The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 7, 2008, 03:23 AM   #1
mellow_c
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,862
DPMS AR-10 or SOCOM 16????

Guys, this is my first post. I became a new member just so I could ask you all this question! I want a .308~! But even after doing a good 30 or 40 hours of internet research, I still dont know which one. These are the rifles I'm considering. a DPMS AR-10 AP-4 16" with the flat top. a Springfield Arms SOCOM 16. And a Springfield Arms Scout Squad.

I'm not to worried about the huge price difference between the AR-10 and the M1A's. But there are a few other deciding factors. My first concern is that the SOCOM 16 might be to loud, is the Scout Squad a little quieter? I'm sure the AR-10 is. Next, I want to be able to shoot inexpensive ammo, surplus would be nice. I also want absolute reliability, to the point were if I keep my rifle decently clean, there will be no reason for it to ever fail, ever! I think that mostly covers it.

Which ever rifle I chose, I would keep it stock, and probably just use the iron sights. So all the additional options with the AR-10 don't really matter to me. All I really want is absolute reliability. I really need the opinions of anyone who owns or has shot any of these rifles, but I would really appreciate any advice from anyone at all... all I ask is that you explain yourself. Thanx guys, I'm looking forward to chatting with all of you!
mellow_c is offline  
Old January 7, 2008, 05:06 AM   #2
wayne in boca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2005
Posts: 345
I have all three of your choices (we must think alike).There is no more cheap 7.62 X 51 surplus out there,so that's not much of a factor.All .308 caliber rifles are loud,you don't want loud,take up sewing.I can't tell much if any difference between them that way.What I can tell you is that you should be very happy with any of the three,because they are all tremendous rifles.I have had one failure to feed with my Scout,in the first 100 rounds fired through it with a new mag.None ever in the Socom or AP4.If I could only keep one,it would be tough to make a decision.
wayne in boca is offline  
Old January 7, 2008, 07:58 AM   #3
SR420
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2005
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 3,336
Quote:
Which ever rifle I chose, I would keep it stock, and probably just use the iron sights.
Of the 3 you listed the Scout will give you the best iron sights.
The M14 type rifle with an 18.0" barrel is also my favorite configuration.
Look for an older Bush model built with USGI parts (bolt, trigger group and op rod).


Last edited by SR420; January 7, 2008 at 10:27 AM.
SR420 is offline  
Old January 7, 2008, 09:58 AM   #4
john in jax
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2005
Posts: 1,177


I've got a SOCOM 16, a DPMS LR-308 and a DPMS AP4 . . . and I've got to suggest the AP4. Nothing wrong with a SOCOM or Scout rifle, but DPMS has got the .308 AR thing down to a science and is turning out VERY reliable and very accurate rifles.

FWIW I'm looking to buy another DPMS, a LR-308B (18" bull bbl) this time. My SOCOM 16 may have to go in order to make it happen.
__________________
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe
john in jax is offline  
Old January 7, 2008, 04:25 PM   #5
mellow_c
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,862
OK... Well it sounds like they will all be really loud, so I'm glad to have that out of the way. And Thanx to all of you guys, It was great to get up this morning and have some opinions to read!

So Now I ask, since you all seam to own the SOCOM 16 and AR-10. Wich controls do you like better? The SOCOM controls seam simpler and more intuitive. But Maybe the AR-10 controls are just the same once you get used to them? Also I know when you buy the DSMP AR-10 it comes with a hard case, 2 20 rnd mags, a sling, and a cleaning kit... What does the SOCOM 16 come with?

I was really considering the Scout Squad. But if it's just as loud as the SOCOM, and $100 more. I might just go with the SOCOM, (I like the sights on the SOCOM because they are better for getting on target quicker up close, but the scouts are better for long range, so I'm still not sure about that.

The AR-10 is about $300-400 cheaper than the SOCOM 16. I feel in my heart that the SOCOM 16 is the way to go. but with it's price I have a long way to go! Please guys... give me some more reasons and opinions! I'll never be able to shoot any of these guns until I buy them, so I'm relying totally on you all! Thanx
mellow_c is offline  
Old January 7, 2008, 04:29 PM   #6
Bazooka Joe71
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2007
Posts: 125
I recently just bought a DPMS LR-308B and love it so far...I picked this instead of a socom or armalite AR 10 so I could spend a bit more on optics without totally breaking the bank.



