Seating bullets ..... first timer questions

michaeltpo · December 28, 2009, 01:05 AM

I have to admit this reloading is pretty interesting. I've been acquiring the stuff for the past year and a half.

Ok. Im' practicing some of the reloading stages prior to actual reloading.
Here's what I got:
-Lee single stage press.
-Lee Deluxe 30 06 die set.
-#2 shell holder.
-Many HXP rounds from the CMP (1323 to be precise).
-I have decapped/full length resized (the same procedure) a few of these. That seems pretty straight forward.

I decided to practice seating bullets on the cases I decapped/full length resized. I decided to have my OAL be the same as a small sample of some of my HXP 30 06 ammunition, which is 3.325 inches. So I guess what I'm trying to do is to seat my bullets until they bring the OAL down to 3.325 inches.

#1 Question/Topic: -When using the Lee deluxe bullet seating die should I be able to get the same exact seating depth for every different cartridge I make. I mean within 5 ten thousands. I did some test seatings and made adjustments on the seating depth until my first one came out to 3.325 inches. I thought great...now I'll just do another...with the same setting and get the same result. Not quite. I get some variance. On some I get 3.325 and every now and then I'll get 3.319. The lug/ adjusting screw at the top does seem to be a bit loose/wobly if I push on it sideways. Should the adjusting screw be screwed in all the way tight (or enough to make it tight) and then back the die out a bit from the press? The way the instructions read was (with the press in the up position) to "seat the die a quarter turn past the point it hits the shell holder" and "then adjust the bullet seat depth with the adjusting nut". I did that but to seat a bullet to my 3.325 inches I have to back off on the top adjusting screw so much that the screw seems a bit loose/wobly.

#2 Question/Topic: The bullets I'm using to practice with are Golden West Brass products. They have the ridged/etched line for about where the bullet should be seated. Sorry I don't know what that's called. Canneluer? Anyway. Is that a hard and fast mark or could the bullet be seated above or below that line as long as the cartridge is within OAL specs.

#3 Question/Topic: Should 30 06 bullets be crimped. I'll be shooting Garand and 1903A3 so I'm not sure if that'll make a difference.

#4 Are the Le Deluxe Dies carbide or do they require case lube?

I appreciated any help anyone could offer. I'm going slow and I don't want to break anything ...especially me! Thanks.
Michael

Ivan · December 28, 2009, 01:27 AM

1. I personally don't know at the moment. I am sure I have their Deluxe dies, but never had the same experience. Also, how consistent are the bullets? I don't know the brand you are using. There is also the possibility depending on your press that it is springing a bit.

2. Seat it to where you find appropriate as long as you haven't jammed the bullet into the rifling.

3. No need to crimp for those guns. As long as your neck tension is sufficient so that the bullet isn't seated any deeper during your feed cycle, there should be no issues.

4. All bottlenecked rifle cases need to be lubricated before resizing even if the dies are carbide which is unlikely for us hobbyists. Carbide rifle dies are REALLLLLLY expensive.

I forget if HXP cases have crimped in primers. If they do, you will need to remove the crimp so that it doesn't interfere with seating the new primer. You can test the process by seeing if you can seat a spent primer without issues.

Good Luck!
- Ivan.

warnerwh · December 28, 2009, 01:39 AM

My bullets for my 30-06 are 180gr. Remingon Core-Lokt bullets. I bought 500 of them in a bulk box so they're not some expensive big name bullets. The points of these bullets vary a bit and OAL can vary a few thousandths. Groups out of my Marlin XL7 are 3/4" at 100 yards so accuracy isn't affected. I see no need to try any other bullet or spend a dime more. These work well on deer and elk just in case you're interested in a good bullet to try.

michaeltpo · December 28, 2009, 01:53 AM

but even if one bullet varied by 5 ten tousands from another I'm still only pressing both rounds into the seating die enough to have the same clearance ... everytime for my set cartridge length ..which I was trying to get to be 3.325 inches. Wouldn't the OAL be the same for both rounds?

To me, either the stroke is not the same or the seating depth has some variance. but I admit I don't know very much.
Thanks.

