Family Heirloom

[hamster]

Up till yesterday, I didn't even know my Dad had packed away his father's WWII carbine. But now I do, and we've started our first family heirloom. Story:

My house is being fumigated, and while packing up all valuables I uncovered my grandfather's gun he used back in WWII. He is long passed, but from what my dad told me and what he told me when I was still waist tall he shot mortars. He was in the Army's 442nd the all Japanese-American Regiment. I'm assuming he only had a carbine because he was probably carrying around that mortar tube thinge. Anyways, it's wrapped in some plastic thing so I can't really read all the writing, but from what I can, it is a 30 caliber?? (Will look at it more closely when I get the chance). It has a parkerized finish, and looks to be in great condition (~95%). Once the house is done being fumigated, I'm going to purchase a safe to lock this thing up. (My dad had it stowed away in the closet.. and forgot that he even had it.)

I just think that it's really cool that in my family we now have a piece of history to pass on from generation to generation.

[Norrick]

yeah that is cool. Was it easy back then to pretty much take home whatever you wanted?

My uncle told me stories of how his friends wouldl air mail almost entire jeeps back home, one piece at a time over the course of his tour in vietnam. Could just be a tall tale, I'll never know.

[Jimro]

The 442nd "Go For Broke!" was a fine unit, their story of fighting north up the Italian "boot" a saga worthy of remembering along side the 502nd, and Merrill's Marauders.

That unit has two memorials that I know about, a statue at Ft. Benning that lists the awards of the unit, and a larger memorial in southern California.

Be proud of your Grandfathers service.

Jimro

[Creature]

That these old rifle are still being found in closets is amazing to me. Hang on to that Carbine!

[hamster]

A question I forgot to ask. Is there any paper work that needs to be done to transfer the gun from either my grandfathers name or dads name to mine?

It's from WWII so does that put it in a different category and is exempt from all that paper work stuff?

[Jimro]

There is no Federal requirement, but California firearms laws leave me confused, so check those out.

Jimro

[gordo b.]

You can deros (Ca. registration) it to yourself by logging on to CADOJ and downloading the family transfer form and sending the fee in with the information. The gun is worth at least $1000 if it is an unmolested carbine in 95% , Of course to you it is PRICELESS! If there were any magazines with it hold on to them , they are 'grandfathered' under CA law as you can only get new 10 rounders
You might make sure it is NOT an M2 with a selector switch - a lot of those came back too

[MacGille]

Don't tell the State of Cal anything. The carbine is part of your inheritance and there is no law requiring transfer or registration in Ca. The less you tell the state, the better off you are. There are a lot of stupid gun laws here, but there is NO registration required for firearms in CA. Assault rifles maybe, and federal machine gun registration.

The carbine is the U.S. Carbine caliber .30 M1, or M2 (full automatic). It uses a proprietary cartridge not used in any other gun. It was supposed to replace the pistol for officers,and other soldiers who were not issued the M1 rifle. Mortar men, truck drivers, clerks, etc. Congratulations on your find, the weapon used by your grandfather is priceless. Never sell or otherwise dispose of it. It should be handed down to your son (or daughter) and kept in the family as an heirloom. IMHOP

[globemaster3]

Hamster, that is awsome! I'd advise your kids to never let that rifle leave the family. Just think about the wow factor you had, now multiply it 5 times over for your great grandchildren!

[44 AMP]

Write down everything it says on it (and where). Then do some research. Make sure the gun is not an M2 carbine. The M2 is the full auto version of the M1, and looks identical at a glance. If it is an M2 then you must surrender it to the Feds at once, otherwise you are looking at 10 years in jail, plus ruinous fines, court costs, and the loss of your right to own firearms. There is no legal way for you to keep it.

Large numbers of M1 carbines were brought home by returning troops, mostly because it was small enough to be fit in a duffel bag. Technically these guns were "stolen" from the US govt, but the govt has never made an issue of it. The guns were just considered "lost in combat". If you took a truckload, that was different, but individual soldiers bring home a rifle or two, or a pistol, in those days, if the sargent didn't catch you with it before you got out, then they just looked the other way.

