|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
May 12, 2009, 12:21 AM | #1 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Defining Dangerous and Unusual, Part II
With advance permission from Antipitas, I would like to re-open this thread with a caveat: The comments must be specifically related to criteria under which weapons should be deemed dangerous, and unusual.
There were some excellent responses in the first thread, and some off topic commentary that led to thread lock. Frankly, I share some of the blame with an insightful comment about making potato chips with a tater gun. It would be particularly interesting for any lurking legal eagles to jump on board here. Is the the simple argument I make here compelling, logical, and arguable in court? For convenient reference, here is the opening salvo: Quote:
Last edited by maestro pistolero; May 12, 2009 at 01:50 AM. |
|
May 12, 2009, 01:04 AM | #2 |
Member
Join Date: June 1, 2008
Location: foot of MT Rainier
Posts: 89
|
I wonder if part of the equation should be whether the weapon is indiscriminate. A handgun or rifle is aimed at a particular target. A bomb destroys everything in a given area. A machine gun sort of straddles the line.
So a "dangerous" weapon would be one that does not discriminate what it destroys. |
May 12, 2009, 06:01 AM | #3 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
|
Isn't that an assumption that they didn't mean deadly and homemade?
As in zip gun, chainsaw, or the cattle rig Chagur used in No Country For Old Men? Oddball stuff or with no production that still fits the criteria of small arms but is not exactly definable as a firearm? Just askin...
__________________
Quote:
|
|
May 12, 2009, 06:07 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Location: South East Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,513
|
I hope this is like what you mean?
The old baseball bat is a pretty good weapon? Nails or screws protruding from the 'hitting' end would be very lethal
Along with nearly every Kitchen utensil and tool found in your shed.... all would be concidered weapons and could be made/used lethal(ly)
__________________
Muzza If you cant blind them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS Be alert...... there is a shortage of LERTs |
May 12, 2009, 06:12 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 9, 2002
Posts: 1,936
|
So a "dangerous" weapon would be one that does not discriminate what it destroys.
That's probably as reasonable a definition as we will see. |
May 12, 2009, 06:26 AM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Location: South East Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,513
|
Well
The most dangerous ammo modification I can think of, I saw on youtube some guys drilled projectiles and soldered in the points of concrete nails and made the projectiles like armour peircing?
__________________
Muzza If you cant blind them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS Be alert...... there is a shortage of LERTs |
May 12, 2009, 06:28 AM | #7 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
|
Quote:
No big matter, and very sorry for the thread jack, but it helps my pea-noggin to follow the reasoning of the thread later...when i understand the premise, sooner. Which is something i was missing from the other thread....don't these, already have a distinct category which is not typically referred to as "dangerous and unusual?" Quote:
__________________
Quote:
Last edited by alloy; May 12, 2009 at 07:24 AM. |
|||
May 12, 2009, 08:12 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 9, 2002
Posts: 1,936
|
I think that tank at Tiananmen Square was a dangerous and unusual thing to point at a civilian. That civilian looked to me like he needed something that was effective against tanks to set things right again.
|
May 12, 2009, 08:19 AM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2009
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 811
|
""So a "dangerous" weapon would be one that does not discriminate what it destroys.""
I like this definition as well. If you can point it at 1 target then it's not 'dangerous and unusual. This would apply to full auto as well I guess.
__________________
sailing ... A way to spend lots of money and go real S L O W |
May 12, 2009, 08:26 AM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 1999
Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse
Posts: 4,190
|
Quote:
If you are trying to exclude area effect weapons, that definition doesn't work because it applies to everything except humans themselves. How about "a weapon which cannot be used in its normal manner without posing undue risk of collateral damage?" |
|
May 12, 2009, 09:23 AM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 9, 2002
Posts: 1,936
|
We're all focused on the word "dangerous" but I think the word "unusual" might come to cause more trouble.
|
May 12, 2009, 09:42 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
Since I've spent a good deal of time studying the psychological impact of weapons, here's my take.