Sport45 · December 28, 2009, 02:25 AM

The OAL varies because the seating die doesn't press on the tip of the bullet. The stem has a tapered hollow that contacts the bullet on its ogive (the diminishing OD area of the bullet). Since the bullets aren't exactly alike the OAL won't be exactly the same either. This shouldn't make any difference at all in your rifles. Load short enough to fit in the magazines (internal) and you're good to go. They sell devices to measure cartridge length from the base to a reference diameter on the ogive for comparisons like you're trying to make but I don't own one.

michaeltpo · December 28, 2009, 03:09 AM

I think I understand. OAL is measured from the tip of the bullet to the "tail" of the cartridge but since the ogives have slightly variable tapers (and that's the point where the bullets are being pushed into the dies) so there should be some slight variance in OAL. That makes sense. Thanks!

It does leads to my next question:
Does OAL have a great significance upon accuracy or is it more of a safety thing. I know it is for safety but I thought it was also for accuracy too. I was trying to be able to set the OAL the same everytime to within a couple ten thousanths. I've read of the precision shooters setting bullet depth to be where the bullet is only say, .0005 inches (that number may be wildly off) from the throat of the rifle. Is that a matter of trial and error or the tool Sport45 mentioned.

Another question brought up in my mind is: Bullet tension? What is it and how would I know if I don't have enough or too much before my rifle blows up?

Also how far at a minimum or maximum should a bullet be seated in a case?

Thanks very much for the education.

Michael

Sport45 · December 28, 2009, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Does OAL have a great significance upon accuracy or is it more of a safety thing. I know it is for safety but I thought it was also for accuracy too. I was trying to be able to set the OAL the same everytime to within a couple ten thousanths. I've read of the precision shooters setting bullet depth to be where the bullet is only say, .0005 inches (that number may be wildly off) from the throat of the rifle. Is that a matter of trial and error or the tool Sport45 mentioned.

OAL really only determines whether or not the cartridge will fit in a magazine. When they seat a bullet to be a specific distance off the rifling lands they measure from that OD on the ogive. I can almost guarantee that if you seat anywhere near the lands on your M1 the round will not fit in the magazine. You might be able to make it in the 03A3 if there's very little throat erosion.

Quote:

Another question brought up in my mind is: Bullet tension? What is it and how would I know if I don't have enough or too much before my rifle blows up?

When you size a case the die closes the neck a bit. On its way out of the case the expander button opens it back up to an ID that is a few thousandths of an inch smaller than the bullet. The interference fit between the seated bullet and case neck is the neck tension. A good way to test neck tension is to press the tip of the bullet against the wooden edge of your workbench (into a small hole if you're worried about deforming the tip) and see if you can press the bullet further into the case with moderate pressure, maybe 10-15 lbs. You should not be able to. Unless your sizing die is worn out or you are using a .311 button (303 Brit) in your '06 die you should have plenty of neck tension. Crimping is not necessary for either of your rifles IMHO.

Quote:

Also how far at a minimum or maximum should a bullet be seated in a case?

A rule of thumb is to have at least one bullet diameter (0.308" in your case) seated in the neck. This is a good rule for hunting rifles and semi-automatics because you really don't want those bullets moving. For bolt actions that only see bench use you can get by with less as the cartridges are treated more gently. Load manuals generally give a minimum OAL. Seating shorter than the minimum means the end of the bullet is taking up more space in the case than the testers allowed for and unexpected pressure excursions may result.

wncchester · December 28, 2009, 09:42 AM

Mr. Sport45 has given you much good info.

"Does OAL have a great significance upon accuracy or is it more of a safety thing. I know it is for safety..."

OAL/seating depth has some significance on accuracy but very little to do with "safety". Reloading safety comes from starting low and working up ONLY if no excess pressure indicators occur before reaching book max.

"but I thought it was also for accuracy too."

Where the OAL tip of the bullet (meplat) ends up has no impact on accuracy. How much travel the bullet has before it impacts the rifling does have an effect on accuracy but even that is a range, not a specific point.

"I was trying to be able to set the OAL the same everytime to within a couple ten thousanths."

