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Old February 18, 2008, 03:13 AM   #1
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Range report: 360 PD self-defense loads...

Hi
Actually got to go shooting yesterday. I concentrated on two things:
FA 83 22lr and finding a load I could fire with some sort of accuracy out of my 360PD with my Hogue Monogrip on it:


I'll post pics of the targets in a bit.

The goal was to fire enough .357, and 38 through the gun to pick a load for carry. Also, to get familiar with the gun.
Prior to the mongrip, the gun was unshootable with .357, cutting my finger on the first shot.
Now, it just beats me up. It requires a death grip to shoot, and, with the heavy trigger pull, double action, is not a candidate for target gun of the month. Shooting was done at 15 yards.

My right hand is very sore from the pounding it took, and,
like a real brain, I forgot my shooting gloves.

I shot a minimum of ten rounds of each load.

Saturday, February 16, 2008
Range notes on .357 ammo extended grip

Federal Personal defense 357 158 grain hp 1240 fps
Heavy recoil, last shot came out of time
Not enough rounds to really test
Two cylinders
Recoils hard, have numb trigger finger, but, not cut

Hornady158 grain JHP XTP 1250 fps

Grouped really high takes death grip to shoot near accurately



American Eagle 130 grain FMJ
950 fps
really mild, but a bit low

Haven’t shot a decent group yet.

Federal Premium Low recoil .357 130 grain HPs 1300 fps?
Low recoil compared to what?
Hurt my hand.


Fioochi 357 Magnum 148 grain 1300 fps

Either my hand is really getting used to getting hammered, or, I like this one. Hits but it’s not sharp. Don't think it's that fast out of a snub...

Fusion 357 mag 158 grain hps at 1240 fps
Very heavy recoiling. Hurt hand.

Heavy 38 special Plus P 158 item 20A Buffalobore 1040 fps
Still pretty heavy recoil. Second favorite, behind Fioochi.

Seems the fiocchi recoils a bit less then the buffalobore 38, or at least sort of slower.

I decided that was enough, and, I have 5 more, heavier 357 loads I was going to try, but, didn't, since my hand hurt. I started off shooting about 10 rounds of .475, thinking that would get me ready for the 360PD, 357. Didn't work that way.

At 15 yards, I shot patterns, not groups. Also, after death gripping the 360PD, I doubled my target grade trigger Kimber, and, the range guy didn't like that much. Same problem with the .475 Linebaugh, with 400 grain XTP's, and a pretty good group, but flew the last shot. About 2".



The Freedom Arms 83 22lr, grouped around an inch, or less, with CCI Blazer 40 grain ammunition. The trigger is the standard 5 pound FA trigger, and, it's really sort of weird having a 22lr that has a much heavier trigger pull then a FA 83 .475 Linebaugh.

Anyway, it was great to get out and shoot.
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Old February 18, 2008, 03:39 AM   #2
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Distance shot.
Warm up with FA 83 22 lr:

22lr groups

Most of these shots are 45 ACP. Some are the .357.
At the top right you can see my three shot string with the .475 Linebaugh, and, the flyers...
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Old February 19, 2008, 08:48 PM   #3
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Two Comments

Glad I got a M&P 340 I guess a couple of extra ounces with the SS cylinder makes a heck of a difference apparently. Have you tried any Speer Gold Dot .357 135 gr for short barrel? Give them a shot, you might like them.
I think the benefit of what you have is lightweight carry, but I think my favorite load would be standard pressure 20C BB in the Sc/Ti machines.



I guess the HM didn't fit your hand so you "customized" them.
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Old February 19, 2008, 09:38 PM   #4
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DAdams:
Thanks for the response. I had a bunch more stuff to try, but, I figure for now, either the Corbon 125's at 1204 fps, chronographed, or, the Fioochi 147 .357 mag loads will do the
trick. Oddly enough they seem to recoil about the same as the 158 grain Plus P buffalobore, which is a very effective snubby round, penetrating around 14" opening up well, and moving about 1040 fps out of an actual snub. I think the Fioochi is probably going the same, or slightly slower.

I will look into the short barrel stuff. Must be a reason I haven't tried it. This gun is a nice, light, pocket carry gun.
For IWB, or thunderwear, I'm looking at a 3" Model 60, Glock 30, or CCO style 1911, converted to .475 JRH short.

I 'tapered' the HM grip so it doesn't stick out as much, and print, when carried in thunderwear, or whatever the new name is for the stuff, smartcarry, I think.

