Military Vintage rifles

[Ignition Override]

You might be surprised reading about the MN: "7.62x54r.net".

[Tikirocker]

I own K98's, Mosin Nagant and Enfields and I though I love em all my vote always goes to the Enfields - it's generally the nut behind the bolt that determines accuracy rather than the rifle. If you're a good shooter your rifle will be accurate.

[RDak]

If you like the K98, Mitchell Arms sells some great ones IMHO. A little pricey though.

http://www.mauser.org/rifles/german_k98/index.htm

+1 on the Swiss K31. Russian types also.

Can you tell I like old military rifles?

[garryc]

Mitchell Arms sells some great ones IMHO

Mitchell basically arsenal refininshes those K98's, just like the russians do with 91/30's and the like. And, just like the russian 91/30's, the bore might be screwed up. I've seen many that had washed out bores or evidence of pitting. If the bore is crisp and has no evidence of pits then it's probably good. I don't even look at them anymore. I consider them no more than fluffed up over priced junk. You can buy several Yugos for the price of a mitchell.

[Tikirocker]

Garry has it 100% right ... spend ANY time among Mauser officianados and you quickly learn that Mitchells Mausers are synonymous with expensive fakes.

[Darren007]

Avoid Mitchells Mausers like the plague!!!

They are nothing more than standard russian captured K98s that they clean up real nice, polish the bolt in to a completely unauthentic in the white finish. And their advertising is borderline fraudulent.

The poster above was correct...spend anytime around Mauser addicts (like me) and you'll see just how hated mitchells is.

[Fat White Boy]

I own Mosins, K98's and a K-31. The K-31 is my favorite, by far...

[RDak]

Mitchell basically arsenal refininshes those K98's, just like the russians do with 91/30's and the like. And, just like the russian 91/30's, the bore might be screwed up. I've seen many that had washed out bores or evidence of pitting. If the bore is crisp and has no evidence of pits then it's probably good. I don't even look at them anymore. I consider them no more than fluffed up over priced junk. You can buy several Yugos for the price of a mitchell.

Well there you go!! I'm glad I never bought one. Disregard my post!! (I did meet a guy at the range who did like his though a few years back.)

I have an old arsenal refinished K98 btw. So I did good! Good to hear. ( I think I bought it about 10-15 years ago?)

That's disappointing that the Mitchell's are misleading in their advertising.

You know, I have to oil up that old K98. It's been a while!

[surg_res]

Mitchell's mausers aren't fakes, but restorations. It is a no brainer that they chemically scrub their stocks and polish the steel. If you want a gun that is matching, inspected, and probably a clean shooter, they might not be a bad choice. Afterall, you are just paying $399 for a K98--how much can you really complain about that?

[Darren007]

Easy....why buy one that has had its stock belt sanded, metal reblued, serial numbers scrubbed and restamped and a hideously polished bolt that has no place on a K98 for $399-$699, which is what Mitchells charges for their various "grades". BTW their rifles are not matching. They simply grind off the various serial numbers on the mismatched parts and restamp them to match the receiver. In the Mauser world thats fraudulent since Mauser was well known for stamping every single piece on their rifles with the serial#, collectors place heavy value on rifles that are matching and ORIGINAL. Will Mitchells tell you that...HECK NO!!!! Yet they advertise their rifles as all matching.

For around $200-$400 you could buy an unmolested russian capture that will shoot just as well, you can clean yourself, and retain its value. Even if you have no historical or collecting interest in Mauser K98s, the Mitchells are an overpriced raw deal.

[garryc]

The thing about the Mitchell is that it's the same crap shoot as any other Mauser, it just costs a bunch more. I have my reservations about the matching numbers. Those bolts have been polished and the stampings look awful fresh to have been done 60 some odd years ago and gone through a polish. The edges are just too crisp. The russians had lots of german machinery and spare parts. They re-bolted alot of guns and didn't mark the bolts. I still call them a fluffed uo fake piece of junk. Coollector value is less than what you would pay for one new.

[Tikirocker]

Surg-res,

Read all of the above? Yes ... they are fakes ... the serials are faked and they are totally misrepresented. Essentially what they are selling is proof marks not original rifles.

[exercion]

For pure accuracy: The M41b Swede sniper. Next best is a standard M96 Swede
Reasons:
- the round is difficult to make inaccurate, it works well with a variety of bullet weights.
-recoil is mild to say the least
-barrel life is fantastic
-quality of the rifles themselves is beyond compare
-lots and lots of high quality match-grade bullets available
-very nice 2 stage trigger

Only downside from a shooters POV is the sight system, which is better than the M98's, but still not great (If you want to have tons of fun, shoot a Swede with a good aperture sight system )

[garryc]

Only downside from a shooters POV is the sight system, which is better than the M98's, but still not great

I'll have to disagree with that one. Back when I was young and could see those sights I found them very good. A very fine sight picture, just like on a kentucky long rifle.

