Small rifle primers in 9mm pistol

kenfa03 · September 18, 2009, 04:05 PM

Will they work? Measurements are the same.

hodaka · September 18, 2009, 04:34 PM

Usually. They work fine in my Glock but not very reliable in my P7. Have worked fine in all revolvers I have tried.

zxcvbob · September 18, 2009, 04:35 PM

They work in my BHP, but it will launch a pencil all the way across the room from the force of the firing pin.

kenfa03 · September 18, 2009, 06:06 PM

S&W 5906. Just tried some primed cases and they all fired the primer.

shooter_from_show-me · September 18, 2009, 06:31 PM

May have to try this with the XD9!!! Have 6k small rifle primers but no reg small pistol primers. Just small mag pistol primers. But I would olny use this idea for range ammo.

Jim243 · September 18, 2009, 06:31 PM

Let's see, a small rifle like a 223 will use 25 grains of H335 or H4895 for a 55 grain bullet and the primers are desinged to set off all that powder! Now a 9 mm will use what 4.6 grains of W231 or 6.4 grains of Power Pistol with a 124 grain bullet in a case 1/5 the size of a 223. GEE I wonder what that Small Rifle primer will do with that amount of powder??? Duha.

I am getting tired of trying to keep you guys alive, just buy a large insurance policy and make me your benificiary, say a $500,000 or $1,000,000 would do.

Jim

hodaka · September 18, 2009, 06:52 PM

It doesn't work like that Jim. The primer just initiates the burn, not burn the whole amount of powder. Many of us have made this switch for years. Typically, you shouldn't use pistol primers in rifles though. Too much pressure.

angus6 · September 18, 2009, 07:25 PM

Quote:

I am getting tired of trying to keep you guys alive

Please post an instant where it caused a problem
It's been done for a lot of years

Jim243 · September 18, 2009, 08:50 PM

hodaka

Are you saying it does not change the burn rate of the powder?

A buddy of mine use to suggest using small pistol mag primers for 38 special because of the case length to insure all the powder burned, but I found it not to be necessary and a waste of small pistol mag primers.

Beside the fact that small rifle primers are made of heavier material to handle the higher pressures of rifle charges, you recommend anyone should bet their life on a need for their side arm and take a chance of a Failure to Fire because of a light strike on a rifle primer used in a pistol???

Let me know
Jim

Jim243 · September 18, 2009, 09:08 PM

angus6

I give up, ignore all the warnings, from the powder mfgs, primer mfgs, bullet mfgs and all the reloaders that think it is unwise. Do what you want, just don't do it around me or any other unspecting sap that your near. I have already had an idiot blowup his revolver next to me, blowing the cylinder in half and backstrap completely off. I spent 5 min trying to search to see if I had been hit by any of the parts of his gun.

Just don't shoot at the same time I do or in the same place.

Jim

Crosshair · September 18, 2009, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Beside the fact that small rifle primers are made of heavier material to handle the higher pressures of rifle charges, you recommend anyone should bet their life on a need for their side arm and take a chance of a Failure to Fire because of a light strike on a rifle primer used in a pistol???

Who said anything about using these reloads for self defense? You seem to be grasping at straws here.

Most guns have more than enough firing pin energy to light a small rifle primer. As far as pressure. If anything, a small rifle primer has LESS priming material due to the slightly thicker cup.

If you were loading handloads for PD then bust out a few small pistol primers and load them up.

SL1 · September 18, 2009, 09:17 PM

People have been making the switch in over-SAAMI pressure 9mm rounds for years, but usually in pistols specially modified for "9mm Major" ammo. So, it is probably OK with respect to not unseating the bullets too early.

But, to keep the 9mm rounds within SAAMI pressure for normal guns, you will probably need to back-off from the max load. How much isn't known. And, looking at the primer's degree of flattening isn't going to help, because the small rifle primers are designed for higher pressure and won't flatten as much.

You might be able to get a rough comparison of pressures by comparing the pressurre ring diameter of the fired cases between factory ammo and the handloads with the rifle primers. But, that isn't very accurate and can be misleading if you don't recognize all of the issues with the method.

SL1

Jim Watson · September 18, 2009, 09:20 PM

I guess I have gotten away with bad behavior according to recent internet posts here and elsewhere. I have fired some thousands of 9mm P loaded with small rifle primers and no misfires or blowups. Of course I do not load to the maximum in the first place.

I do not have a pressure test rig, but I do have a chronograph and have found that with the same bullet and powder charge, a small rifle standard primer gives higher velocity than a small pistol standard primer but LESS velocity than a small pistol magnum primer.

At one time Federal recommended their small rifle primer for use in .357 magnum because they did not then make a small pistol magnum primer. They do now, but that does not mean the rifle primers have changed.

Jeff H · September 18, 2009, 10:13 PM

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the original 357 Elmer Keith loads used small rifle primers.