Odds are very high that your Grandfather's carbine is an M1, and not an M2. M2 carbines were only made in small numbers compared to the M1 carbine. The identifying points of the M2 carbine are as follows; there is a selector lever that sticks up on the left side of the receiver, near the front of the action. Also, the magazine catch projects from the front of the trigger group housing. If your Grandfather's carbine says M1 on the receiver, and it doesn't have a selector lever, you are good to go. It is an M1 carbine. If it says M2 (even if it doesn't have the selector lever), you need to talk to a lawyer, one that knows gun law, in detail (which most lawyers don't).

WW II M1 carbines have features that differ from later carbines. The type of rear sight, and bayonet lug (or lack of one) are just two differences. WWII carbines that stayed in govt service after the war got "upgraded" later, and original condition WWII carbines are highly sought after by collectors. If your grandfather's carbine was actually brought home at the end of WWII, it would have a higher market value than other carbines. I know you intend for it to be a family heirloom, I just mention this for information.

The M1 carbine were produced in larger numbers than any other US weapon.
There were 9 different manufacturers that made carbines, and those made by the smaller makers (which included Rock-ola and IBM) can be worth a considerable amount.

Congratulations on recovering a valuable piece of US and family history. When you are able, gather up all the things you have with the gun (magazines, sling, ammo pouches, any and everything you have) and keep them safe. Your Grandfather's uniforms, medals, papers, pictures, letters, any thing like this that still exists should be preserved, if you can. He served in a highly decorated unit, with a distinguished combat record, and his service and sacrifice for our nation deserves to be remembered and honored.

We are reaching the point in time where the majority of WW II vets are passing, and much valuable history is being lost because their children and grandchildren do not understand or value those things they have left behind. You are fortunate, to have something that is a concrete link to our "greatest generation", and your family's personal part in it.

If I can help with any further information, just ask.

[LanceOregon]

I'm pretty confident that California law bans any transfer of assault weapons between people. There is no provision in the law for "grandfathering" such weapons and allowing people to pass them on to the next generation. This was the really insidious part of California's ban on the sale of new assault weapons. Eventually, their original owners will all die, and the guns will have to either be destroyed or leave the state.

If it is currently legal to buy a M1 Carbine in the state of California, then the transfer could be legally done. But I am unsure if that is the case. In any event, that is definitely what you need to determine with absolute certainty at this point.

I know that no magazines over 10 rounds can be legally sold or transfered between people within the state of California. There is no grandfathering provision at all for them under California law. This is all documented in California Penal Code Section 12020 (a). So any magazines for the gun clearly now have an illegal status. This is only a misdemeanor, with no more than a one year maximum jail term.

So at the very least, I think you will need to get rid of any 15 or 30 round magazines that might be with the gun. I just did some checking, and I don't see the M1 Carbine listed as an Assault Rifle on the California Bureau of Firearms website. So it may well be considered an OK gun, much like the Ruger Mini 14 is treated in the state.

But you should do some checking on your own, and not solely rely on folks here in this forum. You could always call the Bureau direct and ask, or check in with some California gun owner organizations.

The gun laws in California are so crazy and totally inconsistent. The mere fact that that the state has this huge bureaucratic Bureau of Firearms is insane. I would never live in any state that has an entire state agency devoted to just gun control.

Good luck to you in dealing with this.

.

[chris in va]

Repeat after me. "It's an M1". Seriously.

[BillCA]

I'm pretty confident that California law bans any transfer of assault weapons between people. There is no provision in the law for "grandfathering" such weapons and allowing people to pass them on to the next generation. This was the really insidious part of California's ban on the sale of new assault weapons. Eventually, their original owners will all die, and the guns will have to either be destroyed or leave the state.

Irrelevant to the discussion of an M1 Carbine, which is not listed as an "assault rifle" in CA's statutes.

If it is currently legal to buy a M1 Carbine in the state of California, then the transfer could be legally done. But I am unsure if that is the case. In any event, that is definitely what you need to determine with absolute certainty at this point.

M1 carbines from Auto-Ordinance are saleable in California (or they were, I haven't seen any recently but I think that's due more to reliability issues). The relevant list of guns banned by name can be found in PC 12276 and the descriptive version in 12276.1. Both can be found here.

I know that no magazines over 10 rounds can be legally sold or transfered between people within the state of California. There is no grandfathering provision at all for them under California law. This is all documented in California Penal Code Section 12020 (a). So any magazines for the gun clearly now have an illegal status. This is only a misdemeanor, with no more than a one year maximum jail term.