[Darren007]

I agree exercion...Swedish Mausers are awesome, very collectable,Beautifully
made, and deadly accurate. You cant go wrong.

Swiss K31s are another favorite of mine for all the above reasons as well.

[RDak]

I have one of each, (Swiss and Swedish rifles). They really are nice rifles IMHO.

Surg - The other members seem pretty emphatic about Mitchell Arms. I'm sorry I mentioned them. I assumed they were good because of the guy at the range years ago who liked his alot.

What they say doesn't sound very good for Mitchell IMHO. I'd stay away from them unless I had no other choice.

Btw, I disassembled and cleaned my K98 yesterday. What a nice old rifle!

I was like a little kid playing soldier.

The only thing wrong with mine is the laminated stock has a little crack in the trigger slot area. It looks like it was glued by the arsenal prior to storage.

[wnycollector]

+1 for the post about surplus rifle fever! I added 2 whole gun cabinets (one for rifles, one for ammo) worth before the fever broke! I picked up my 1st M/N (M38) and then I NEEDED a 91/30...then m44...then hex 91/30...you get the picture!

The two most accurate rifles I own are an ex-sniper 91/30 and a S code 1937 K98. With wolf gold ammo both are accurate then my poor shooting ability!

[ursavus.elemensis]

Give some thought to the Arisaka's. They have the strongest action of any WW2 rifle, and a nice, clean Type 99 can be had for about $150. Cabelas sells Hornady 7.7 x 58 JAP ammo. A lot of guys used the Arisaka's for deer hunting. So, while I can't personally attest to their MOA group size at 100 yards, I can say that they can hit accurately enough for a clean kill while hunting. I have one that my grandfather brought back from the War in the Pacific. It is in great shape, and I shoot it once or twice a year. With my vision, I can't make much use of Mauser-style ladder rifle sights. I've thought about taking the rear sight off, and trying to get a gunsmith or someone who is good with metal to make some type of bracket or mount that can screw down into the same two screw holes so that I do not need to drill anything into my grandfather's rifle. Then, I could mount a scout scope to the bracket. It's one of those things that I can not do myself, and it is on my list of things to ask the gunsmith about.

[10 Spot Terminator]

For the era you stated there really is a top performer that is still fairly obtainabe at very decent prices and as history will show dominated international match competitions for years and that was the Swede model 96 6.5x55 . It was offered in several variations for match as well as sniper use but the standard Carl Gustaf 96 will shoot better than most of us are capable of . I own a good one bought just over a year ago that shoots so well I have started to have it turned into a model 42b sniper rifle clone . I paid $175.00 for it and will have somewhere in the neighborhood of $375.00 invested with the bolt work, scope mount and era "kinda sorta" correct scope and the rasied leather cheek pad . Can hardly wait for it to be done as shoots 1 1/4 in. groups at 100 with my tired old eyes and scoping it should be a real treat .

[surg_res]

Before all of you go nuts with accusation, I'd like to see some proof or hear first hand evidence. I can admit that I've never purchased one of Mitchell's mausers, but I've handled several and didn't see any problem with them aside from the fact that they have been vigorously restored. What I do have a problem with is the spread of baseless rumors and accusations. If any of you have first-hand experience with their firearms and strong evidence against them then speak out, but otherwise please refrain from accusing a comnpany of "fraud." Lastly, if any of you have access to K98's with matching parts and with excellent metal for $200, let me know cause I haven't seen K98s like that for the prices you claim--Russian captures or not!

[fisherman66]

The Swede and the Swiss are the only ones that have piqued my curiosity.

[deathshead]

on the 6th day god created the mosin 91/30 and it was good and on the 7th he dislocated his sholder and re set it by shooting hes creation.

[Tikirocker]

Res,

You go ahead and believe what you like ... why don't you take a trip to www.gunboards.com and go to the Mauser K98 forum do a search on Mitchells Mausers.

[surg_res]

I reviewed gunboards and didn't see much to support your argument: just the same old chat that we have here. I looked over MM's website and adds from American Rifleman going back a couple of years--again they advertise K98s from WWII or post-war with german markings, that have been disassembled and cleaned. They don't even make mention of "matching numbers." The M48s are advertised as exactly that. Ultimately, I'd like someone to explain what is fake about them. As a mauser collector, I have no use for scrubbed, restored, and mismatched guns, though, I'm not going to call the company criminal. If you want to worry about fakes, go check the markings on your own collections or go see the what's being sold off GB as "vet bring-backs."

[Darren007]

Oh I how love when someone defends Mitchells.......

All quotes taken from their ads and website....

