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Old November 14, 2009, 02:22 PM   #1
darkgael
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pistol shotshells - proved myself wrong.

We see posts fairly frequently concerning loading shot for use in a pistol. My standard response is that the loads are ineffective because the rifling spins the shot charge into a torus in short order.
I had a picture of such a pattern that had been shot with a Moisin-Nagant pistol
I lost that picture and decided to make/take another.
I used a .44 mag case, a .44 Speer shot hull and #9 shot.
I tried it today, fully expecting a donut shaped pattern.
I got something else.
[IMG][/IMG]
That is a 90% pattern - at five yards from a Ruger BH.
Go figure.
Peye
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Old November 14, 2009, 03:51 PM   #2
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Hey Dark,

I have also found that to be the case with my revolvers. I have a Ruger Security Six .357 with a 2 1/2 inch barrel and a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag with a 7 1/2 inch barrel. With either gun, I get the same results with #9 shot out to 15 feet. In my case, however, I do not use plastic shot holders. I simply use the Magnum cases with once gas check seated directly on the powder, then fill the case with shot, and then cover the shot with a second gas check that will be right at the top of the case, and follow this with a rounded crimp that holds the top gas check in place. The first or bottom gas check is placed in the case with its "skirt" up toward the case mouth. The second gas check is placed atop the shot with its "skirt" down toward the case head. You have to do some figuring to determine how much powder and how much shot can be used in either load, but my loads are designed to maximize the amount of shot.

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Old November 14, 2009, 05:37 PM   #3
darkgael
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shot

Dave: I've been meaning to try that with larger calibers - the gas check method. I did it with a Moisin Nagant round and got an almost perfect donut. There was nothing (well, maybe a couple) in the middle. Same happened with a .45-70 and a shot capsule.
But this....this is a fine pattern.
Pete
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Old November 14, 2009, 05:58 PM   #4
David Wile
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Hey Pete,

I certainly don't know for sure, but somone once suggested that the doughnut effect for a shot pattern may be more pronounced with a longer rifled barrel, and that short pistol barrels are not long enough to produce the effect. I know my two pistol barrels (2 1/2 and 7 1/2 inches) do not doughnut the pattern at less than 15 feet. I guess I ought to make a shot load for my Marlin Cowboy rifle with its 26 inch barrel and try it. There's a big difference between my pistols and my Cowboy rifle. I'm down in Florida for the month, so I cannot do it right now. I will try to keep it in mind for when I get back home.

At fifteen feet, my pistol patterns are starting to open up quite a bit compared to a shotgun, but there still isn't a doughnut hole, and I think there are enough shot in the center to kill a snake. At ten feet, the pattern is really quite tight and would probably kill or at least put down a coyote sized animal. I make the shot loads to use on snakes, and while I have never had to kill a snake, I am sure both of my pistol shot loads will serve me well.

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Old November 14, 2009, 11:28 PM   #5
ilbob
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I have shot commerical 44 and 357 shot loads at targets 10 to 15 feet out and never noticed any donut pattern. And the patterns seemd pretty decent.
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Old November 15, 2009, 02:16 AM   #6
darkgael
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patterns

Quote:
At fifteen feet, my pistol patterns are starting to open up quite a bit compared to a shotgun,
Yeah, that is true. Assuming that a pistol bore is a cylinder choke, that pattern should be about ten inches wide at five yards; it is closer to twenty.
Pete

LATER - remeasured -pattern was about 16-17 inches.
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Old November 15, 2009, 10:26 AM   #7
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Hey Pete,

Twenty inches at fifteen feet from a pistol is really perfect for what I want it to do. Just look at the pattern in your picture. That is a perfect pattern for small targets whether they are snakes or even small game if need be. My .357 Mag. load would not have as many shot on the paper as your .44 Mag. load, but it, too, would be effective for snakes. As far as snakes go, even a rattlesnake is not likely to be a threat if it is still fifteen feet away. Try loading some .44 Mags with gas checks and see if you get similar results. I suspect you will. If you don't have any gas checks, don't buy any. Give me your address then wait until I get home at the end of the month, and I will gladly send you a couple dozen gas checks to try. I will send you some regular copper Hornady gas checks, I will also send you some gas checks I made from aluminum soda can stock. With the price of copper gas checks going up in price so high, it is nice to be able to make your own. You can try them both.

