H2H or martial arts?

[GreenDragon]

I've been thinking of pursuing some kind of training in hand to hand combat for self defense. Are there any courses (preferably southern PA of a class) or any martial arts in particular. So far judo seems to be the best one to know (I think I read something to that effect once before). There is someone in the area who teaches some bizarre self-defense class in the area who trains local cops. Would an alternative style such as this be a good idea?
thanks
josh

[swatman]

Hello Green Dragon,
I also am from Pa. I have taken kickboxing, boxing, and Karate. I studied the kickboxing and karate with Terry Nye for quite awhile.
He definately teaches some realistic self-defense tactics also and found it very helpful. There are pro's and cons to each style. Karate is something that generally takes much longer to master. While boxing is more of the type of style you may well encounter on the street so even if you decide not to take it up, you should definately have an understanding of it.
If you have the opportunity to take classes as your local law enforcement that may be one of your best bets since they are tought proper grappling techniques and and weapon retention, etc. where is that located? I may be interested in that place myself
There is also a good place just South of Reading called Red Dragon Karate which has courses in a wide Variety of combat styles including weapons training.
Good luck

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"what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?"

[Adam]

Personally, I prefer Brazilian jiu-jitsu to just about anything I've seen or done. If you mix it with wrestling and boxing, you can become extremely competent in unarmed combat. Even without the latter two styles, BJJ is probably the most all inclusive system I have ever seen. If you spend some time in it (with a good instructor) you will eventually pick up judo throws, wrestling takedowns, basic (easy to apply) kicks, clinching, etc. It is truly a devastating system. I have been in it for about seven years now, and come from a wrestling/boxing background. I am still always learning something new in BJJ. I recently learned several neck breaks I had never seen before. BJJ allows you to subdue an attacker without doing much damage (thus, a lot of LAPD are learning it); or, if you want, you can break their necks, among other things. I could go on and on about it, but don't want to bore you. Good luck in whatever you study.

[GreenDragon]

Wow swatman, small world. I live about ten minutes away from you. The place I was talking about is just a little this side of York. Some guy named Tony Kanaly. I can find out the name of the place if you'd like. ALso, you know of any gun clubs/shooting ranges around here? Solanco (I used to be a member there) is too far from here and the only public range I know of is in York.

[swatman]

Ther is a public shooting range in lititz Called wholesale shooter's supplies. It is a gunshop with a range out back with target set up at 25, 100 and200 yards. You can use rifle or pistol. it is 2 dollars to use the range per weapon. I am a memeber of field and stream shooting club up in Emmaus Pa as well. Sure I would live to hear of this instructor you were talking about.

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"what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?"

[GreenDragon]

That guy in Elm (WSS) gave me a real sh:tty attitude a few years back so I vowed never to go back. I'd like to find a place with a pistol range and maybe somewhere to shoot clays too.
I'll look the number up for that guy next time I'm in york and I'll post it here.

[swatman]

Green Dragon,
The place I go in Emmaus is only 25 dollars a year. They have pistol range, rifle and archery ranges.
There are two shooting clubs around here. One is Manheim sportsmans association and another is in New Holland. May want to check the yellow pages. sure let me knoe the person's number with that training. You may email me as well

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"what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?"

[Para Bellum]

Hi,

The martial arts can be divided into three fields: Self-Defence, Martial Sports and so-called "Soft" Martial Arts.

Self-Defence need not be graceful, fair or an appropriate subject of competition. It need only be effective and easy to recall. Focussing on real-life situations, self-defence systems need to provide for appropriate and reliable ways for a suprised defendant to protect him/herself without taking risks. Self-defence therefore rather be radical and simple. The best self-defence system I know is ATK.

Martial Sports have a totally different aim. Though they mostly originated from real-life combat techniques, they have changed in order to give a forum for fair competition. Sometimes they are as far away from self-defence as olympic fencing is from an ancient swordfight. They give rise to tremendous athletic and acrobatic performance. Such Martial Sports are e.g. TaeKwonDo, Judo, Karate, Wrestling and (Kick-) Boxing.

"Soft" Martial Arts should not be misunderstood. Although they focus on the art as such, they can be very tough. Usually they take very long to be learned and don't provide a forum for competition. E.g. Aikido and Chinese Kung-Fu Styles are usually neither practiced for athletic nor self-defence purposes. However, they can be extremly demanding and effective once one has reached master's skills.

