December 10, 2008, 12:33 PM | #1 |
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terminal performance
I ran across this recently and found it informative.
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sig...ds/officer.pdf ****WARNING**** THE WEBSITE TO THE ABOVE LINK CONTAINS GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOGRAPHS AND IS NOT SUITABLE FOR EVERYONE Last edited by Apone; December 11, 2008 at 11:23 AM. Reason: I placed a warning about the link in my post. |
December 10, 2008, 12:43 PM | #2 |
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I'm confused
.40S&W fired from 20 feet failed to penetrate more than 1" and the lesson learned at the end is that the .40 ammo didn't fail? What am I missing here? "Range between subject and officers: 20 feet. • Subject had a t-shirt on under his jacket." "Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them)." "The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this incident." I'm not necessarily bashing the .40 here but if this isn't failure, what is?
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December 10, 2008, 01:38 PM | #3 |
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I think what you quoted was from the "incorrect" coroners report. In the Facts and Lessons Learned sections, it talks about how .40 rounds cannot fully expand at 1" like noted by the coroner, and that even all the M4 TAP rounds didnt incapacitate the subject. Overall they said the .40 rounds performed as expected, and the non-incapacitation was caused by poor shot placement.
Thats what I got from it...
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December 10, 2008, 02:02 PM | #4 |
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Well, if the .40's hit something first THEN hit the BG I could see them not penetrating more than an inch...
I didn't see any solid COM hits, so yes, I'd say shot placement is key.
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December 10, 2008, 02:19 PM | #5 |
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Interesting note:
Officers fired AT LEAST 107 rounds with 17 hits: 16% hit rate. There seems to be a lot of information missing. A total of 133 rounds fired from a distance of 20 feet and it lasted 3.5 minutes? Unless there was 3 minutes between the initial officer being hit and the others showing up, I don't see how that's possible.
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December 10, 2008, 03:04 PM | #6 | |
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December 10, 2008, 04:31 PM | #7 | |
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December 10, 2008, 04:34 PM | #8 | |
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December 10, 2008, 10:04 PM | #9 |
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This makes no sense.
"All of the rounds expanded fully"
"Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them)" Huh? I think that there is a literacy problem of some kind. Either the examiner isn't able to put on paper a coherent report or whoever wrote this powerpoint isn't able to accurately interpret what he is reading. Having read many official reports like this, often times, people attempt to write in a manner that imparts both their ability and the seriousness of the subject. Most often, they look silly. When reading this report, remember, one government bureaucrat wrote it, another transcribed it, and yet another tried to incorporate it into a presentation. It is highly unlikely that meaning or accuracy survived.
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December 10, 2008, 10:24 PM | #10 |
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Another inconsistency
From Page 6:
"Subject received approximately sixteen .223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds went completely through." So, hit by sixteen .223 rounds. On Page 9, the arm x-ray, I see a broken arm, I don't see a .40 round, so that is one .40 that penetrated more than one inch, and exited. I don't think this guy's arm is only one inch thick, so, where's the bullet? Then, after the pictures (Page 18): "Assailant was shot seventeen times with eleven rounds exiting the body." So far, sixteen .223 rounds, seventeen total, so that means one .40. There's a little problem of consistency, as earlier they said thirteen rounds of .223 exited, but now only eleven, probably a typo. Next page: "Six .40 S&W rounds, five of which expanded, were recovered on autopsy." So, hit by at least six .40s, that's at least 19 gunshot wounds, nine of which did not exit. Conclusion: The examiner, the report writer, and anyone who gives this report the slightest semblance of credulity or credibility is a nincompoop.
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December 11, 2008, 12:24 AM | #11 | |
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December 11, 2008, 09:39 AM | #12 |
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If you read through the entire report, you'll note that at the end, the FBI determined that the initial medical examiner's report of 1 inch of penetration and fully expanded rounds is impossible, and thus incorrect.
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December 11, 2008, 10:43 AM | #13 |
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You may want to warn people about the link- it may be a little graphic for some of the younger ones lurking here.
I have to wonder if the bullets were recovered 1" from inside the body- that they penetrated then stopped at the back of the body. And I also have to wonder if the suspect was behind cover/concealment. This was a gunfight lasting 3.5 minutes with the suspect stopping to reload the magazine with rounds out of a box. He about had to be behind something. The tattoo is fitting isn't it? "Live by the gun. Die by the gun." He asked for it. His choice. |
December 11, 2008, 11:16 AM | #14 | |
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December 11, 2008, 01:54 PM | #15 |
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KLRANGL caught that, too, the part of the report that the rounds could not have penetrated just one inch and not expanded. I saw it, but there had to be some reason for the rumors. I'm thinking more than one expert did an examination or that some of the rounds did not penetrate very far.
For example, the one in the neck wasn't expanded and was still there. It could be that it hit something that slowed it down. |
December 11, 2008, 02:23 PM | #16 | |
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I noticed it right along side the dozen or so other unexplained discrepancies. Was the medical examiner an idiot? There is too much missing detail. There also appears to be missing pieces of the slide show because the section containing the "blog" is cut-off and not continued. I, for one, don't put much faith in any part if this report, the initial findings or the "facts" at the end.
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December 11, 2008, 08:16 PM | #17 | ||
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Last edited by Apone; December 11, 2008 at 08:22 PM. |
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December 11, 2008, 08:41 PM | #18 |
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Apone, you're correct
I understand what you are saying, and you are correct. The point of this powerpoint is to correct inaccurate blogs, written based on the inaccurate report of the examiner. Unfortunately, in trying to correct this, he creates an even more confusing document.
In trying to correct the inaccurate information, the author doesn't take the time to present an accurate narrative of the event. In failing to do that, he adds to the confusion that he is attempting to correct. Instead of just saying that the coroner was incorrect, he should explain what actually happened. To not give that narrative, he defeats his whole purpose. So did the bullets penetrate or not? Did they expand or not? The .223s failed, but how? How many times was the perp hit? Were the .40s successful? How was the shot placement and how did it affect the outcome. If you are going to attempt to correct inaccurate information, you are obligated to present accurate information. Knowing how government works, I could easily conclude that this guy is just trying to cover the butts of those who have a vested interest in the .40 being a success. Look at my sig, I'm a .40 fan, but remember the primary function of bureaucrats is to not be blamed and keep cashing their paychecks.
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December 11, 2008, 09:50 PM | #19 |
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Remember, just because it wasnt in the powerpoint doesnt mean it wasnt in the presentation. a good presentation has a few main facts on the slides, and lots of info in the speech...
assuming of course this was a presentation...
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December 11, 2008, 10:26 PM | #20 |
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I think this says it all. The .40 and 9 mm simply dont work. We need to go back to the .45.
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December 11, 2008, 11:42 PM | #21 | |
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