Nice try but not possible, not with our tools and components! Too much variation in our press linkages, bullet ogive shape, etc. Not likely to be due to the die tho, the seating stem flexability not withstanding, and that level of seating precision really isn't even helpful. A seating depth consistancy of 4-5 thou is plenty for factory rifles, that's some 20-25 times more than your goal!

"I've read of the precision shooters setting bullet depth to be where the bullet is only say, .0005 inches (that number may be wildly off) from the throat of the rifle."

The precision shooters you speak of aren't loading bulk, off the shelf bullets into common cases for factory rifles with sloppy chambers but you are. Most factory rifles/common ammo shoot better with bullets from .025" to 4x that much off the lands. A seating variation of only a few thousants gets lost in that much jump through the throat to the lands!

Measuring a consistant OAL from case head to meplat would require bullets made with far more precision than what we can buy at a gun store. Most of us measure from head to the ogive diameter that matches the bore diameter but seaters work on the ogive much further up on the bullet so individual bullet variations still come into play. Only bullets hand made on a single forming die can avoid those small differences we live with, and we don't normally get to buy them at a gun store.

Bottom line, I suspect your present seating consistancy is fine.

Crimping for a bolt gun is optional.

Lee's Deluxe dies for handguns are carbide and don't requrie lube. The Deluxe dies for rifles are NOT carbide, they DO require lube, especially down near the head at the thickest part of the cases or you WILL have a stuck case.

snyper503 · December 28, 2009, 01:24 PM

The above posted replies are right on with their accuracy. Pay close attention to them. I would also recommend making a "dummy" round that is set the the exact length you are looking to achieve. Use this "dummy" round to give you the ititial set-up for your press each time you insert the die. Back off just slightly from that setting and seat your first round. Check with Calipers to determine length, make the minor adjustment, and then check again to confirm.

If you are concerned about excess preasures, watch your spent primers closely. They are a great first sign indicator. Look for carbon around the primer showing signs that powder came through. This is a sure sign of excess preasure. Remember to examine each case closely before reloading. Throw away anything that doesn't look right. Brass isn't THAT expensive to risk your health or life.

michaeltpo · December 28, 2009, 01:51 PM

Thanks very much. More questioins will follow I'm sure.

mkl · December 28, 2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Many HXP rounds from the CMP (1323 to be precise).

Most has been covered in the other replies, but there is one thing I'd suggest to help you feel better about your seating techniques.

Measure the OAL of about 20 of your bullets. Does the variance from base to bullet tip come close to the difference in cartridge OAL you are experiencing? This statement assumes your were measuring cartridgte OAL from case head to bullet tip, not bullet ogive.

snyper503 · December 28, 2009, 05:51 PM

Reloading for your M1 should be relatively simple as, being a military weapon, its designed to "eat" just about anything (within reason). With that said, let me also caution you to get a good reloading manual and read it cover-to-cover before you start. It may be boring at times, but even the smallest mistake can mean big problems. ...and as always DON'T BE AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS!!! Enjoy!

December 28, 2009, 02:25 AM	#5
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	The OAL varies because the seating die doesn't press on the tip of the bullet. The stem has a tapered hollow that contacts the bullet on its ogive (the diminishing OD area of the bullet). Since the bullets aren't exactly alike the OAL won't be exactly the same either. This shouldn't make any difference at all in your rifles. Load short enough to fit in the magazines (internal) and you're good to go. They sell devices to measure cartridge length from the base to a reference diameter on the ogive for comparisons like you're trying to make but I don't own one. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

December 28, 2009, 03:09 AM	#6
michaeltpo Junior Member Join Date: December 27, 2009 Posts: 12	Thanks I think I understand. OAL is measured from the tip of the bullet to the "tail" of the cartridge but since the ogives have slightly variable tapers (and that's the point where the bullets are being pushed into the dies) so there should be some slight variance in OAL. That makes sense. Thanks! It does leads to my next question: Does OAL have a great significance upon accuracy or is it more of a safety thing. I know it is for safety but I thought it was also for accuracy too. I was trying to be able to set the OAL the same everytime to within a couple ten thousanths. I've read of the precision shooters setting bullet depth to be where the bullet is only say, .0005 inches (that number may be wildly off) from the throat of the rifle. Is that a matter of trial and error or the tool Sport45 mentioned. Another question brought up in my mind is: Bullet tension? What is it and how would I know if I don't have enough or too much before my rifle blows up? Also how far at a minimum or maximum should a bullet be seated in a case? Thanks very much for the education. Michael Last edited by michaeltpo; December 28, 2009 at 03:13 AM. Reason: spelling