I like the extra velocity I get from the 158 Item No. 20A/20 158 gr. L.S.W.C.H.P.--G.C. (1,000fps/M.E. 351 ft.lbs.)
S&W mod. 60, 2 inch—1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)

I'll use that, or the 147 grain Fioochi. Both hammer me pretty good, far harder then the standard 38.

I also picked up these:
Item No. 19C/20 158 gr. JHC (1475 fps ME 763 ft. lbs.)
Item No. 19D/20 125 gr. JHC (1700 fps ME 802 ft lbs.)

But, decided my hand was hamburger, and, wanted to shoot something civilized, like 400 grain bullets at 1350 fps...
1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1476 fps

I'd be real intrested if out of the snub barrel, if the above loads drop 100 feet, how much difference in recoil is really there.
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Old February 20, 2008, 12:14 PM   #5
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Last edited by Socrates; February 23, 2008 at 01:52 AM. Reason: solved
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Old February 20, 2008, 01:43 PM   #6
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..

Last edited by Socrates; February 23, 2008 at 01:52 AM.
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Old February 20, 2008, 08:15 PM   #7
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see above
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Old February 21, 2008, 02:04 PM   #8
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bamf!
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Old February 22, 2008, 10:34 PM   #9
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Thank you for the excellent review of that hand eating .357 snub.

Makes me wonder if the .357 lightweights are worth the hassle.

I am leaning towards 125 grn .38 +p's or the Cor Bon +p loads as my personal defense round for this reason.

I don't see the point of having a pistol that hurts to shoot that much.

Getting a heavier(and cheaper) stainless steel pistol may make the .357 a much more livable pistol to use.

I favor the 649 shrouded hammer Smith.

It felt great in my hand.

But I now own a model 85 DAO Taurus in bright nickel.

I had to put the standard springs back in it. The factory put a spring job in it for $65 and it was not firing three out of five cylinders.

But I fixed that and I've had other Taurus pistols that worked great too.

Have you checked into getting the barrel ported?

It might help the recoil but I would guess at night it would be like holding a m80 in yourhand as fa as flash goes.

Anyway,Socrates thanks for the indepth report.
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Old February 23, 2008, 01:59 AM   #10
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BNREAL

The sole purpose is really for pocket carry, and, if you have small hands, even better. Much of my problem is caused by large hands, needing longer grips.

Also, for that much abuse, I'd really like a 3" barrel, at least for CCW holster carry, not pocket carry.

It's pretty much the perfect pocket revolver, other then the 340, which has the shrouded hammer.

However, the Glock line of sub compacts, in particular the Glock 39, which is as small as the 26/27, but shoots 45 GAP=45ACP, with 200 and under grain bullets, is maybe smaller, recoils much less, and is nearly as concealable, if slightly heavier, 12 oz vs 20. Plus, the Glocks give you a 3.48" barrel, a huge advantage over the 1.8" on the 360PD, or most snubs.
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Old February 23, 2008, 10:19 PM   #11
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In retrospect:
My hand is still not fully functional from the shooting session 7 days ago. Opening jars, grabbing things, has not returned to full function. I think it's death grip, combined with the recoil speed that makes this gun such a nightmare to shoot.

My hand hasn't had this kind of damage from 50 rounds of 525 grain bullets at 1350 combined, with assorted 475 rounds.

I've been rethinking the entire light weight snubby thing. When you start looking at the ballistics you get, and, the amount of blast, and noise, 45 ACP, 45 GAP, out of mini glocks, or 1911 CCO sized guns, they start looking much better.

These 357 scandiums are perhaps best suited to barely Plus P 38 loads. Even the Buffalobore.com 158's at 1040 are a real handful.

I may try the short barrel loads from them, and from Speer.