To come to an end: Try to get some real self-defense training from military personnel. If you can't. Jiu-Jitsu is the most comprehensive system I know. Forget Kicks and Punches. You must do it as a sport 3x a week to get it right and effective. And there is nothing more pittyful than a grappled boxer. Judo is a good sport. It is the "soft-way (ju-do)" and basically jiu-jitsu with all the effective stuff left out (because it's no sport if you werck your sparring partner in a second).

Stay safe.

[SNoB]

If you want self defense, id suggest krav maga. There are no "sport" elements, its designed to disable/kill your attacker, and nothing else.

[Ninjato]

If you want to and can find the time that we can schedule a time we can meet, I can give you a basic run down on what can and cannot be effective. email me at [email protected] if you are interested. I'm in the Philadelphia area and my studio is www.baztaichi.com


I have trained in the arts for over 33 years and have studied Judo, Okinawan Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Shaolin Kung Fu and currently Tai Chi Chuan and have been teaching Tai Chi Chuan since 1995 w/ my main focus today on Bajichuan.

I disagree w/ the comments that the "soft" arts do not focus on self defense but I do agree that it does take a longer time to master and the training at times can be grueling and feel like a waste of time......you only realize much later why you had to train the way you did.

The most important thing to do is NOT to get caught up w/ the fad style of the time. Although there may be authentic schools out there, in my experience and teaching, I have found that most instructors that offer these new "styles" or self defense systems are phoneys and really have no solid foundation.

Not to contradict anyone but the distinction has to made as to what you are looking for. Sport? Aerobic fitness? Self Defense? or Conflict resolution?

A full marital art program is all about CONFLICT RESOLUTION (whatever the conflict is and whatever needs to be done to resolve it). Self defense is hit and run like hell. Sport is sweat your ass off and anything you learn will be a detriment to you in the real world of self defense.

I've been thinking of pursuing some kind of training in hand to hand combat for self defense

Hand to hand combat training is NOT self defense training...it is COMBAT training. It is much different.

[DT Guy]

It's ironic that today we can have a discussion regarding 'martial arts' versus 'military hand-to-hand', when 'martial', after all, means 'military.'




Larry

[chris in va]

FWIW, I talked with a cop friend of mine for a while the other night, and after taking martial arts classes for years when he was younger, he has never used any of it in real life.

[Blind Tree Frog]

something else to consider is how the style you want to take looks at the fight that will take place. Consider the difference between Judo and Jujitsu/BJJ. Judo goes with the approach that the fight will start standing, so if you can control your oponent there, you will win. JJ says the fight will eventually end up on the ground, so control there and you will win. Neither philosophy is wrong, but it's a different approach. JJ doesn't focus so much on the take downs so much as what to do when they are down. Judo however focuses more on the take downs because the assumption is, if you can control them to the ground, you are in control when you are on the ground.

You see this in various Kung Fu's too where the ones that developed in the country focus more on kicks and the ones from the cities focus on punches. Every style has a philosophy as to how the fight will play out. And every martial art developes primarily on this philosophy, be it from asia or europe or west indies or whatever. Every culture of reasonable age developed a martial art, so just shop around and find one that seems to work for you.

And don't worry too much about Multi-Style systems. Every style has weaknesses and strengths. The multi style people try to eliminate their weaknesses by taking conflicting styles that have different strengths... say Tai Kwon Doe and BJJ just to pick two. This is all well and good, but my personal opinion is that if you focus enough on one style and learn it's strengths and weaknesses inside and out, then you should be able to defend those weaknesses as well. After training for a couple years if you want to try something else go ahead, but it will take a while for any training to start being an effective method of self defense and even then, it could just be that that style isn't appropriate for you.

I took Judo for years with Olympic Class contenders. I'm still not really good enough to effectively use it 100% of the time.