John, you won't be disappointed.
Bazooka Joe71 is offline  
Old January 7, 2008, 05:38 PM   #7
Caeser23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2006
Posts: 242
decisions, decisions. I'm in the same boat except add the ptr 91 and dsa fal
Caeser23 is offline  
Old January 7, 2008, 07:19 PM   #8
azredhawk44
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,465
I'm very pleased with my Springfield M1A Scout with 18" barrel.

It will shoot very accurately when coupled with a well practiced shooter; I am not a great shooter and I'm certain I can make improvements both to my form and my handloads, but with 168gr match ammo in this rifle and iron sights I can hold 1.5MOA with 5 shot strings.

If you want to shoot cheaply though, scratch anything in .308. Go get a .223, 7.62x39 or 7.62x54R. A good rifle you should seriously consider instead for cheap shooting is a Romanian PSL. They shoot x54R and come pre-scoped, costing around $700 or so IIRC. With competent handloads and rifleman's hands they are supposed to be capable of 1MOA shooting.

The only drawback to Springfield rifles is the current use of non-milspec parts as mentioned earlier. The op-rod and receiver are cast rather than forged. I think the bolts are forged though; there is significant critiques of the Norinco M14 rifles with cast bolts that does not seem to follow to the new M1A's from Springfield. My only complaint with my Springer is the part of the receiver designed to interface with an optics mount. My ARMS #18 doesn't interface well since Springfield makes their receivers a bit thicker than most other makers.

If you want a M14 with less room for critique or complaint, look into Fulton Armory or Smith Enterprises. But the springfields are still very good rifles.

ETA: Everyone I've ever spoken with on the Internet has been un-enthusiastic about the accuracy of their purchased SOCOM rifle. The best people seem to be getting is about 3-4MOA from match grade ammo.

This thread should give you a bit of an idea about SOCOM accuracy. Good M14 resource.
http://www.m14firinglineforum.com/up...ad.php?t=47030
azredhawk44 is offline  
Old January 7, 2008, 10:10 PM   #9
bigghoss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2006
Location: Pueblo, Colorado
Posts: 2,664
personally I prefer the socom16 but I also really like the modularity of the ar platform, wich is why I got an ar15 over a sig556 and why I will probably get an ar10. DPMS also makes ar10's in .243win(wich is a necked down .308) wich I like the thought of. but since you don't care about all that I'd get the socom. if you do get the itch there are still a ton of upgrades for the M1A platform as well.
__________________
I don't collect guns, I accumulate them.
bigghoss is offline  
Old January 7, 2008, 11:51 PM   #10
ostrobothnian
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 281
Quote:
decisions, decisions. I'm in the same boat except add the ptr 91 and dsa fal
Since you are still in the decision making process why not have a look at these two platforms. Reliability? You got it.
ostrobothnian is offline  
Old January 8, 2008, 03:13 AM   #11
mellow_c
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,862
This is great!

Keep it coming guys! Your all giving me alot of great ideas. I'm sure this Thread will be helpful to someone else in the same boat as me down the road! I'm Still unsure for the moment.

Right now I'm kinda liking the idea of Getting the DPMS AR-10, AND a Stainless Mini 14. Since after buying extra 20 round mags, A hard case, sling and ammo for the SOCOM 16, it would be only $100-200 less than it would be to buy both those guns, and then I can still have an M14, just mini. People have made me concerned about the non forged parts on the SOCOM 16, although I cant imagine they would ever fail. I'm starting to forget about the Scout Squad, since it's longer, heavier, and more expensive. Even though I know I would not regret getting it.

Anyway, I have two last serious questions for you guys (but please, keep sending your opinions).... What kind of warranties come with the DPMS AR-10, and what kind of warranties come with the SOCOM 16? Also, what comes along with the SOCOM 16 besides the rifle it's self and the 10 round mag? Anything? Even a hard case?

I can never thank you guys enough, I would hate to be the guy going to the gun store and saying "I want that one cause it looks cool and feels nice" I know I can trust you all with your opinions and you've helped me more than you may know in what will probably be the most expensive gun purchase of my life.

