Flashlights and low light shooting

[LawDog211]

Just wanted to note: flashlights mounted on guns look cool. BUT when you hold your gun you hold it in front of you and that puts the light right in front of you, and people will generally shoot at the light, so when they do where they going to hit? You.

This also applies to the "fancy new fangled hold the small flash light in weak hand while gripping the gun", this also puts light right in front of you making you more targetable.

I was taught and always will teach to hold you flashlight in your weak hand with your arm extended as far from your body as possible. This makes your body less of the target, and this tech works well if practiced, your weak hand with the flashlight can be used to counter balance your shooting hand with the gun and help make you more steady then just shooting one handed.

[jason10mm]

I have had good resultes with the Harries technique. Sure the light is in line with my body, but the extra steadiness gives me faster, more accurate shots, then I turn off the light and MOVE. I have a surefire and I challenge anyone to draw and shoot accurately into the blinding beam from one of those lights. I guess it is what you practice, but I can shoot better with less training with the harries technique. The weapon mounted lights are even better, as long as you realize that the muzzle is pointing at anyone the light is pointing at (either a good thing or a bad thing, depending on who it is making noise in your house). I think you can mix up the techniques. I've moved my light around to see better through windows or doors, but if I suspect I'm going to have to shoot, I go into the harries.

[SKN]

If one keeps the light on continuously then keeping the light extended away from the body is the way to go. The downsides are that, depending on the weight and heft of the flashlight and the length of time the light remains extended, it becomes fatiguing, people get lazy, and when called upon to engage most shoot better with two-hands on the weapon.

Contemporary doctrine for use of the flashlight encompasses discipline, in the form of only necessary and momentary activations, along with movement.

If you are concerned with shooting in the dark, I'd be more apt to invest in night sights. Personally, if you are going to case your own home with a flashlight, I think you are better off just turning on a light. If a burglar sees a flashlight beam bouncing through a room, he will know you are coming anyway.

[Archie]

I hold the flashlight in my weak hand, directly over my head.

If you do it right, it illuminates the sights and gives a great sight picture.

If the evil-doer is ready for the standard "light out to one side" technique, he'll think I'm about 12 feet tall. If it does give away my position, it gives away the badguys much worse. If they are going to shoot at the light, I have a sight picture. They have a vague idea.

[LawDog211]

Turning the light on off moving, cant be good, every time you do this you lose you nightvision, Nightsights are fine for seeing your sights but they do not do squat for seeing your subject. The theory here is: while searching keep the light away from your body, when/if you find a target, depends on what happens next, but basiclly you target subject with weapon and then bring light and weak hane in to support weapon hand, if you have the target in site the target has you in site then using the Harries or simular techniques is going to be wise so you can hold gun better. But when searching and you have no clue where the target is then using the tech of the light away from body makes most since, the target will focus onthe light.

And as far as the challange to shoot into the blinding beam of a surefire........easy just point at the blinding beam.......and spray..thats what the Badguy is going to do. Guarnteed hit

[One]

I disagree. The momentary blinding will effect your adversary greater than it will effect the user. In Harries you are behind the light, only getting the peripheral effects, while subject is getting full on beam. If you momentarily light up the subject, assess the threat, take action: shoot/no-shoot w/ appropriate verbal commands, turn off light, move left or right to position of advantage, depending on opponents weapon and where it is L/R hand. All of this takes place in a few seconds.

We recently used this technique in our update training, and after being on both ends of the light, these tactics are hard to argue with. Being hit with the momentary beam, as the perp, has an instant blinding/disorienting effect. If you are concerned with night vision, close one eye when illuminating to retain night vision.

In this situation use of the sights is marginal at best in most building situations, with the exceptions of large warehouses, stores, etc. but in a house or apartment, sights should be the last of you worries. You are well within contact distance, say approx. 6-13yds, which should be handled by point shooting. At this close of a distance one should develop enough muscle memory to hit center mass, with the pistol brought to Universal Cover Position/High Ready. If searching outdoors or in a large building in dark conditions, I would not consider a long shot, requiring sights, except if necessary. I would use the dark, team tactics, and cover/concealment to advance if possible.


I use this method with great results. Most of my searches are conducted in apts and houses. Occasionally I have an out door search when a subject gets into back yards, but in these instances perimeters are set, and units usually flood the area. As always safety is the guiding factor, if you lose them, there will be another day.

Be Safe
Mike

[VictorLouis]

for silhouetting you as a target for your adversary! Try this with a friend in a darkened room/building. (NO guns needed, just the light.) While your buddy(good-guy) is scanning the building for you(bad-guy), you will have pleanty of opportunity to see him under the dispersion of the light. I am much more fond of the Chapman two-handed method, or the Harries if that's what you prefer.

[C.R.Sam]

I don't like the idea of pointing the firearm at an as yet unidentified target. Too apt to fire at a non target. Happens.

Lawdog211 didn't say but I would have the front of the flashlight well in front of me, less illumination of me.