December 28, 2009, 09:42 AM	#8
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	Mr. Sport45 has given you much good info. "Does OAL have a great significance upon accuracy or is it more of a safety thing. I know it is for safety..." OAL/seating depth has some significance on accuracy but very little to do with "safety". Reloading safety comes from starting low and working up ONLY if no excess pressure indicators occur before reaching book max. "but I thought it was also for accuracy too." Where the OAL tip of the bullet (meplat) ends up has no impact on accuracy. How much travel the bullet has before it impacts the rifling does have an effect on accuracy but even that is a range, not a specific point. "I was trying to be able to set the OAL the same everytime to within a couple ten thousanths." Nice try but not possible, not with our tools and components! Too much variation in our press linkages, bullet ogive shape, etc. Not likely to be due to the die tho, the seating stem flexability not withstanding, and that level of seating precision really isn't even helpful. A seating depth consistancy of 4-5 thou is plenty for factory rifles, that's some 20-25 times more than your goal! "I've read of the precision shooters setting bullet depth to be where the bullet is only say, .0005 inches (that number may be wildly off) from the throat of the rifle." The precision shooters you speak of aren't loading bulk, off the shelf bullets into common cases for factory rifles with sloppy chambers but you are. Most factory rifles/common ammo shoot better with bullets from .025" to 4x that much off the lands. A seating variation of only a few thousants gets lost in that much jump through the throat to the lands! Measuring a consistant OAL from case head to meplat would require bullets made with far more precision than what we can buy at a gun store. Most of us measure from head to the ogive diameter that matches the bore diameter but seaters work on the ogive much further up on the bullet so individual bullet variations still come into play. Only bullets hand made on a single forming die can avoid those small differences we live with, and we don't normally get to buy them at a gun store. Bottom line, I suspect your present seating consistancy is fine. Crimping for a bolt gun is optional. Lee's Deluxe dies for handguns are carbide and don't requrie lube. The Deluxe dies for rifles are NOT carbide, they DO require lube, especially down near the head at the thickest part of the cases or you WILL have a stuck case. Last edited by wncchester; December 28, 2009 at 10:00 AM.

December 28, 2009, 01:51 PM	#10
michaeltpo Junior Member Join Date: December 27, 2009 Posts: 12	Excellent information. Thanks very much. More questioins will follow I'm sure.

December 28, 2009, 01:05 AM	#1
michaeltpo Junior Member Join Date: December 27, 2009 Posts: 12	Seating bullets ..... first timer questions I have to admit this reloading is pretty interesting. I've been acquiring the stuff for the past year and a half. Ok. Im' practicing some of the reloading stages prior to actual reloading. Here's what I got: -Lee single stage press. -Lee Deluxe 30 06 die set. -#2 shell holder. -Many HXP rounds from the CMP (1323 to be precise). -I have decapped/full length resized (the same procedure) a few of these. That seems pretty straight forward. I decided to practice seating bullets on the cases I decapped/full length resized. I decided to have my OAL be the same as a small sample of some of my HXP 30 06 ammunition, which is 3.325 inches. So I guess what I'm trying to do is to seat my bullets until they bring the OAL down to 3.325 inches. #1 Question/Topic: -When using the Lee deluxe bullet seating die should I be able to get the same exact seating depth for every different cartridge I make. I mean within 5 ten thousands. I did some test seatings and made adjustments on the seating depth until my first one came out to 3.325 inches. I thought great...now I'll just do another...with the same setting and get the same result. Not quite. I get some variance. On some I get 3.325 and every now and then I'll get 3.319. The lug/ adjusting screw at the top does seem to be a bit loose/wobly if I push on it sideways. Should the adjusting screw be screwed in all the way tight (or enough to make it tight) and then back the die out a bit from the press? The way the instructions read was (with the press in the up position) to "seat the die a quarter turn past the point it hits the shell holder" and "then adjust the bullet seat depth with the adjusting nut". I did that but to seat a bullet to my 3.325 inches I have to back off on the top adjusting screw so much that the screw seems a bit loose/wobly. #2 Question/Topic: The bullets I'm using to practice with are Golden West Brass products. They have the ridged/etched line for about where the bullet should be seated. Sorry I don't know what that's called. Canneluer? Anyway. Is that a hard and fast mark or could the bullet be seated above or below that line as long as the cartridge is within OAL specs. #3 Question/Topic: Should 30 06 bullets be crimped. I'll be shooting Garand and 1903A3 so I'm not sure if that'll make a difference. #4 Are the Le Deluxe Dies carbide or do they require case lube? I appreciated any help anyone could offer. I'm going slow and I don't want to break anything ...especially me! Thanks. Michael Last edited by michaeltpo; December 28, 2009 at 01:07 AM. Reason: spelling