I'm planning on switching grips, to the Hogue Boot grips, and revisiting this issue, with 38 Plus P loads, and regular loads. I guess I've bought the worlds most expensive 38...
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Old February 25, 2008, 07:44 PM   #12
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Thought I should add a recoil table, so you all don't think I'm a wimp:
Just occured to me it would be an effective tool to compare the guns I'm considering, and the ones I've compared it to, ballistically.
Quote:
Federal Personal defense 357 158 grain hp 1240 fps
Recoil Energy of 24 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 46 fps.
Minus 100 fps
Recoil Energy of 20 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 42 fps.
American Eagle 130 grain FMJ
950 fps
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 30 fps.
Federal Premium Low recoil .357 130 grain HPs 1300 fps
Recoil Energy of 19 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 41 fps.
Fioochi 357 Magnum 148 grain 1300 fps
Recoil Energy of 24 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 45 fps.
Heavy 38 special Plus P 158 item 20A Buffalobore 1040 fps
Recoil Energy of 17 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 38 fps.
Other possible loads:
BB Tactical Short Barrel, Low Flash, Reduced Recoil 357 Magnum
125gr. Speer Unicore (Gold Dot) bullet @ 1,109 fps (341 ft. lbs.)
Recoil Energy of 13 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 34 fps.


Out of a model 60
125 grain HP Corbon 1204:
Recoil Energy of 8 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.
125 grain Buffalobore at 1425 fps
Recoil Energy of 11 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 22 fps.
Federal Personal defense 357 158 grain hp 1240 fps
Recoil Energy of 12 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 23 fps.

Glock 26
125 grain at 1250 fps
Recoil Energy of 7 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 19 fps.
Glock 30
230 grains at 1015 fps DT load
Recoil Energy of 12 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 22 fps.

HMMM.
Kimber CDP( CCO sized gun) with 475 JRH short conversion, 300 grain bullet@ 900 fps:
Recoil Energy of 13 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 21 fps.

For perspective:
Colt Commander:
230 grain DT 1015 45 plus P
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.



Glock G39
200 gr GDHP 950 ft/s
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 23 fps.
185 gr GDHP 1020 ft/s
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 23 fps.


My full size Kimber Custom II with 230 grain at 1100 fps 45 Super:
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 16 fps.

400 Grain Hornady XTP at 1350 fps, out of FA 83:
Recoil Energy of 36 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 27 fps.

Ruger Maximum in 500 Linebaugh Maximum:
525 at 1350 fps:
Recoil Energy of 53 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 31 fps.
Max load: 525 at 1550 fps
Recoil Energy of 71 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 36 fps.
I found it intresting that the Fioochi felt mild compared to some of the loads above it, and, that the 158 plus P was near identical in recoil to the Fioochi, in subjective feeling.

Just occured to me it would be an effective tool to compare the guns I'm considering, and the ones I've compared it to, ballistically.

Last edited by Socrates; February 25, 2008 at 08:18 PM.
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Old February 25, 2008, 09:07 PM   #13
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I find the Speer 135 grain .38 +P's, supposedly designed for short barrels, about the most I'd want to regularly shoot out of my airweight bodyguard that weighs 15oz. HOly Momma (!) I can't imagine shooting full house .357's out of a 12 oz scandium J frame! Although, I have to say that in a self defense situation one might not even feel the recoil, but I can't imagine regularly practicing with much more than regular .38's out of a 15 oz J frame let alone a 12 oz frame. Honestly, my hand feels a bit slapped around after just 50 rounds of regular weak .38's out of my bodyguard .
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Old February 25, 2008, 09:14 PM   #14
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Your experience mirrors mine. I ended up with the Speer 135 gr 38+p, and for that, my lowly $300 M-37 was more than adequate.

Quote:
I guess I've bought the worlds most expensive 38...
Don't feel too bad, I bought three of them--one 360 and two 340s. And ended up selling them all.

On the plus side, I still own the Kimber Super Ultra Carry. It is one of my very favorite pistols of all time, and is in my pocket as I type this.

One other suggestion: Kahr P45/PM45. I have the former and it is one sweet and concealable 18.5 oz 6+1 45 acp.
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Old February 25, 2008, 10:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Don't feel too bad, I bought three of them--one 360 and two 340s. And ended up selling them all.

On the plus side, I still own the Kimber Super Ultra Carry. It is one of my very favorite pistols of all time, and is in my pocket as I type this.

One other suggestion: Kahr P45/PM45. I have the former and it is one sweet and concealable 18.5 oz 6+1 45 acp.
Around here, I've been getting really high prices on everything. Used guns for new gun prices...

Kahrs are too expensive around here. Plus, Kahr just doesn't do it for me. If I'm going to get a super small 45, it will be the Glock 30 or 39.

The model 60, as you see above, if I can conceal it, is another consideration.

The UC II, and Detonics Mark VI are a couple items that I regret selling. That's life sometimes.

