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Old October 10, 2009, 07:02 PM   #1
gunney 67
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glock 45 acp blow-ups

A couple of years ago the Portland Police Bureau had two issue Glock 45's blow up on the range. As a result, they changed back to Beretta 9mm's as dept issue. I never heard if they ever determined what caused the guns to blow up. Anyone have any updates?
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Old October 10, 2009, 07:49 PM   #2
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Do you have information to support the claim that they switched to another firearm brand?

The last I heard they had switched to a different caliber but were still using Glocks.
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Old October 10, 2009, 11:17 PM   #3
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I am a portland oregon resident and my father a former portland police officer. The police switched from their G17's to the G21 and two officers were injured during training and they switched back to the G17. There are many articles out there with more information pertaining to this. http://www.accessnorthga.com/detail.php?n=174365
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Old October 11, 2009, 10:17 AM   #4
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Portland PD, in its infinite wisdom, refused to let Glock/Smyrna examine the G21s in question, even when Glock offered to fly Portland PD's so-called in-house "expert(s)" to Glock/Smyrna to witness the examination.

Bad ammo, plain and simple, confirmed by White Labs.

This is the same Portland PD that opted out of the Terrorism Taskforce.

I've fired tens of thousands of rounds of my reloads through G21s. If there were a systemic design problem, I'd have found it by now.
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Old October 11, 2009, 10:31 AM   #5
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Someone already said bad ammo, confirmed in tests, but that would have been my guess.

A local University's police had a similar episode with Berettas -- the ammo maker made it all good, since nobody was badly hurt. (Some "stung" hands.)
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Old October 11, 2009, 11:45 AM   #6
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I accept it could have been bad ammo......but but a key piece of information for me is did the Glocks fail when other brands might have survived?

There is bad ammo out there, but if the Glocks failed when others might not have failed, then that's a mark against Glock. Now if any brand would have failed with the same ammo then that's a different story.
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Old October 11, 2009, 11:49 AM   #7
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I suspect it's the glock unsupported barrel syndrome. That when coupled with bad ammo it's a nasty combination. Not speaking against glocks, I carry a Glock 36 myself. My only problem with Glocks- when they do go it often tends to be with a bang!
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Old October 11, 2009, 12:04 PM   #8
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I accept it could have been bad ammo......but but a key piece of information for me is did the Glocks fail when other brands might have survived?
That's an absurd comment, with no basis in empirical fact.
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Old October 11, 2009, 12:17 PM   #9
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That's an absurd comment, with no basis in empirical fact.
Actually your comment is absurd. I was asking a question. You don't know and I don't know about empirical facts because we no not have all the information. You are just making the normal emotional defense for Glock.

Having said that, I am interested in guns that are over-designed for higher than normal pressure rounds. And not all higher pressure is do to loading, it can also be caused by set-back. People rightfully raise this concern with Glocks because of a history of Kabooms. I know normally the defense is that the ammo was bad, but that's not good enough for me. I want a pistol that will take over pressure rounds without a Kaboom.

PS: I my next purchase is going to be a Glock 26. I believe the Glock 9mm Luger's are not borderline for high pressure rounds.
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Old October 11, 2009, 12:25 PM   #10
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I want my Glock 21 to be redesigned so i can shoot overpressured loads too,something in the 3000-3400fps range.And if it lets go then by god i'll sue.All in all i cant complain i've shot something like 10,000 rounds in my 21 and not a hiccup,but then again i'm not an armchair engineer just a dumb ex-MP
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Old October 11, 2009, 12:35 PM   #11
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All in all i cant complain i've shot something like 10,000 rounds in my 21 and not a hiccup,but then again i'm not an armchair engineer just a dumb ex-MP
Yes, G21 are good guns, and as long as the rounds are in SAAMI specs you are OK. I am not surprised that you got 10,000 rounds without a problem.

I did serve in the Army so I will not even comment on the MP quote.

I am a retired Mechanical engineer and I am sitting in an armchair.

Last edited by madmag; October 12, 2009 at 09:23 AM.
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Old October 11, 2009, 01:24 PM   #12
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Man I can't believe how many glock guys take it as a personal shot to their manhood when somebody simply states that they wonder if other brands would have held up better.
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Old October 11, 2009, 01:36 PM   #13
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Man I can't believe how many glock guys take it as a personal
It's always hard to get the emotion out of Glock discussions. Basically they are great guns and deserve lots of credit for pistol design innovation when others were sitting stagnate.

But..........I think I would rather be using my P90 when shooting bad ammo than a Glock. The discussion about Kabooms is often about bad ammo, but in my opinion, it should be about mechanical over-design to take the occasional high pressure round.
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Old October 11, 2009, 05:54 PM   #14
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The G21 is the exact same platform/parts as the G20 which is a 10mm. The 10mm delivers much more pressure and punishment to a gun than the very low-pressure .45acp.

The G21 is overbuilt if anything. It wasn't the gun's fault.
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Old October 11, 2009, 07:01 PM   #15
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I don't remember the details, but I read about this here:

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/greatest_hits.html

I am sure you can find it if you look around.