[shooter01]

There is much to choose from, so I won't go into it. But the combination type martial arts have much to offer as opposed to the more "classical" disciplines when it comes to real-life self defense scenarios. Also they try to take what is most advantageous from various types and combine them. It probably is a good idea to combine grappling type methods with striking type methods, as a potential combat scenario is never an exact science, and because we all differ in physique, size and aptitude - as well as our physical surroundings. A confined space attack will in many important respects differ from an assault in a park. It is therefore important to be able to quickly adapt. Same of course applies when the skill level of attacker is unknown [which is more than likely to be the case in a typical scenario.] At the same time, the learning and practice of the chosen methods must always be accompanied by a training and physical fitness regimen, as well as a cultivation of a mindset which is calm and disciplined and focused. This is so often overlooked. Hopefully you would never need it in real life but you will become a better human being.

[Nimitz87]

wow this is a very informative thread...thanks guys.

few questions.


what is ATK

what is the difference in Brazilian jiu-jitsu vs normal jiu-jitsu

i myself believe most fist fights end on the ground...from watching and experiencing them.

so what "style" would you say meets these requirements.

doesnt require 20 years to master.... (exgaration)

can disable an opponent standing as well as on the ground...

to put it simple whats a style thats cut and dry and to the point?

ATK, Krav Manga or JJ/BJJ?

[Blind Tree Frog]

I know little about krav manga, so take this with a grain of salt.

If you beleive it's going to end up on the ground, look into JJ.

The history of Judo/JJ/BJJ as I remember it basically consists of the follow.

Long time ago in japan the samurai developed a fighting style that developed into JuJitsu (note, an -istu ending means it's focused on fighting/war, a -do ending means it's focused more on the self/sport). Problem is, the training for this basically consisted of getting into battles. Lots of people died and it didn't really work.

So this guy came along (who's name I don't remember, but I really should) and developed Judo which was a more friendly version. Structured rules meant that they could train in a controled enviroment and still become highly leathal. In fact, the test of skill was basically walking into the red light district of town, picking a fight, and dropping the guy in one hit. If it took more then one, you weren't good enough yet.

Judo got popular and was selected as a "state martial arts" of sorts. Eventually this lead to Judo vs Jujitsu competitions which judo won every time (except one back in day). Not that this really means anything, but I took judo, so forgive me for bragging. Anyhow, because of this, Jujistu fell by the way side and Judo took over in it's place.

Couple decades ago a branch of judo broke off and took the name of Jujitsu. I don't remember which branch or anything, I just remember it happened. Anyhow, the Gracies studied this and went back to brazil, which at the time was fairly brutal place to live. Now, the Gracies were a massive family. Basically the way that they trained was one would want to try a new move out, so he'd pick a fight at a party. The other 30 gracies at the party would keep the fight to just the two of them while the Gracie tried out the new move. Needless to say, it got a reputation of being a very brutal style (which is why I dont like a lot of BJJ practicioners). As far as what is different between it and Jujistu or the original JJ, I can't say.

BTW, as far as BJJ vs other styles. I believe the Gracies have a standing challenge against anyone that wants to fight them. The old masters in china don't bother with this ****, so who knows. There was a Judo vs BJJ match a while back though. One of the Gracies went up against.. I believe an olympic class (couple times over) black belt. The general consensus from everyone was that if the mat wasn't so soft, Gracie wouldn't of stayed conscious long enough to have his arm broken in 2 places and choked out. So what should you take from this? It doesn't matter what style you have. It matters who is in the fight.


Anyhow, as all 3 styles more or less come from the same root (I really want to say that the split happened like 60 years ago and BJJ is no older then 20 years, but I'm pulling those numbers out of my ass) and thus are very similar. Like I said before, the main difference is that Judo views the fight as starting standing so control there and drop them to the ground hard and B/JJ views the fight as ending up on the ground so control there. A good school in either really will focus on both aspects however.

BTW, with basic throws in Judo, I've made people bounce on the ground. I say this only because I agree with you that the fight will often end up on the ground, but there is something to be said about how they get to the ground. Dont' focus on just one aspect of the style and ignore the rest of it. I've talked to many BJJ practicioners who only seem to know one take down, hoping to own the fight on the ground. Even though when I took judo we focused a lot on the standing aspect, we spent almost as much time on the ground working there too just incase we weren't the ones doing the taking down.