Getting rid of the 360PD is certainly a consideration. I could never shoot the Model 63 for anything, selling that.
The frame size, and my large hands, and the dimensions make it hard for me to shoot j frames well.
However, much like the Kimber UCII, I've got a lot of custom work in it, and, with boot grips sanded down, it might make a at least adequate pocket carry gun/take out the garbage gun.

I'd still like to be able to hit something at 15 yards with the gun...
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Old February 25, 2008, 11:33 PM   #16
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Socrates, perhaps you should simply consider a larger-framed revolver. I am personally quite partial to K-Frames. I don't find my 2 1/2" barrel M66 to be overly hard to conceal (although it certainly isn't a pocket gun). A 3" M65 or 13 probably wouldn't be any harder to conceal although M66's and 19's seem to be more plentiful. If you really want a Scandium revolver, a 2 1/2" barrel M386 may be a consideration. This revolver is only marginally heavier than an all-steel M60, but has enough added weight to help tame the recoil of the full bore .357 Magnum. Finally, I don't know how you feel about Rugers, but the SP101 might be a good option as it's 25oz weight would certainly help and a used 2 3/4" barrel Speed or Security Six would be comparable to a K-Frame.
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Old February 26, 2008, 12:05 AM   #17
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The Ruger is an excellent suggestion, since it's about the same weight as the 60. I was thinking it would be nice to use the same speedloader in both, but, S&@ pricing is just absurd around here. I'll see if I can find one used, if for no other reason then I need something to shoot off my 357 extra ammo with...
27 oz. have to see if it fits.

The Glock 39 is looking better along with the 30. Twice as many rounds, about the same weight and size, actually better trigger then DA with a S&W. Fits my hands better then the Jframe...

Holding out for a CCO...
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Old February 26, 2008, 06:34 PM   #18
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Thanks

Socrates, once again thank you for the extensive info. I have only shot that particular model one cylinder full, my bones felt bruised in my thumb area. I really liked how light it was. I shot magtech 158 gr sjwc out of the air-light and my good freinds model 60 2" and compared the two side by side. The light weight version wasn't too unbearible in my opinion.
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Old February 27, 2008, 03:24 AM   #19
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454:
One of the loads I haven't shot is a big box of Magtech, and, a
bunch of different buffalobore.com heavy 357's. I was kind of scared of em, but, after doing the above tables, it's not that much more then the stuff I've shot already, so, while it may not like my right hand, I should be able to shoot it...
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Old March 9, 2008, 02:30 PM   #20
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Actual Chrono Results Would Be Facinating-

Also and the reason I ended up on your thread from a Google search is-

WHAT the hey is a .475 JRH Short? In a 1911?

Thanks Socrates!
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Old March 10, 2008, 06:53 PM   #21
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Hi
Local ranges don't really go for putting stuff in front of you, so I haven't bought a chrono, though on a week day they might go for it. My actual chrono results were from testing at my gunsmiths.

The .475JRH short is one of the many, not so well publicized rounds Jack thinks up. He likes heavy bullets at low velocity, and, he's always trying to figure how to pack more punch into a smaller package. Things like a .357 Ruger opened up for 480 Ruger.

A .500JRH light, an even smaller cartridge designed to take heavy bullets, and fit in even shorter cylinders, and smaller frames.

The .475JRH short is Jacks new pistol cartridge idea. Keep in mind that Jack was the one that redesigned the .475 Linebaugh, by turning the rim down, so it would fit in a FA revolver, and, now, that's the industry standards.

The .475JRH short is based on a rifle case, cut down, and, is an auto pistol cartridge that we hope will fit in standard 1911 sized pistols, with just a mag and barrel swap. We'll see, since #1 is still being built.

I've decided I want #2 # 3, and, I have my own ideas about what the best bullet choice is. I've bought a ton of 325 grain Flat point .475 bullets, and, less but 265 grain Hawk Auto .475 bullets. I think once I do the recoil math, I might be able to get the 265 to do about 1100 or 1200 fps, yet still have recoil right around the 45 Super range.
Advantage of a big case, again.

Jacks goal was a 300 grain bullet at 800 fps.


I'll get some pics, and post the bullets soon.
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Old March 14, 2008, 06:30 PM   #22
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When the gun causes your hand to hurt and to not function properly after seven days,that's nerve damage.

My heart goes out to you because I had a motorcycle accident where I went over the handlebars like one of those spinning monkeys and got the tops of both hands trapped by the mirror supports before I was able to release my grip on the bars.

