, and probably should! However, when talking with investigators and prosecutors, HE CAN GET YOUR SIDE OF THE STORY BEFORE THEM WITHOUT STATEMENTS THAT ARE ATTRIBUTABLE TO YOU! You needn't worry about what he says, to anyone. You need only worry about what you say.

It 's your statements, even inadvertent ones, that will come back to haunt you.

For example: When you intimate or even suggest, however subtly, that your use of deadly force was, in fact, accidental, from that point forward "self-defense" will no longer be available to you as a justification for what you did. A negligent discharge (ND) that results in an injury or death is a negligent homicide, and it cannot be subsequently converted to "self-defense," no matter what the person was doing when he was shot. STATEMENTS AS INNOCENT-SOUNDING AS, "I 'M SORRY." "I DIDN'T MEAN TO" or "I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS HAPPENED" ARE ALL THUS PERNICIOUSLY INCRIMINATING. Such statements must never leave your lips!

Those of us who go armed neglect the foregoing at our peril.
/John


created by [email protected]
Copyright © 2006 by DTI, Inc. All rights reserved.
created on Wednesday June 14, 2006 23:59:2 MST



15June06
Refinements, from a student who is a well-known and respected criminal defense attorney:
"I cannot count the number of times I've heard a client say, "They wanted to interview me, and we talked a little, but I didn't tell them ANYTHING. I was very careful.' Then, I get the discovery, including the report on the interview. It invariably includes a full confession, plus additional damaging statements, repeated multiple times. Great beginning for our defensive strategy!

The only thing that I believe a person should tell police who arrive at a hot scene (not all lawyers agree) is:

(1) 'Thank heaven you're here!'

(2) 'I'm the one who called.'

(3) 'A man broke into our house and tried to murder us.' (adjust as ecessary)
(4) 'I'll be happy to answer all your questions, as soon as my lawyer is here.'
The only additional statements I advise are:

Tell arriving officers about: (1) active threats, (2) innocent people in the area (3) evidence, and (4) witnesses. These are important to the case, to the safety of officers and others, and may not be obvious.

Those statements, while still not risk-free, are appropriate and reasonable, and I think there is a moral duty to provide information which DIRECTLY effects the safety of officers and the discovery of truth."
/John


created by [email protected]
Copyright © 2006 by DTI, Inc. All rights reserved.
created on Thursday June 15, 2006 23:59:2 MST

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