First, that's not quite true. Magazines for the M1 carbine which you owned as of 1 January 2000 are legal to own. If the government wants to make an issue of it, they have to prove that you obtained the magazines after that date or brought them into California after that date. The state is unlikely to expend the resources to prove that simply because it cannot readily be done.

The M1 Carbine, since it was manufactured more than 50 years ago is a C&R rifle and exempt from some FFL requirements.

So at the very least, I think you will need to get rid of any 15 or 30 round magazines that might be with the gun.

No. Not if any member of his family can attest that he received the items prior to 1 January 2000 and he was within the state of California at that time.

But you should do some checking on your own, and not solely rely on folks here in this forum. You could always call the Bureau direct and ask, or check in with some California gun owner organizations.

Also login to http://www.Calguns.net for more information. There are folks there who keep on top of all the details.

The gun laws in California are so crazy and totally inconsistent. The mere fact that that the state has this huge bureaucratic Bureau of Firearms is insane. I would never live in any state that has an entire state agency devoted to just gun control.

Agree to in principle. Stupid laws, unhelpful bureaucracy, confused law enforcement officers and even some FFLs.

I live here only because I must for the time being. I don't know that California can ever recover from it's slide into socialism. If it ever does, it'll become a much better state to live in.

[LanceOregon]

No. Not if any member of his family can attest that he received the items prior to 1 January 2000 and he was within the state of California at that time.

Well, since he just discovered the rifle, I got the impression that he recently got it. But you are right. If he has owned it that long, then the magazines are legal to keep.

He just will not be able to ever legally give them to anyone else.

.

[hamster]

No mags... at least that I know of. My dad just pulled the gun out of the closet, and said "Look what I found."

Also... I remembered seeing a make on the gun, but it didn't come to me till I read 44AMP's post. It wasn't a major gun manufacture which is why it didn't stick till I saw his post. I think it is Rock-ola, I will defiantly get all the information I can from it when my house is all cleared out.

[globemaster3]

Chris, not sure of your motivation here, but if its just to deflate this finding, go somewhere else!

If I could put hands on a weapon my grandfather or father carried in war, I'd be jazzed beyond belief. And the fact that this man's grandfather was a member of a highly decorated unit in a time where we were sending Japanese Americans to camps inside the US to prevent espoinage is an outstanding showing of American pride and self-sacrifice on his grandfather's part! My understanding of military history is that these Japanese American units per capita scored more battle honors and individual awards than their counterparts.

Maybe that means little to you, but it means a lot to a guy like me w/14 years in and currently serving who understands sacrifice and service before self as well as other who have BTDT.

Hamster, keep the info coming! I am getting goosebumps for you about this connection to your heritage!

[hamster]

I think he's just telling me to say its a M1 no matter what.... so I can keep it.

As for my grandfathers other army stuff, it was all packed away when he died. I was only 10 or so at the time, so my dad was in charge of all that stuff. I wasn't into history and didn't understand just how much a part of history my grandfather was just by being part of the 442nd. So I didn't pay much attention to what was stored where. This fumigation caused us to pack up the valuables and we stumbled upon his old gun. Now I'm wondering what else is packed away. Maybe I can find his old uniform and purple heart.

[Wleoff]

Go to the carbine forum on CMP:
http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=32
Lot's of info.

[Wuchak]

Congratulations on discovering a great family heirloom.

I'd suggest documenting everything you can find out about the gun and your Grand-Father, name, unit, etc. on high quality acid free archival paper and putting in an envelope with the gun. If there is a removable butt plate I would also write at least your Grand-Father's name and info on another sheet, laminate it, and place it under the plate.

Things have a way of getting split up over time and family stories lost even when people try to keep them alive. Taking a few minutes to document it now will ensure that your Grand-Father's connection to the rifle is never lost.