December 28, 2009, 01:27 AM	#2
Ivan Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Posts: 141	1. I personally don't know at the moment. I am sure I have their Deluxe dies, but never had the same experience. Also, how consistent are the bullets? I don't know the brand you are using. There is also the possibility depending on your press that it is springing a bit. 2. Seat it to where you find appropriate as long as you haven't jammed the bullet into the rifling. 3. No need to crimp for those guns. As long as your neck tension is sufficient so that the bullet isn't seated any deeper during your feed cycle, there should be no issues. 4. All bottlenecked rifle cases need to be lubricated before resizing even if the dies are carbide which is unlikely for us hobbyists. Carbide rifle dies are REALLLLLLY expensive. I forget if HXP cases have crimped in primers. If they do, you will need to remove the crimp so that it doesn't interfere with seating the new primer. You can test the process by seeing if you can seat a spent primer without issues. Good Luck! - Ivan.

December 28, 2009, 01:39 AM	#3
warnerwh Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2009 Posts: 329	My bullets for my 30-06 are 180gr. Remingon Core-Lokt bullets. I bought 500 of them in a bulk box so they're not some expensive big name bullets. The points of these bullets vary a bit and OAL can vary a few thousandths. Groups out of my Marlin XL7 are 3/4" at 100 yards so accuracy isn't affected. I see no need to try any other bullet or spend a dime more. These work well on deer and elk just in case you're interested in a good bullet to try. __________________ Portland, Or

December 28, 2009, 01:53 AM	#4
michaeltpo Junior Member Join Date: December 27, 2009 Posts: 12	Maybe I'm missing the point but even if one bullet varied by 5 ten tousands from another I'm still only pressing both rounds into the seating die enough to have the same clearance ... everytime for my set cartridge length ..which I was trying to get to be 3.325 inches. Wouldn't the OAL be the same for both rounds? To me, either the stroke is not the same or the seating depth has some variance. but I admit I don't know very much. Thanks.

December 28, 2009, 01:24 PM	#9
snyper503 Junior Member Join Date: December 21, 2009 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13	The above posted replies are right on with their accuracy. Pay close attention to them. I would also recommend making a "dummy" round that is set the the exact length you are looking to achieve. Use this "dummy" round to give you the ititial set-up for your press each time you insert the die. Back off just slightly from that setting and seat your first round. Check with Calipers to determine length, make the minor adjustment, and then check again to confirm. If you are concerned about excess preasures, watch your spent primers closely. They are a great first sign indicator. Look for carbon around the primer showing signs that powder came through. This is a sure sign of excess preasure. Remember to examine each case closely before reloading. Throw away anything that doesn't look right. Brass isn't THAT expensive to risk your health or life.

December 28, 2009, 05:51 PM	#12
snyper503 Junior Member Join Date: December 21, 2009 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13	Reloading for your M1 should be relatively simple as, being a military weapon, its designed to "eat" just about anything (within reason). With that said, let me also caution you to get a good reloading manual and read it cover-to-cover before you start. It may be boring at times, but even the smallest mistake can mean big problems. ...and as always DON'T BE AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS!!! Enjoy!