1. Lets start with their Yugo M48. Or Im sorry as they "advertise" 98K-M48.
But wait...Im confused...Which is it guys a 98K or an M48??? It can NOT be both. Yet Mitchells calls it a 98K-M48. Sorry, if you dont think thats misleading....An M48 is not in any way, shape, or form or has anything whatsoever to do with a K98. A K98 was manufactured between 1935 and 1945. A Yugo M48 is a Mauser 98 action designed and built in Yugoslavia in 1948. Big difference!!! A knowledgeable collector knows this. Somebody with little to no knowledge of Mausers, probably, does not. Who do you think Mitchells is going after....

2. "Built on former German tooling, blah blah blah..." NOPE, BZZZZ, WRONG!!!!
The "tooling" had been there since before the war and had been purchased from Fabrique Nationale in Belgium. Again a knowledgeable collector knows this...

3..... " the Model 48 is recognized as a superior example of the K98 type military rifle"....
HUH??? K98 TYPE??? The German K98 is designation or name of a certain rifle. The Yugoslavian M48 is the designation or name of a certain rifle. A K98 is a K98. An M48 is an M48. They are NOT interchangeable. "Superior Example"??? Ok let me ask you....Would you rather have a walnut stocked Mauser K98 made at the Mauser factory in Germany. Or a Beechwood stocked M48 made in Yugoslavia??? Yeah thats what I thought....


4. "The Model 48 was produced by free people, instead of forced labor".....
Well, I guess that depends on your definition of free. Do you think people living under a Communist dictator were "free"??? Hmmmm, let's leave that one to the historians shall we....





Lets go now to their Mauser K98Ks shall we....

1. Looking at their fine ad...we read..."Factory overhauled, preserved in military storage since 1945. Bright bore, clean original stock, excellent blueing, MATCHING NUMBERS ON ALL SIX MAJOR PARTS..."

Ok...we know these are Russian Captures (again, something Mitchells does not mention) so being "preserved in military storage"??? Ok, i can buy that.
Factory Overhauled??? Do you consider disassembling a rifle, covering the stock in shellac and stamping an "X" on the receiver and reassembleing the rifle irregardless of serial#, as being factory overhauled??? Coz thats exactly what the Russians did. But looking at that beautifal rifle in their ad you would'nt know that and Mitchells is'nt going to tell you that. Coz their "factory Overhauled" statement is just their way of saying..."WE sanded the stocks, reblued the metal, ground off and restamped serial#, and polished the bolt". In the collecting world, every one of those things is a HUGE NO NO.


Clean original stock??? Yeah, theyre original, made during WW2...just not original to that rifle. The serial stamped in the side of the stock will tell you that and is a dead giveaway that these are Russian Captures. The Germans NEVER marked their stocks in that way or location.

Excellent Blueing??? The russians applied a matte black finish to the metal parts. Mitchells reblues them so of course theyre going to have excellent blueing. (and besides when your grinding off serials you kind of have to reblue or it wont look to good). Any collector will tell you, reblueing or for that matter sanding a stock will LOWER the value of a rifle. Will Mitchells tell you that they reblued the metal??? Of course not. They were factory overhauled in 1945!!!

Matching Numbers on all six major parts??? A Russian Capture with matching numbers on six major parts??? Only six??? What about the other serials, sure you know, the ones the Germans stamped on the screws, cleaning rod, bayo lug, etc.??? I guess "don't ask, don't tell" would apply here, huh Mitchells?? Sorry guys, grinding off non matching serials on various parts and then restamping some of them to match the receiver is WRONG!!! Especially since any collector knows that Mauser marked matching serials on every single part, making it a BIG determination in the rifles value. To advertise that these rifles are Matching when in fact they are not is FRAUDULENT!!!! And again destroys what little, if any value (collector or monetary) the rifle had left, after the stock sanding and metal reblueing.


Go to their website and you'll see that they have ultra rare SS rifles and super duper ultra rare SS deathshead concentration camp rifles. Sure they do.....Call them up....ask for one... and theyll happily stamp a standard a K98 worth about $250-$300, with the appropiate markings and sell it to you for $7,000 to $10,000!!!

Oh and that beautifal "minty" condition rifle they show in their ad???...You wont get that one unless you pay $699 for the "premium grade".


Surg-Res...Let me ask you, you stated that you have no use for "scrubbed, restored, or mismatched guns" right. If anything, didnt the nice shiny polished bolt cause ANY alarms to go off in your head that there is someting wrong here??? No, K98 ever made, EVER... had a polished bolt left in the white,... NEVER, EVER,EVER!!!

Im telling you as a Mauser collector for the better part of 20+ years, Mitchells is bogus. Their claims are bogus and their rifles are WAY overpriced. They do and sell all those things you said you dont want. Everybody who has done time in the Mauser collecting world knows all about the joke that is Mitchells Mausers, from the time they started until today. If they are not trying to decieve you, why not just say in their ads..."restored russian captures...Various grades...call Mitchells".... Coz they know knowledgeable collectors wont bite. They are marketing these rifles to people who dont know any better. And will sadly get burned.

Hey its your money, do what you want.