But yeah, sounds like BJJ might work for you. Judo schools tend to be a bit more sport oriented, but you might find one you like there too. Go check a couple schools out. Talk to the teachers. Just don't expect to be able to defend yourself well for a few years. Well... Give it a year at least, grappling styles generally seem to show results a bit sooner since you can get away with brute force instead of finesse many times. But the fancy stuff like a rear sacrifice throw to an arm bar (falll on your back, with them flying through the air, when they land their arm is broken) will take time, especially to do them well and consistently.

EDIT:

BTW, the reason I don't like many BJJ practicioners is because of the brutality aspect. Many take it just because "it's the most brutal art in the world". It's not the art form that is brutal, but the person practicing it. BJJ is no more or less brutal then any other style, it's all in how you use it.

[accordingtome]

I would have to second the krav maga if you just want a good crash course in real world fighting / dirty fighting tricks. Im my class we take from all systems of fighting and put it simply as real world fighting with our main roots in okinawan lima lama, a hawaiian martial art. Its old school garage training and its not for everyone.
No one says you have to study only one system so in my very humble opinion you might want to take a few diff classes at the local Y or a few diff martial art schools until you feel you find something you like. Beware of schools that like to talk about how much they charge per class rather than seeing if your are really interested in learning. Everyone is different so good luck in finding your path.

[aussiedog]

FWIW, I talked with a cop friend of mine for a while the other night, and after taking martial arts classes for years when he was younger, he has never used any of it in real life

I suspect that he has used it far more than can be imagined...the physical aspect is but a small part of "Martial Arts".

[Nimitz87]

again this thread has been a great one

going to see if i can find a JJ/Judo/BJJ school around here...

thanks

Chad

[chris in va]

I suspect that he has used it far more than can be imagined...the physical aspect is but a small part of "Martial Arts".

Good point, I'll ask him about that next time we talk.

[Blind Tree Frog]

going to see if i can find a JJ/Judo/BJJ school around here...

Judo wise at least, most schools are sport oriented. Make sure you talk to the instructor about your self defense desires.

[Don Gwinn]

Long time ago in japan the samurai developed a fighting style that developed into JuJitsu (note, an -istu ending means it's focused on fighting/war, a -do ending means it's focused more on the self/sport). Problem is, the training for this basically consisted of getting into battles. Lots of people died and it didn't really work.

So this guy came along (who's name I don't remember, but I really should) and developed Judo which was a more friendly version. Structured rules meant that they could train in a controled enviroment and still become highly leathal. In fact, the test of skill was basically walking into the red light district of town, picking a fight, and dropping the guy in one hit. If it took more then one, you weren't good enough yet.

Judo got popular and was selected as a "state martial arts" of sorts. Eventually this lead to Judo vs Jujitsu competitions which judo won every time (except one back in day). Not that this really means anything, but I took judo, so forgive me for bragging. Anyhow, because of this, Jujistu fell by the way side and Judo took over in it's place.

Couple decades ago a branch of judo broke off and took the name of Jujitsu. I don't remember which branch or anything, I just remember it happened. Anyhow, the Gracies studied this and went back to brazil, which at the time was fairly brutal place to live. Now, the Gracies were a massive family. Basically the way that they trained was one would want to try a new move out, so he'd pick a fight at a party. The other 30 gracies at the party would keep the fight to just the two of them while the Gracie tried out the new move. Needless to say, it got a reputation of being a very brutal style (which is why I dont like a lot of BJJ practicioners). As far as what is different between it and Jujistu or the original JJ, I can't say.

• The guy who invented Judo was named Kano.
• You're the first one I've heard say the Gracies developed their art by fighting at parties instead of in the vale tudo ring and with each other.
• The Gracies did not leave Brazil. Helio Gracie and, I believe, his brother were taught Japanese jiu-jitsu by a visiting Japanese citizen to whom their father had been a help.
• You're also the first guy I've ever heard characterize BJJ and Gracie JJ in particular as "brutal," especially in comparison to Judo.
• Most of the differences between GJJ and JJJ are in the Gracies' use of the "guard" and their freewheeling approaching to rolling and setting up submissions, the result of adapting the art to no-holds-barred and MMA competition.

[Blind Tree Frog]

The guy who invented Judo was named Kano.

Thank you, I felt bad for not remembering that.

You're the first one I've heard say the Gracies developed their art by fighting at parties instead of in the vale tudo ring and with each other.