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Old November 15, 2009, 03:13 PM   #8
darkgael
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.45 Colt

Having tried the .44 with a Speer shot capsule, I loaded up some .45 Colt. I used two 45 cal Walter's wads over 8.0 grains of SR7625, #9 shot (weighed out at 154 grains - 205 shot), and one wad over the shot. A good roll crimp.
It shot virtually as well as the .44 load. This was from a Ruger Vaquero 4.5" barrel:

[IMG][/IMG]

If you examine the pattern, you can see the beginning of the spin effect as one side of the pattern (16" wide) has more shot, though density is pretty good in any case.
Between this one and the other, the pattern opens at about three inches a yard (SG cyl is two per yard nominal.)
Pete
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Old November 15, 2009, 05:50 PM   #9
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That's Bad to the Bone!

You've definitely got it coming together. I'm guessing recoil is minimal...?
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Old November 15, 2009, 08:39 PM   #10
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For snakes I load with #11 shot the pattern is a lot denser, you don't get as much range but on snakes you are working close or you will be able to walk around them without having to shoot..
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Old November 15, 2009, 09:36 PM   #11
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Hey Arms,

I agree with you about not needing much range for snakes, but can you tell me where you get #11 shot? I have never seen it for sale. I think #11 shot would be a good size for use on rattlesnakes. In all the years I have been reloading, the smallest I could get was #9.

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Old November 15, 2009, 09:46 PM   #12
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If I remember right, Ballistic Products Inc has 11 and possibly 12 shot. I dont know if it comes smaller than 25lb bags though. I would have to go look. (yep 10lb bags) Thats alot of snake loads! I think it would work better than my 9 shot though.

Last edited by reloader28; November 16, 2009 at 09:48 AM.
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Old November 15, 2009, 10:16 PM   #13
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I've loaded shot loads in 45 Colt and 45-70 using wonder wads (felt wads) over the powder, then No 9 shot, then either a gas check crimped on top, or card wads made from milk cartons cut out with an old junk case shapened with a deburring tool. I lightly stake crimped over the top of the card wad in 4 spots, and sealed with a touch of shellac.

15 feet is about as far as the patterns have stayed good for me, after that, the ones I've tried start to open up noticably. 10 feet is better tho. Thats enough to kill snakes.

30-30 with round ball loads work well also, as do 45-70 round ball loads, for snakes as well as small game.

Someone mentioned that beyond a particular distance they arent dangerous. That isnt exactly my concern, I tend to shoot snakes around my place, or anywhere I'm out with my dogs so I dont have a problem in the future. I've almost stepped on a bunch of them, had one dog bit and almost die, one in the house once, under the porch steps in the dark, in the yard, in the barn door that I stepped over going in and only saw coming out, and had dogs either walk right by them or had one come out of a bush behind a dog from behind. I just can't arouse too much sympathy for snakes.
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Old November 16, 2009, 06:48 PM   #14
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Good Snake !!!

I use 357 max formed to fit in the cyl of a mag. & talk about payload!!!!
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Old November 16, 2009, 08:03 PM   #15
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I had a small bag of 12's that I bought locally then it disappeared from the shop so when I saw the 1 bag of 11's I pounced on it. don't remember the mfgr.
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Old November 18, 2009, 02:49 AM   #16
bamaranger
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dead rat

I've had some .44mag shot shells around for YEARS, seems like 8 shot (scavenged from a 12 ga) and 6 grs unique.

Rats in the wood shed, last night. First shot, 15 ft appx, rat rolled and got away. Second shot, 10 ft, very dead rat, plus, the dang stuff shot THROUGH the galvanized tin on the shed!!!!!!!!!!

Well....I got the pistol 'cause I figured the .410 WOULD shoot through, but the handgun would not. I've got about a 1 ft pattern on the side of the shed to remind me I was wrong.
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Old November 18, 2009, 11:02 AM   #17
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Hey Bamaranger,

Good story - makes one smile. Thanks.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile
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Old November 18, 2009, 11:09 AM   #18
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BAMA... switching to smaller shot should cut the penitration... ( a test sheet is better than shooting through the shed though )
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