Light attached to weapon is accident waiting to happen.

Sam

[One]

Sam

As long as your finger is indexed along the frame where it should be until absolutely ready to fire, there should be no discharges. Besides, the scenarios described are adversarial at the least and deserve such consideration. I took an oath to protect and serve, but not to put myself in danger. Guess it all falls back to training and what you feel comfortable with.

Be Safe
Mike

[Hellequin]

Anyway, let’s get real. You have just said it my friends. If the bad guy is afraid, hi or just angry he will just spray his bullets all over the place. He will empty his magazine on everything in, or close to the light. So, where you hold the light (one meter closer or farther) won’t make much of a difference. You will get shot if not under cover. I believe any technique is good enough. The stunning bright of the Surefire M3 Combat with 225 lumens is amazing and can give you the edge you need, but remember it is just a flashlight not a laser lethal weapon. Secure your position, identify target, fire, turn off, move. On and on again. I prefer Harries.

[WYO]

There are a lot of good perspectives here. I tend to use an Ayoob wedge while using a Mag-Lite, although I tend to keep the light more parallel to the gun barrel. I use my index finger for activating the button, which is on the bottom in this arrangement. I find that it indexes well with the gun. I do not like the (non-gun mounted) Surefire/Scorpions for these applications because of the difficulty in activating the switches.

I really do not think of a gun mounted light as that much of a disadvantage for clearing procedures. You usually have so many channelized areas and fatal funnels that you already are a target, and I really don't think the light adds much downside to the dilemma while allowing you the opportunity to see your adversary. But if it bothers you, you can turn if off at those times.

Although I used to be a real minimalist with the use of lights, there are times when turning a light off results in an instantly uncleared area and negates the advantage of having used it initially.

[rnpollard]

I just read a post discussing what technique for using a gun and flashlight combo. This may sound like heresy (sp?) but I consider the flashlight to be as essential as the gun. With the M3 Illuminator attached to my Glock I use my trigger finger to flash it as necessary and should I find myself in a definate shoot situation I will lock the beam on and take cover.

If anyone wants to try and aim at my 125 lumen beam they can have at it. The advantage of the Surefire flashlights and the like is that you will be fighting a blind man.

I have two teenagers. One is a 17 year old bottomless pit. He is always in the kitchen. I would rather catch a round than to accidently shoot a loved one.

By the way I have Mepros on my 17 as well. They make it easy to pick up the gun in the dark. After I use the light though it does take a while to be able to pick up the sight.

For what it is worth...

[Ken J. Good]

Rather than pontificate, I will merely point you to another rant I already posted dealing with this important topic.

http://www.surefire.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000016.html

[ddt4free]

hold your flashlight 3 feet to the side or over your head! Wahhhaaaahhhaaahaaaa!

If you are afraid of getting shot cause you are using a flashlight to illuminate your target, stay in bed and call 911. Or do you prefer to be shot/stabbed/beaten in the dark when he eventually makes it into your bedroom after he is through with the kids rooms?

Or you might try searching your house with a remote control toy 4x4 truck that has a remote IR camera. Or maybe just put your flashlight on a remote control helocopter and have it react to your helmet movements.

First thing I want to know is where the hell is your dog? and why isn't he barking to let you know what's up? Or at least giving you a blood trail to follow. Even a Chihauhau will get the job done, they can hear a rat fart in a thunderstorm.

Self defence is a hell of alot more than just owning a gun!

Yes, I may get shot cause my flashlight is mounted to my HomeD shotgun but One thing is for sure somebody is gonna get shot and I ain't pullin the trigger till I can see what I'm shooting at and what is behind it. I'd hate to waste the old lady. She would be totally pissed if I shot her on accident. -ddt

[Ken J. Good]

Did you get your prescription refilled yet?

[blades67]

When was the last time somebody shot at your flashlight?

[Onslaught]

DDT4FREE LMAO!!!! "4x4 remote controlled truck !!"

As I have commented to LawDog before:

The "flashlight to the side" technique is standard fare in Criminal Justice classes, etc. and has been for YEARS! The bad guys know this sneaky little trick of yours, and know to aim to the left of the light. Of course, as has also been mentioned here, That fire is not going to be aimed, at most it's point and shoot, and you're as likely to get hit with your flashlight awkwardly out to the side as you are if you taped the flashlight to your forehead!

I do feel that the dedicated flashlight on a gun works best for SWAT and Home Defense situations, not for day to day police duty. And as others have pointed out here, there are new and improved techniques for safely using your flashlight. If I'm searching for an armed felon, I ain't using no flashlight to "look around" (bad grammer intentional). Even those SWAT guys normally carry an additional hand-held flashlight for "looking around" you only, no I mean ONLY use the Harries technique or gun mounted flashlight for entry or immediate threat situations where you would be pointing your pistol at a suspect ANYWAY, NEVER to "look around".