Here it is:

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html
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Old October 11, 2009, 07:44 PM   #16
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Good link.

At the bottom of that page are the reports by White Laboratory (paid for by the Portland Police lest there be concerns about impartiality) indicating that the analysis shows the incidents are consistent with overcharged cartridges.
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Old October 11, 2009, 07:47 PM   #17
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The only thing about Glocks that could contribute to kabooms it that they will chamber rounds that other pistols may choke on (out of spec). A round that won't feed won't kb. So you could say their reliability could be a contributing factor. That, and gazillions of them in service.

Glocks also utilize polygonal "rifling" which creates a more efficient gas seal, therefore slightly higher pressures and velocities. And in some of their earlier versions the did have less case head support than some other designs. This is no longer the case, and hasn't been so for a good while. I believe that Glock builds some of the sturdiest barrels in a production defensive handgun.
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Old October 11, 2009, 09:20 PM   #18
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Sounds like bad ammo. I'm not a Glock zealot but they are good handguns and I seriously doubt it was a defect in the gun. As far as the thoughts on how another gun would have handled the event my FNP choked down a bad 45 round and had it blow up in its mouth. Blew the mag out the bottom and broke off the decocker lever. Aside from that the gun was unaffected and shot perfectly. Bad ammo happens. I do not think I would feel comfortable firing any handgun that I knew would fail or come apart in the unlikely (but possible) event of a defective round.
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Old October 11, 2009, 10:21 PM   #19
gunney 67
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I had heard that they went to Berettas, but did not know that for a fact. You may be right about the G17s. I didn't mean to start a fight over this OP. I hope we can all remember the immortal words of Rodney King. By the way, I have a G19 that I think rather highly of. Anyway, thanks to all who responded.
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Old October 11, 2009, 11:21 PM   #20
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Oh snap (coffee burns mouth)... i keep Hornady +P 230 grains in my G21SF... I'm i okay, am I within SAMMI specs? I never shot that load, mostly reloads, in fact... only range reloads so far... are +P rated rounds good for G21's?
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Old October 12, 2009, 02:27 AM   #21
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Quote:
I want a pistol that will take over pressure rounds without a Kaboom.
Then try this...



There is a reason for maximum pressures for various calibers... I would venture to guess that around 95% of all Glcok KB's are due to improperly loaded ammunition or the use of lead bullets in factory barrels, the other 5% being problems that could be associated with any gun from any maker...

The simple explanation for the seemingly large number of KB's in Glocks is because there are a bagillion of them floating around = the more chances you have of finding lemons. Every gun maker has lemons floating around, S&W/SA/Kimber/Glock/Ruger/HK/EVERYBODY...

Noting an idea listed above, it is also very likely that the ability of Glocks to chamber out-of-spec rounds is one of the culprits...
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Old October 12, 2009, 06:25 AM   #22
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dang.
hope they were okay
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Old October 12, 2009, 06:40 AM   #23
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The G21 is the exact same platform/parts as the G20 which is a 10mm. The 10mm delivers much more pressure and punishment to a gun than the very low-pressure .45acp.
I don't know anything about Glocks, I don't own one and I have never shot one but this seems like a curious fact. I am a lot more familiar with .45 Colt as opposed to .45 ACP and it occurs to me that while S&W makes .44 Mag revolvers and .45 Colt revolvers that look identical, they do not give the .45 Colt revolvers the same heat treatment and strength as the .44 Mag revolvers.

I assume it just takes more time and costs more than it is worth when the max pressure for .45 Colt is 14,000 psi and the .44 Mag is 36,000 psi.

10mm has a max pressure of 37,000 psi. .45 ACP has a max pressure of 21,000 psi. 10mm is almost double the pressure of .45 ACP. So why would Glock invest the time and energy in making .45 ACP guns stand up to 10mm pressures. It just seems odd.
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Old October 12, 2009, 08:07 AM   #24
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So why would Glock invest the time and energy in making .45 ACP guns stand up to 10mm pressures. It just seems odd.
The G20 (10mm) came out first. They just kept things the same for their next gun, the one in question here: the G21. They saw that it would make an acceptable platform for the .45acp and wouldn't cost them tons of money for new molds, parts, etc.
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Old October 12, 2009, 08:52 AM   #25
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I love to watch the Glock zealots circle the wagons around their holy brand whenever anyone questions "Glock Perfection".

Glock Headlines and News A random sampling from around the web.