IMtheNRA · September 18, 2009, 10:32 PM

Kenfa, I tested this just last week. I ran low on SP-M primers, and I loaded a test lot of .357 Mag rounds using CCI SR-Benchrest primers.

My 27 with a very "light trigger" failed to ignite about 20% of them. My stock 686 fired the rest, but about 10% needed a second strike. One primer took three whacks from the 686.

The resulting accuracy was a bit disappointing and the brass came out dirty, sooty, and with a few flakes of unburned powder (H-110). In my limited experience, I found that CCI SR-Bench primers are not a suitable substitute for CCI SP-Mag primers.

rc · September 19, 2009, 01:32 AM

competition shooters have been doing this for years. Just keep your loads to max or below and you should be ok. Don't try to hotrod your rounds. rc

hodaka · September 19, 2009, 05:05 AM

Jim, if it does change the burn rate of the powder it does so only slightly. I think an analogy might be that you can use the same match to burn a dixie cup or a bale of hay. The primer is just the match. Naturally, as with any component change one should back off a bit on the charge and work up.

**Mike Irwin** · September 19, 2009, 08:08 AM

Yes, you can do it, if your gun will set off the primers reliably.

If, however, your load is at max, I recommend dropping back and working your way back up.

Rifle primers can jump pressures the same way that magnum handgun primers can.

Brian Pfleuger · September 19, 2009, 10:13 AM

The best bet would maybe be Federal primers, being that they're so soft. At least, I assume the rifle primers are as soft as the pistol... relatively speaking. As to say, they're rifle primers are probably only as hard as other pistol primers.

bdhawk · September 20, 2009, 09:44 PM

just last weekend we shot some loads using small rifle primers in a J frame smithy. failed to ignite on two rounds out of 50. and the J frame has a pipsqueek action in it. this little mod 60 had a lightened trigger, to boot.

they have been hotroding .38 super for decades using small rifle primers in the mix.

on the other hand, you CANNOT substitute large rifle primers. they are taller and may cause slamfires in autos.

brando77 · September 20, 2009, 10:48 PM

my local GS only has SR & LR no small pistol so i use small rifle in the 9mm and some 38spl loads with a 10% reduction in powder and i've yet to have any issues. if you use them, do so wisely,start low and work up.

Hardcase · September 21, 2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

They work in my BHP, but it will launch a pencil all the way across the room from the force of the firing pin.

Some of the craziest things happen when a guy starts thinking, "I wonder what would happen if..."

Alleykat · September 23, 2009, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Let's see, a small rifle like a 223 will use 25 grains of H335 or H4895 for a 55 grain bullet and the primers are desinged to set off all that powder! Now a 9 mm will use what 4.6 grains of W231 or 6.4 grains of Power Pistol with a 124 grain bullet in a case 1/5 the size of a 223. GEE I wonder what that Small Rifle primer will do with that amount of powder??? Duha.

I am getting tired of trying to keep you guys alive, just buy a large insurance policy and make me your benificiary, say a $500,000 or $1,000,000 would do.

Jim

Don't worry about keeping us alive, Jim, just learn a little more about reloading and take a class in logical reasoning skills.

Many folks, including me, use small rifle primers for 9mm reloading.

September 18, 2009, 04:05 PM	#1
kenfa03 Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Posts: 71	Small rifle primers in 9mm pistol Will they work? Measurements are the same.

September 18, 2009, 04:35 PM	#3
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	They work in my BHP, but it will launch a pencil all the way across the room from the force of the firing pin. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

September 18, 2009, 06:31 PM	#5
shooter_from_show-me Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 231	May have to try this with the XD9!!! Have 6k small rifle primers but no reg small pistol primers. Just small mag pistol primers. But I would olny use this idea for range ammo. __________________ When the government fears the people, you have liberty. When the people fear the government, you have tyranny. ~ Thomas Jefferson NRA Life Member

September 19, 2009, 08:08 AM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	Yes, you can do it, if your gun will set off the primers reliably. If, however, your load is at max, I recommend dropping back and working your way back up. Rifle primers can jump pressures the same way that magnum handgun primers can. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 19, 2009, 10:13 AM	#19
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The best bet would maybe be Federal primers, being that they're so soft. At least, I assume the rifle primers are as soft as the pistol... relatively speaking. As to say, they're rifle primers are probably only as hard as other pistol primers. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

September 18, 2009, 04:34 PM	#2
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	Usually. They work fine in my Glock but not very reliable in my P7. Have worked fine in all revolvers I have tried.

September 18, 2009, 06:06 PM	#4
kenfa03 Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Posts: 71	S&W 5906. Just tried some primed cases and they all fired the primer.