But as for me, it doesn't matter, cuz I switched majors...I'm a computer geek, not LEO, and only use my HK USP45 and UTL to protect the family. The light doesn't come on until AFTER I've located the potential intruder, and then it gets shined on him/her only after I'm already aiming at him.

PS - GO KEN!!! I suggest following Ken J. Good's link...

[blades67]

ddt4free,

Are you just guessing that

She would be totally pissed if I shot her on accident.

or has this happened and you just want to avoid this in the future?

[ddt4free]

I think you have mis read my post! I was LOL at the side of body / over the head method. AS for using standard DOJ/LEO endorsed training methods. I'm not impressed.

Lots and Lots of Barny Fifes running the streets out there. 95% of Police training is more designed to be idiot proof and inexpensive rather than the best methods available.-ddt

[John Lawson]

Are you gents aware that Mike Harries has been dead for several months now?
Attaching a flashlight to a handgun, either by clamping or by merely holding it next to the piece violates a basic law of firearms handling: NEVER POINT A GUN AT ANYTHING YOU AREN'T GOING TO SHOOT IMMEDIATELY. If I strolled onto a scene completely innocent and one of lyou pointed a light and a gun at me, I'd send you directly to Valhalla on the backs of the K9 unit. And, yes, I can make that kind of a shot. I've been a Police Firearms Instructor since 1954, was a member of IALEFFI and still teach and hold range sessions.
You point a gun mounted light, you have initiated a gun fight. Period. No excuses accepted. You have broken the law (in this state, at least.) You DESERVE to be shot.
When I first learned to use a light and a pistol, it was in the Army.
We held the Boy Scout lamp off to the left and low or off to the left and as high as we could reach. (Yes, I have seen the videos of cons learning this technique in prison.)
All of you who have practiced weak hand firing can pass the light to the strong hand and the pistol to the weak hand when you emerge from cover to further disorient your opponent.
The moment you become predictable, you are finished.
I personally know a number of people on the other side of the law. If they have no wants or warrants, I cannot refuse them service. I know some who have attended classes given by the best instructors in the country. They have better guns than we can afford. They buy ammo by the case. They practice at every opporltunity. If you make the stupid mistake of underestimating one of them, you are immediate history. If you pointed a gun/flashlight combo at them and they kill you, they will walk and you will make it to the embalmer's table.
One of the new Surefire lights has the effect to temporarily blinding an opponent and not spilling light that will give away your true position. Mike Harries was working with his favorite model at the time of his death, and he was radically changing the tactics that went with it. So, don't revert to ancient history; look forward and devise your own strategy based on the new genre of intense lights.

[ddt4free]

Just curious and I don't doubt your expertise but:

Are you saying that it is a good idea to be behind cover with a flashlight in the left hand and a gun in the right hand and then upon leaving the cover switch the gun to the left hand and the light to the right?

That is how your post reads. Is that your position? If it is, I am very curious as to how one would do this gracefully cause both of your hands are full and you are moving about in the dark!? Sounds awefully awkward/dangerous.

If this is not your contention do you then mean that we should choose to engage violent threats with our guns in the off hand as a primary technique? That sounds awkward/dangerous too. I use my off hand as a back up as do most of us I think. That is why it is called the "OFF" hand.

"You have broken the law (in this state, at least.) You DESERVE to be shot. "
I love your law and order fervor! Just like in the old country! You know the one we fought all those wars against. I'm not on either side of the law cause the criminals want my guns to sell for crack and the police will be kicking in my door when an act of congress makes my guns illegal. I can't support either side. Soon we may see the day when our guns get smuggled in over the border just like drugs. Will the cops on this forum still be our friends or will they shoot us because we have broken the LAW!

rant mode off -ddt

[Scooter2]

Screw the flashlights, why not just get night vision goggles?

[Ken J. Good]

White Light or IR?

They answer IMHO is both. Principles of active illumination in both spectrums are the same.

A couple of examples:

IR/White: Leave on the source on too long or in the same place, expect incoming

IR/White: Once you have an opponent isolated/trapped and the environment is properly evaluated, smash the opponents vision with photons when possible.

Problems with IR only:

1. Cannot get a “feel” for what your background lighting is. You may believe that you are in total stealth mode when if fact you are silhouetted as seen with the naked eye.

2. Night Vision (NV) devices on your head and over your eyes significantly reduce your peripheral vision and make it difficult to move as rapidly when needed. I personally like a monocular over one eye only to reduce the effect of this problem. It also allows my other eye to see in the white light spectrum.

3. Many Night Vision devices are defeated by incoming while light illumination tools.

4. Many devices will also be ‘overwhelmed’ by a good IR illuminator.

5. Target ID with NV is not as good although many high-end devices are significantly improving.

6. Quality NVG’s are expensive.

I was part of JTF-6 on the U.S./Mexican border for quite some time. We used Thermal, IR and White Light and no-light frequently as the situation dictated.

There is a fine balancing act between no emissions, intermittent emission and powering. You the operator have to determine what the art and science of this process is during the dynamic of conflict. Not a cut and dry situation.