The result is hand pain that I still get twenty years later depending on weather,temperature and how hard I work at my job.

When you're having trouble releasing tops from bottles and you never did before,it's time for better grips,porting or a different pistol.

You saved me from buying one of these.

I can buy a heavier(stainless/blue steel) revolver and be comfortable with the knowledge that the extra weight not only saves me money but makes the snub easier to shoot.

Thank you for your complete report on this revolver.
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Old March 17, 2008, 08:21 PM   #23
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Yes, but can you hit anything?

Find any 50 rd box of U.S. made factory ammo in 38 spl--go to range--bring ipsc target with you---when you can put 40 thru any part of the A zone--at 5 yards--unlimited time---repeat twice consecutively--then we talk particular ammo.

If advice deemed unsuitable then remember, writer owns stock in all repitable ammo manufactures world wide so please keep shooting
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Old March 17, 2008, 11:57 PM   #24
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If you read review, you will notice .38 special already shot through the gun. Accuracy testing was done at 15 yards, and, the 38 was shot in the middle of a range session that was focused on recoil, and actually being able to hit what I was aiming at. .38 is NOT what I want to shoot out of the gun, but, it maybe what I end up with.

The brutal fact is the gun is really limited to 125 grain HP's, since the company warns about using anything lighter then 110 grains for fear of top strap cutting, or forcing cone damage. All heavier bullets, except the 147 grain .357 from Fioochi seem, to generate felt recoil that is beyond my ability to shoot as I would any other gun.

That said, with 125's the recoil numbers look like they might approach a shootable situation, though the trigger is truly horrible, both very heavy, very long gritty, and, it doesn't seem to get any better.

Quote:
BB Tactical Short Barrel, Low Flash, Reduced Recoil 357 Magnum
125gr. Speer Unicore (Gold Dot) bullet @ 1,109 fps (341 ft. lbs.)
Recoil Energy of 13 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 34 fps.
American Eagle 130 grain FMJ
950 fps Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 30 fps.
really mild, but a bit low
The last load is really realistically about as much as I can shoot as I shouuld from this gun, though 13 ft. lbs shouldn't be beyond my ability, I believe the super lightweight, and recoil velocity is the real key here. The gun just moves so fast, that it really puts a hurt on your hand and joints.

My hope is to find a way to combine low velocity, with more recoil energy, to get a bigger bullet, moving fast enough to be outside the service calibers, but, not super loud, nor super fast recoil. The real give away is this, my favorite gun to shoot:
400 Grain Hornady XTP at 1350 fps, out of FA 83:
Recoil Energy of 36 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 27 fps. The speed of recoil isn't much, thanks to gun weight, but, the actual Recoil energy is substantial, yet it's fairly fun to shoot.

You can also go off the deep end, and, gnerate so much recoil energy, that despite moderate speed, it feels like you got hit with a metal bat:

Ruger Maximum in 500 Linebaugh Maximum:
525 at 1350 fps:
Recoil Energy of 53 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 31 fps.

Thanks to this gun, I've changed my way of determining guns and loads to taking the actual gun, weighing it, and then plugging in recoil figures and figuring out what kind of recoil I'm going to get for the loads I want to shoot.

Keep also in mind that when you follow Mas Ayoob's advice for SD and use ammo loaded by a commercial maker, you often find recoil much higher then indicated, thanks to super cheap, high recoiling powders in factory ammo.

Also, I've decided that since a civilian gun fight, if it ever happend, would average very few rounds fired, the first round is the most important. The 360 PD, with it's truly horrendous, even after a trigger job, DA pull on the first shot makes it rate far down on the list for carry guns, and, the only reason to really carry it is to use 38's with 125 grain bullets, and CCW boot grips, so you have a well concealed, pocket gun.
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Old March 18, 2008, 12:21 AM   #25
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One other note:

I'm real close to 5000 dry fires on snap caps. I oil the gun, but, it's still super stiff DA, and,it's not getting much better, being gritty, and hard to pull. I've also been doing this a LOT, to develop my trigger finger for this sort of pull, and, it actually hurts I've done it so much.

My plan with this gun is an action job, and, it has to get the trigger pull down at least to half the pressure now required.
Second, put on the Hogue Boot Grips, and have them sanded down thinner, and set the gun up for 38 special, or very light, low recoil 357, with 125 grain bullets, though the wisdom of firing a 357 with no hearing protection really makes me wonder what I was thinking when I bought this thing.
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