Oh, and FYI. Jeff from www.gunblast.com thinks I should go with the DPMS AR-10 lol.
mellow_c is offline  
Old January 8, 2008, 08:19 AM   #12
SR420
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2005
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 3,336
Springfield offers a lifetime warranty to the original purchaser. If it breaks - they will fix it.
NEW mil-spec forged parts are hitting the market. New gas cylinders are currently available,
new 1 piece op rods are in production and new bolts are on the way. Also, SEI has a new
GLFS for the SOCOM 16 that allows you to use a standard sight and a Noveski type DC Vortex
that will accept the Fisher/SEI sound suppressor

Get the SOCOM 16, some new CMI mags (20 & 25 rounds) and find some ammo.
SR420 is offline  
Old January 8, 2008, 11:11 AM   #13
john in jax
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2005
Posts: 1,177
mellow for me the DPMS or AR-15 is the better choice - - please note I said better choice and not better rifle.

For me:

1) I can swap mags in the DPMS about twice as fast as I can in the SOCOM

2) The AR style rifle disassembles, cleans up and assembles in about half the time of the SOCOM

3) If you keep a complete bolt and carrier on-hand and any problem arises it can be swapped out in seconds on the DPMS compared to many minutes on any M1A

4) Accessories, mounting options, various stocks, etc . . . are all more common and MUCH more affordable for the AR style rifle

5) IMO the short, M4-style, DPMS AP4, is a lighter, quicker handling rifle than the SOCOM.

I'll have to pull out the books to look up the warranty info, but my gut feeling is if you can show that any issue is a manufacturing defect and not something you did or caused then they will cover it.

BTW the SOCOMs with the muzzle brake will be the loudest rifles of the guns you are considering.

__________________
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe
john in jax is offline  
Old January 8, 2008, 03:33 PM   #14
Bazooka Joe71
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2007
Posts: 125
DPMS's warranty is only for 3 years...But it doesn't really matter, because any malf's the rifle will have you can fix with the field repair kits you should have on hand anyway.
Bazooka Joe71 is offline  
Old January 8, 2008, 08:26 PM   #15
chuter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2007
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
Posts: 115
Years ago I made the investment in an AR-10T. I did quite a bit of research on which .308 counter-sniper weapon to purchase. Although I'm a big Garand fan I went with the AR style because of the way recoil is felt, how the muzzle reacts when fired and how quickly the target could be reacquired for follow up shots. I tested both styles (M14 versus AR) and a couple different AR types at the time. The AR-10T delivered top accuracy, excellent trigger control and adjustment and overall top quality manufacturing. You may want to check each manufacturers site for current warranty policies.
chuter is offline  
Old January 8, 2008, 09:02 PM   #16
mellow_c
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,862
Alright, So I've pretty much decided I'm gona go with the DPMS AP4 AR-10. A few of you guys said you have that gun. I was just wondering what kind of accuracy I can expect out of the 16" barrel. Also where should I get extra mags for it? The ones from DPMS are like $50. I can get a brand new one (not even the floor model) With the flat top and Quad rail from Jenson arms in Loveland CO. For about $1270 after Tax. Sounds good since it comes with everything I need.

I read on the DPMS Web site That using pretty much any type of surplus or reloaded ammo will void your warranty. They go on to list all the reasons why not to use surplus, and I was impressed with their explanation. I'm confident that if I use decent ammo that I'll never have a problem with the gun, and even though it will be more expensive to shoot, I will probably learn to take more time with each bullet. Hopefully improving my skills more than if I just went and shot a bunch of surplus.

With that said, I might buy a Mini 14 down the road to shoot the cheaper .223 and use surplus in that. And use my AR-10 for more serious "make every shot count" type shooting. Well, thanx to all of you for your posts. I feel like I can sleep better at night now that I'm not running 3 or 4 different guns though my mind as soon as my head hits the pillow. lol. I'm still open to more input though, I have to wait another pay check or two before I can buy it. So who knows, I might still change my mind. Thanx again everyone!
mellow_c is offline  
Old January 8, 2008, 09:03 PM   #17
mellow_c
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,862
Oh by the way

What does MOA mean?
mellow_c is offline  
Old January 8, 2008, 09:04 PM   #18
DnPRK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2001
Location: LC, Ca
Posts: 1,917
MOA = minute of angle = 1/60th of a degree = 1.047 inches at 100 yards

The DPMS AP-4 is the best choice.
DnPRK is offline  
Old January 8, 2008, 10:06 PM   #19
Bazooka Joe71
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2007
Posts: 125
Mellow,

$1270 is MSRP...DO NOT pay MSRP.