I picked that up from another forum who gave more or less the same history i gave (though he had more detail. That's what I get for being out of the loop for so long).

Honestly, I'd wager it was a mix of both. They had to train somewhere before they reached the ring. Do you have any idea where that might of occured? While I like the party idea, if it is in correct, I'd rather stop spreading it.

EDIT:
http://www.bjjboulder.com/adult/about.php

The mean streets of Brazil acted as very good testing grounds for these new modifications. Tested over and over again in challenge matches and professional Vale Tudo (No holds barred) fights, these new fighting techniques proved to be the most effective form of self defense around.

Some mix of both seems to be a good guess actually. Though I'd wager if the party stuff did occur, it would be the sons and not Helio and Carlos since when I was told it, the comment was that it was a large collection of them that could keep the fight small between just the two.

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5389/gracie.html this also supports the street fighting part of the training. It also lists some BJJ vs Judo fights I didn't know about.

The Gracies did not leave Brazil. Helio Gracie and, I believe, his brother were taught Japanese jiu-jitsu by a visiting Japanese citizen to whom their father had been a help.

Thanks for the correction. I felt that I was wrong saying that how I did, but I couldn't remember if some of them went to japan or a sensei came to them.

You're also the first guy I've ever heard characterize BJJ and Gracie JJ in particular as "brutal," especially in comparison to Judo.

I had heard that frequently from various sources. Generally in the same breath that they are saying that it is the most effective martial art in the world. So yeah, I'm hearing it from idiots who may not understand the context.

On a side note, you find judo more brutal?

Most of the differences between GJJ and JJJ are in the Gracies' use of the "guard" and their freewheeling approaching to rolling and setting up submissions, the result of adapting the art to no-holds-barred and MMA competition..

Thanks, I never was clear on that difference.

Any other corrections that you would like to add? (no really, I would rather that long post be correct, then long and full of inaccuracies to confuse people).


A more complete history:
http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/sensei6.html


EDIT:
Gah, I hate histories that say that Jiujitsu originated in india. I understand why they say that, but they really don't need to. Since I feel like venting.

there were a couple fighting styles that started in india and what not. Now, kung fu actually derived from this because the man that taught the monks came up from india (fun story). Since that area of asia is so well travelled, it spread pretty easily.

Eventually a grappling style came about in japan which was similiar to the stuff coming out of india a long time ago. Whether it was samurai going to the mainland and studying there or just witnessing it and trying to figure something out on their own that's similar, or just coincidently developing a similar style I've not yet heard anything conclusive on, but most of the discussion i've heard leans towards the latter two.

Really doesn't matter though. All sufficently old cultures will develop a fighting style. Even the French.

[shooter01]

Judo's founder was Prof.Jigoro Kano, and yes it is a milder form of ju-jitsu which essentially is a type of combat wrestling. It is also naturally of much more recent origin. Judo was taught in police departments worldwide, and it is interesting to note that President Roosevelt [of rough-rider corps. fame] was an early student. His first students lived together with him, as is often found in the older mainland monastic system of training and education, where their training and even diet was strictly supervised. Judo means "gentle way" in Japanese. Outside of wrestling and boxing it became the first full contact Olympic fighting sport. Prof. Kano did for this discipline what the great Masutatsu Oyama did years later for Karate. Interestingly enough Oyama did actually start out by studying Kodokan judo, so some grappling techniques can be found in Oyama karate, which he founded, but which is more properly classed as a variant of Kyukoshinkai karate. Oyama karate is a fantastic method of self-defense, but requires a tough physical training system.
True enough, any society old enough will evolve fighting systems of their own, but the Asian as opposed to Western systems, were fused with the religious and spiritual dimension. Buddhist monks, who early carried the mantle of this spiritual - religious system, and developed it, were for example forbidden to carry weapons. Naturally, to defend against armed assailants, these barehand techniques had to be developed to a tremendous degree. Witness the development of karate in Okinawa, where the people learned to use farming implements as weapons were prohibited by feudal lords. In the new world, the development of Capoeira by slaves followed a similar path.

[Ninjato]

A teacher once told me, "We take martial arts because we DON'T want to fight...if you want to fight, bring a gun."

Says it all for me.