September 18, 2009, 06:31 PM	#6
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Let's see, a small rifle like a 223 will use 25 grains of H335 or H4895 for a 55 grain bullet and the primers are desinged to set off all that powder! Now a 9 mm will use what 4.6 grains of W231 or 6.4 grains of Power Pistol with a 124 grain bullet in a case 1/5 the size of a 223. GEE I wonder what that Small Rifle primer will do with that amount of powder??? Duha. I am getting tired of trying to keep you guys alive, just buy a large insurance policy and make me your benificiary, say a $500,000 or $1,000,000 would do. Jim

September 18, 2009, 06:52 PM	#7
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	It doesn't work like that Jim. The primer just initiates the burn, not burn the whole amount of powder. Many of us have made this switch for years. Typically, you shouldn't use pistol primers in rifles though. Too much pressure.

September 18, 2009, 08:50 PM	#9
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	hodaka Are you saying it does not change the burn rate of the powder? A buddy of mine use to suggest using small pistol mag primers for 38 special because of the case length to insure all the powder burned, but I found it not to be necessary and a waste of small pistol mag primers. Beside the fact that small rifle primers are made of heavier material to handle the higher pressures of rifle charges, you recommend anyone should bet their life on a need for their side arm and take a chance of a Failure to Fire because of a light strike on a rifle primer used in a pistol??? Let me know Jim

September 18, 2009, 09:08 PM	#10
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	angus6 I give up, ignore all the warnings, from the powder mfgs, primer mfgs, bullet mfgs and all the reloaders that think it is unwise. Do what you want, just don't do it around me or any other unspecting sap that your near. I have already had an idiot blowup his revolver next to me, blowing the cylinder in half and backstrap completely off. I spent 5 min trying to search to see if I had been hit by any of the parts of his gun. Just don't shoot at the same time I do or in the same place. Jim

September 18, 2009, 09:17 PM	#12
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	People have been making the switch in over-SAAMI pressure 9mm rounds for years, but usually in pistols specially modified for "9mm Major" ammo. So, it is probably OK with respect to not unseating the bullets too early. But, to keep the 9mm rounds within SAAMI pressure for normal guns, you will probably need to back-off from the max load. How much isn't known. And, looking at the primer's degree of flattening isn't going to help, because the small rifle primers are designed for higher pressure and won't flatten as much. You might be able to get a rough comparison of pressures by comparing the pressurre ring diameter of the fired cases between factory ammo and the handloads with the rifle primers. But, that isn't very accurate and can be misleading if you don't recognize all of the issues with the method. SL1

September 18, 2009, 09:20 PM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I guess I have gotten away with bad behavior according to recent internet posts here and elsewhere. I have fired some thousands of 9mm P loaded with small rifle primers and no misfires or blowups. Of course I do not load to the maximum in the first place. I do not have a pressure test rig, but I do have a chronograph and have found that with the same bullet and powder charge, a small rifle standard primer gives higher velocity than a small pistol standard primer but LESS velocity than a small pistol magnum primer. At one time Federal recommended their small rifle primer for use in .357 magnum because they did not then make a small pistol magnum primer. They do now, but that does not mean the rifle primers have changed.

September 18, 2009, 10:13 PM	#14
Jeff H Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2009 Posts: 176	I seem to recall reading somewhere that the original 357 Elmer Keith loads used small rifle primers.

September 18, 2009, 10:32 PM	#15
IMtheNRA Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2001 Posts: 298	Kenfa, I tested this just last week. I ran low on SP-M primers, and I loaded a test lot of .357 Mag rounds using CCI SR-Benchrest primers. My 27 with a very "light trigger" failed to ignite about 20% of them. My stock 686 fired the rest, but about 10% needed a second strike. One primer took three whacks from the 686. The resulting accuracy was a bit disappointing and the brass came out dirty, sooty, and with a few flakes of unburned powder (H-110). In my limited experience, I found that CCI SR-Bench primers are not a suitable substitute for CCI SP-Mag primers.

September 19, 2009, 01:32 AM	#16
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,767	competition shooters have been doing this for years. Just keep your loads to max or below and you should be ok. Don't try to hotrod your rounds. rc

September 19, 2009, 05:05 AM	#17
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	Jim, if it does change the burn rate of the powder it does so only slightly. I think an analogy might be that you can use the same match to burn a dixie cup or a bale of hay. The primer is just the match. Naturally, as with any component change one should back off a bit on the charge and work up.

September 20, 2009, 09:44 PM	#20
bdhawk Junior member Join Date: December 22, 2000 Posts: 114	just last weekend we shot some loads using small rifle primers in a J frame smithy. failed to ignite on two rounds out of 50. and the J frame has a pipsqueek action in it. this little mod 60 had a lightened trigger, to boot. they have been hotroding .38 super for decades using small rifle primers in the mix. on the other hand, you CANNOT substitute large rifle primers. they are taller and may cause slamfires in autos.

September 20, 2009, 10:48 PM	#21
brando77 Member Join Date: April 26, 2009 Posts: 31	my local GS only has SR & LR no small pistol so i use small rifle in the 9mm and some 38spl loads with a 10% reduction in powder and i've yet to have any issues. if you use them, do so wisely,start low and work up.