I know where you can get it for a couple hundred cheaper, plus $27.50 for mags shipped. PM me if you want to know more.


Also, what distances will you be shooting? I am FAR from an expert, but if you are taking long distance shots, you might be better served with a bit longer barrel...

Once again, I am no expert, but I have heard that the biggest differences in velocities is from the 16" barrel to the 18" barrel.(Can't tell you from experience, because I don't have a radar gun that fast.)

Just my .02, so its not worth much.

Edit: Oh, and BTW not all milsurp ammo voids the warranty. The lithuanian milsurp is great ammo.
Bazooka Joe71 is offline  
Old January 8, 2008, 11:07 PM   #20
rugernut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2007
Location: dfw
Posts: 130
maybe off topic but you wrote, to shoot cheap.get yourself a CMP service grade garand and 1500 rds of ammo for a thousand bucks. thats a pretty good deal if i say so myself.
rugernut is offline  
Old February 11, 2008, 02:42 AM   #21
mellow_c
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,862
well, this is it. I've finally got the money. Tomorrow I'm going to buy my new DPMS AP4 Quad Rail. I'm excited. I wish I could find some "torture tests" about them. I saw the SOCOM 2 on TV get blown 20 feet into the air by an explosive on Guns and Ammo TV and then work perfectly like it was brand new "the show was sponserd by DPMS, lol" I wish I could see some of the with the DPMS. Also someone told me how horrible the AR platform is because it "[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]s where it Eats" as apposed to the M1A style where the gas moves a Rod instead. But I think it would take a lot of rounds and a lot of neglect to freeze up the DPMS, even in a combat situation, provided you clean it every day. So I'm gona get it, and I'm sure I'll be happy. I can get American Eagle ammo "wich is suposed to be accurate and clean" for only $12.00 a box of 20. I guess after this I'll go save $500 to get a nice AK-47, they are always a sure thing, just incase a problem should ever arise with the DPMS. The SOCOM still seams like a good deal, and the Life time Warranty is very tempting, so maybe down the road if I dont like my DPMS for some crazy reason, I'll trade it up for a newer version of the SOCOM 16. Thanx again everyone.
mellow_c is offline  
Old February 11, 2008, 03:21 AM   #22
RockyMtnTactical
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2006
Location: Western US
Posts: 1,961
Be sure to post pics and give us a range report!
__________________
https://battlebornreview.com/
RockyMtnTactical is offline  
Old February 11, 2008, 12:21 PM   #23
shooter_john
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2002
Location: ALABAMA
Posts: 1,472
Good Call!

I was just about to make my vote for the DPMS, but I see you've already decided on it... If yours turns out like mine did, you won't be dissapointed! I sold my CETME and my Polytech M14 when I got my LR308.
__________________
TROTAC.com
shooter_john is offline  
Old February 12, 2008, 11:54 AM   #24
navajo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2005
Posts: 129
choice

My truck gun is an AR 10 carbine. Short and handy. Come to think of it, I haven't fired my SAI NM for a couple of years. Most of my range time is with one or all of my AR 10s.
navajo is offline  
Old February 15, 2008, 03:49 AM   #25
mellow_c
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,862
I got it!

I got it guys! Man, wow, whew! what a nice gun, I like the rear sight that you can flip between a big and small hole to switch between long and short range shooting. When I first brought it home and decided to clean it, I was a little hesitant, This is my First AR style rifle, but I was able to decipher the instruction manual enough to know what to oil, and how much to use. I was able to take apart and reassemble the whole gun for basic cleaning (aside from anything to do with the trigger) without any problem! I have yet to shoot it. We have been having up and down weather here in Colorado, and I want a real long and nice day so I can take my time shooting the first 25 rounds (you have to clean the barrel every time you fire a cartridge for the first 25 shots, and then once every 10 to 100) I'm also waiting for a front sight adjustment tool that I ordered for $17 so I can sight it in the first day to be sure everything is right with the gun. I probably wont be posting any pics, but I'll be happy to let everyone know how the gun preforms in my hands and what type of ammo and shooting conditions I'm in. I bought 120 rounds of American Eagle .308 Win 150 grain to break it in with. I've heard good things about that ammo, and it's only $12.00 a box of 20 from Jensen Arms in Loveland. Thanx again for all the posts!
mellow_c is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.09753 seconds with 7 queries