NYPD Advisory - Effective 20 February 2003 all Glock Model 26 pistols in the E serial range of the current "non-recall" have been banned from carry by NYPD MOS. They are instructed to cease carrying the weapon and contact the Firearms Training Section for instructions concerning replacement.- Lt. Sean McMahon
________________________________
Albuquerque, N.M. - The Bernalillo County Sheriff's Department has discovered a problem with its new Glock .40-caliber semi-automatic handguns.An inspection turned up two more broken guns says Deputy Robert Ray. Ray, the departments armorer, says that on some newer versions of the gun, two pieces of steel in the lower portion of the weapon were improperly machined. Those pieces may be prone to breaking under the stress of repeated firing.
_________________________________
Portland Police Chief Derrick Foxworth is ordering all officers to transition to the use of 9mm handguns after recent mechanical failures of the Glock .45 caliber handgun. During the week of March 1, 2004, two failures occurred during firearms training.The transition to the 9mm handguns will be handled in such a manner as to ensure that officers continue to provide the same level of service to the community. - PIO Cheryl Robinson
__________________________________
The Tribune-Star - Indiana State Police will receive new Glock 9 mm handguns as a result of functional problems with their current Glock 40-caliber handguns.About 50 guns that were identified as dysfunctional through a manufacturer defect will be replaced, said Indiana State Police Sgt. Joe Watts. The manufacturer is replacing the guns at no cost to State Police, Watts said. No timeline has been set for when the new handguns will arrive. When they arrive, police will be trained on their use. State troopers can carry one of the new, replaced handguns or the gun previously carried, a Beretta 40-caliber, he said.
_________________________________
SPRINGFIELD -- Illinois State Police troopers soon will be carrying new pistols after officials said a malfunction in one of the most popular police weapons could have killed an officer if left unchecked. Glock Inc., based in Smyrna, Ga., will replace all of the agency's 2,270 Glock Model 22 handguns at a significant discount, although it disputes a state police claim that it altered the model to compensate for a design flaw.
__________________________________

Local Indiana PD Department (100 Officers)

I know all about "Glock Perfection", however these problems are very real and are the weapon, not the shooter limp wristing as has been explained to us. I am not going to debate that this has been happening. This is an issues that I have had in my duty gun. This is an issue that several of my officers have had in theirs. Quite simply, this is an issue that Glock needs to resolve.

As has been well documentated here and on other professional forums, there have been significant problems persistent in the .40 Glocks. Ours have continued after switching ammo three times, switching mag springs, recoil springs, guide rods, shooting with different lights (including the horrible Glock light), etc...

Glock and our regional rep, M.W. (name withheld) have been of no help. We cannot get our rep to even return our calls and emails, let alone get him to come to the range to see the problem first hand.

This problem has gone on for over 3 years, which is long enough. We have given Glock every opportunity to resolve this, yet they refuse. As of today, we cut a check to outfit the approx 1/2 of our dept. that currently carries Glock with the Sig P229R.

While I realize that our dept. is fairly small at right at 100 officers, this is an extremely poor reflection on the Glock company and their LE rep. Our firearms Lt. emailed our rep to tell him that we were switching back to Sigs and still got no response.

To those who have experienced the same problems I have, thank you for your shared wisdom (R. Moran and tpd223, especially). To those still struggling with Glock over these issues, I wish you the best of luck.

To Glock, as a company I wish you continued sucess. However if your continued lack of LE support continues you will quickly find yourself on the outside looking in, just as S&W did several years ago.

Despite all of the drama and nonsupport we have recieved from Glock, I personally still believe that they make a wonderful gun - just not in .40 cal. I will continue to carry my 23 as my off duty gun until it starts to give me problems then away it goes to be replaced with a 19.

There has already been one documentated case that I am aware of where a .40 22 misfed a round while an officer was actively engaging a suspect. The officer was thankfully well versed in the tap rack drill and got his weapon functioning. I find this to be unsatisfactory for a duty gun.

If an officer is injured or unable to respond to an incident due to faulty equipment then both the PD and Glock are going to be liable and will be writing very large checks to the families of all involved.
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Milwaukee Police Department Finds Problems With Guns

Posted: April 17th, 2009 01:30 PM EDT

Story by wisn.com

MILWAUKEE --

The Milwaukee Police Department found that there is a serious problem with its guns.

Officer Vidal Colon was injured over the weekend in a shootout, in which his gun jammed.

The police chief has known about the problem for a year, but he is now taking immediate action following Saturday’s shooting.

The chief sent a memo to the entire police department about the weapon problem.
On Saturday, Colon responded to a report of a man armed with a gun near 36th and Scott streets.
Colon fired his gun 13 times, and the suspect, Louis Domenech, shot back six times, refusing to drop his weapon, said police.

Both men were hit, and police have been investigating the shootout. They learned that one bullet casing had stovepiped, or jammed, in the officer’s weapon.

Police said stovepiping can be caused by technique depending on the position of the gun.

But, the memo to the department revealed that the problem could be with the gun itself.

"We had experienced a number of issues on the range with our issued Glock model 22, .40 caliber duty pistol magazines, which represents 45 percent of our issued weapons," said Flynn in the memo.

The chief became aware of the problem in January 2008. Since then, "Glock has replaced 2,700 pistol magazines at no cost to the Milwaukee Police Department," said Flynn in the memo.

The memo also said that the department addressed the issue with officers during a 2008 in-service firearms training session.

But, according to the memo, 300 weapons have been transitioned while 600 remain.
On Thursday night, training division personnel are exchanging the magazines in the remaining 600 firearms.
The memo went on to say that due to an abudance of caution, the academy will be operating 24 hours a day for the next three days or until the magazines have been replaced.

Flynn also said the protocol in issuing the magazines made the most sense because the only malfunctions reported were taking place at the shooting range.
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