1. I'll draw the bright line at fully auto and weapons that fire explosive rounds for argument's sake. 2. The argument revolves around priming aggression. We know that more extreme the appearance of the weapon, the more it primes negative ideation. 3. The argument also revolves around differential risk. Most self-defense situations can be handled with stuff up to and including the AR-15, Aks, etc. (Although we know there is opposition to those). 4. The risk of foreign invasion by organized armed forces is nil. Most folks don't perceive a high risk of massive organized criminal or terrorist attacks that couldn't handled with semiauto long arms by the citizen - even in North Hollywood, the issue wasn't FA but rifle rounds for the vests. Thus, arguing for FA and explosive arms for invasion or massive battles by civilians doesn't impress. 5. People fear that if such weapons get easily into private hands (yes, you can get them now but it is hard and we haven't seen it much as compared to the normal criminal guns). They will attractive to rampage killers like Cho, Columbine, etc. The carnage there would be more likely than the prevention of invasion. 6. Would the guns get to nutso hands - sure, they would. A recent study shows that while murders may be dropping - the proportion of 22 and 38 shootings is on the decline and the 9mm/380/45 shootings are on the upswing - as killers follow the covers of Guns and Ammo and other journals. Thus, my view is that the perceived view of the enhanced danger of FA and military guns due to their appearance and attraction to nuts would next to impossible to overcome in the general public. I think one might be able to get controlled new FA with a similar system to some - but not likely.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
May 12, 2009, 10:19 AM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Glenn,
Good points. I would throw into the mix the operational design of the firearm. That is where I see the issue with FA. They are designed for the purely military uses of fire supression and area denial. Fire Suppression, as I have seen discussed in other TFL threads is really a bad idea for civilian SD since we are financially and criminally liable for each round fired and the military in combat generally is not (except if they violate any Law of Warfare provisions). Area denial is also not feasible in the civilian SD role as even with large civil disturbances, liability and responsibility for each round fired is still in play and the arms available to we civilians now are adequate for the purpose and will not unduely endanger innocent bystanders as much or to the degree FA will. Same with mortars and grenades. Their purpose is pure military and the issue for us is civilian SD. Civilian SD and the legal liability issues I think pretty much preclude the unrestricted use/possession of FA. FA I think belongs in the curio/hobby world and not in the world of civilian SD. As to terrorists and the so called "foreign invaders" mentioned in Nordyke dicta, these threats will ultimately be dealt with by LEO/Military and I do not foresee "citizen militias who are really unorganized mobs with guns" meeting those threats effectively. Indeed they might add more confusion to the mix as the trained responders might not be able to tell the two antagonists apart and cause the wrong folks to get shot. In fact I would see these "militias" shooting each other as well as either the BGs or LEOs/Military responders. I consider these scenarios kind of nutty anyway and anyone who has spent time in the military knows the difficulty of conducting armed military operations and the foolishness of throwing untrained armed civilians into the mix of those types of combat operations.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; May 12, 2009 at 05:49 PM. |
May 12, 2009, 12:11 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Cane guns, zip guns, briefcase guns, i.e. guns that are designed to look like something else may be sufficiently unusual, and dangerous. If it isn't even recognizable as a gun, someone who as casually handled it wouldn't even know to treat it with proper gun safety protocol.
|
May 12, 2009, 12:30 PM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 1999
Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse
Posts: 4,190
|
Quote:
One problem with this whole argument is that we are working hard to come up with how to concede the ultimate argument, which is the right to bear arms. The "we'll give this up if you agree to not go after the rest" is an inherently losing argument. Basically, we are debating how to lose best. |
|
May 12, 2009, 12:38 PM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,631
|
Quote:
And in that case, the argument of the anti-gun crowd against these types of weapons (in particular, military-style rifles, "EBR's") boils down, not to "guns kill people," but to "guns make people think bad thoughts." Interesting. And this prompts two thoughts: first, as I've said elsewhere, that we need to figure out how to educate people: change their perceptions about actual risk versus perceived risk when it comes to the purely cosmetic features of an EBR; and second, is there a way to bring this point into the legal discussion? I doubt that "Guns that make people think bad thoughts" would qualify as a standard for regulation or prohibition, IF it were possible to make it clear that that's the underlying rationale...
__________________
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. |
|
May 12, 2009, 12:43 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Location: South East Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,513
|
Sorry, call me stoopid....
But I really cant get a grasp on this thread, what it is really all about? All of these weapons are not dangerouse unless somebody makes/uses/weilds them as dangerous? I mean, mum's Iron (for clothes) is dangerous? not so much when she is ironing your pants, only if you come home late for dinner or with ANOTHER gun then she has a red hot, steam injected, quite pointy weapon on the end of a cord, so even if you run, she can throw tis thing at you like bola's.....