[mellow_c]

This is an article from an American Rifleman issue April 2008 about the Rock-Ola M1 Carbine. I cant bear to type the whole thing out, so here are all the important parts, enjoy

The M1 carbine was primarily inteded to be a replacement for the .45 pistol in the hands of officers and other military personnel whose primary duties often precluded the carrying of the standard service rifle. Designed by the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. and adopted after an exhaustive series of trials and tests, the carbine was a lightweight (about 5 1/2 lbs.) semi-automatic shoulder arm that fired a .30-cal. cartridge ballistically comparable to a .357 Mag. Handgun cartridge. While significantly less powerful than the M1 Garand rifle, which fired the .30-'06 Spring. cartridge, the carbine was more effective than the .45 pistol at all but point-blank range. Almost immediately upon its adoption, the carbine proved to be popular with the majority of users and much greater numbers were manufactured and issued than originally anticipated.
The Rock-Ola Scale Co. was founded in 1927 by David C Rockola. As the years passed, the small Chicago firm grew and began producing other products. In 1932 the name was changed to Rock-Ola Manufacturing Corp. Mr. Rockola indicated that he added they hyphen as people were prone to mispronounce the name. By the 1930s, Rock-Ola was manufacturing a wide array of products including scales, parking meters, pinball machines, and furniture. However, in the eyes of the public, the firm became most closely associated with coin-operated jukeboxes. Large numbers of Rock-Ola juke boxes were in use from the mid-1930s in the the 1950s and well beyond.
When the United States entered World War II, virtually all manufacturing entities were contacted regarding potential military production contracts. Rock-Ola was no exception, and the company was approached in very early 1942 regarding the possibility of becoming involved in the M1 carbine production program.
Despite many problems, delays and setbacks, Rock-Ola was eventually able to get into production. The firm's initial batch of barrels was finished in December 1942, and the first completed carbines were delivered in February 1943. Even before the company delivered its first carbine, it was awareded supplemental contracts for an additional 152,746 carbines with a daily production goal of 1,500.
Rock-Ola manufactured the following parts for its own M1 carbines: receiver, barrel, stock, handguard, gas cylinder, bolt, triger, sear, recoil plate, firing pin, trigger housing, extractor, and operating slide.
Rock-Ola barrels were also stamped with the name of the company and, initially, the date of manufacture, but the date was eliminated latter in production.
While Rock-Ola never came close to meeting its directed goal of 1,500 carbines per day, the company did deliver a total of 228,500 along with a sizable number of extra barrel assemblies by the time the firm's contracts were canceled and production ceased on May 31, 1944. Rock-Ola's output represented about 3.7 percent of the total carbine production, the lowest percentage of all prime contractors, except for the ill-fated Irwin-Pedersen which made fewer than 4,000 complete carbines, none of which were initially accepted by the government.
As was the case with virtually all M1 carbines, the vast majority of Rock-Ola carbines were subsequently rebuilt by the government following World War II. When a carbine was rebuilt, most of the parts were stripped from it and any worn, broken or superseded components were replaced with updated parts. Parts were replaced with no regard as to the original maker, thus rebuilt carbines were assembled with mixed parts. updated components typically installed on rebuilt carbines included an adjustable rear sight, rotary safety and barrel band with integral bayonet lug. The carbines were re-Pakerized as necessary.
Undoubtedly, many of the young G.I.s who were issued Rock-Ola carbines were slightly amused at seeing the name of a jukebox maker on their guns. While not rare, Rock-Ola carbines can sometimes be difficult to turn up and, for today's collectors, these carbines are among the most desirable and valuable due to the low production numbers and the uniqueness of the maker. The "jukebox carbine" is certain to remain one of the most sought-after examples of the U.S. M1 carbine. While the sounds that emanated from a Rock-Ola jukebox in a roadside diner were certainly different from those of a Rock-Ola carbine in a foxhole in France, the latter was still welcome "music" to many G.I.s in its own right.

[hamster]

Thanks for that article. That is neat. It's amazing how the country pulled together to fight the war. The whole country pretty much became a war factory.

Now I really want to find out if it is indeed a Rock-ola.

[ndking1126]

pictures??

I know they all look the same, but somehow they are all different and unique. Especially one's with a cool history!

Congrats!! Take care of it!

[TimRB]

"I think it is Rock-ola"

OMG!!! How come these things NEVER happen to me???

Tim

[YukonKid]

Good artical, you might want to cite it properly though

Thats a truly awesome find, I hope something like that happens to me sometime.

YK

[hamster]

Pictures will come as soon as I'm back in the house. Was talking to my dad a bit more about the gun, and he says that my grandfather fixed it up a bit. So my initial assessment of 95% is probably incorrect. My dad remembers his dad doing some woodwork on the gun. I don't know how that will affect the value... not that I care, since I don't ever plan on selling it.