I mean, you could pull up at a gas station with your window down, some loony pokes the gas outlet in your window, a cigarette lighter in his other hand and say's hand over your wallet? The danger is in the threat you will be sprayed and set alight. The danger is the PERSON doing the bad deed! My point is, everything from automobiles, aeroplanes, kitchen utensils, syringes, garden tools & equipment, golf clubs, baseball/cricket bats..... anything/everything can be dangerous.... in DANGEROUS hands. This is especially true for our beloved guns. People/things dont kill people, people kill people! thats a fact... unfortunately :barf:
__________________
Muzza If you cant blind them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS Be alert...... there is a shortage of LERTs |
May 12, 2009, 12:58 PM | #18 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
Quote:
These types of firearms are already prohibited, so that loss has already happened. The debate is on what gets protected from here forward. This thread is an attempt to brainstorm, if you will, what dangerous and unusual means. Or could be argued to mean in court. As a 2A proponent, I want that as broadly defined as possible. |
||
May 12, 2009, 01:02 PM | #19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
|
|
May 12, 2009, 05:50 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2007
Location: Lancaster Co, PA
Posts: 2,311
|
The problem with labelling full auto as "dangerous AND unusual" is that it didn't get much of a chance to get to be usual. It only existed in the common civilian market on an uninterrupted basis for a short time and was expensive then and at a really inconvenient time for things to be expensive. Semi autos were just barely coming into the market and full auto was just barely making its appearance in individual firearm design. The NFA tax continued to be prohibitively expensive, as intended, so from the 30's to the 60's full auto was effectively regulated out of existence--thus "unusual" can't be determined on a fair basis. Then with the GCA of '68 the pool shrank even further so there was less to choose from, further limiting choice. The Ar15 platform was considered too exotic by many and with the early Vietnam problems didn't have a good reputation; it wasn't anything near as popular as it is today around the time the '86 ban came around...which then capped off the number of select fire guns available to all of us and raised the price out of reach.
Applying the "unusual" test to full auto is circular reasoning.
__________________
Students for Concealed Carry on Campus http://www.concealedcampus.org "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws--that's insane!" - Penn Jillette |
May 12, 2009, 07:15 PM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
I was commenting on the psychological impact of some weapons type. Could there be objective standards to danger? We do that all the time with our endless debates about stopping power, now don't we?
I'll throw out that the danger bright line is the design of a weapon to impact more than one person easily and/or simultaneously. As far as the weapon is just tool argument. That is common among the choir. However, IMHO - based on the large literature on priming aggression ideation - it has no persuasive power in this debate. The guns we want to protect are designed for and perceived as weapons by the general public. In fact, making the tool argument will be so blatanly ridiculous to folks that it is counterproductive. We are not trying to protect single shot 22S bullseye rifles or pistols. It is also the case that folks see the weapon as bringing out the aggressive impulse. While a hammer or a gas can might do that - they do not naturally call forth their lethal usages. Guns do. The argument for having them is based on their lethal usage for self-defense, defense of country, etc. Not sports or neutral tools.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
May 12, 2009, 07:30 PM | #22 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
I was intrigued by the criteria suggested by poptime: Quote:
|
||
May 12, 2009, 08:00 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
Shotguns spread was designed for tweety birds. It was later used in combat as in WWI - and I grant you its lethality led the Germans to view it as dangerous. But given the long history of sporting use - the O/U guns probably could pass.
The high cap pumps have problems - antigunners in Switzerland have denounced them. So shotguns are a fuzzy concept. Limited cap shotguns probably skate. Street Sweepers don't. The FAs and explosive projectile weapons are clearly weapons first. We can probably maintain shotguns as not dangerous if they are not 'extreme'. Another thing about tools and sport - both the Australians and Brits tried to used these arguments to maintain gun ownership. The UK IDPA and IPSC types sometimes mocked our blood thirsty humanoid targets - why use these for 'sport'. Guess what - bye bye guns. We tread a tight rope - we want to maintain ownership of instrument of lethal force but don't want to unleash a negative reaction to that usage. That has to be based on reasonable utility as I said before.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
May 12, 2009, 08:09 PM | #24 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Also, I don't find poptime's analogy helpful either. ALL bullets are indiscriminate as they kill whereever they are pointed. RPGs are aimed as well as Stingers and handguns. I would go back to; "are they appropriate and reasonable for civilian SD?" For those weapons designed fully for the military, I would say no. Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
||
May 12, 2009, 08:48 PM | #25 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
The comment . . . Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|