John Lott review as u requested

[HK1]

overall it was excellent..the turn out was over 500 hundred people i would guesstimate with a probable 75% pro gun..may be even higher..I seen a total of (3) MMM types at the start congratulate mary leigh blek and that was it....opening speeches lott garnered the vast majority of applause..it went really well and as stated the pro gun community turned out heavily....what i noticed....common sense gun control..heard that at least 20 times from the MMMer....registration..heard that at least 20 times from the MMMer....product safety laws..heard that at least 20 times from the MMMer....ban 50 cal..one time at the end...they crowd laughed at that...lots of why the Kali gun control laws should be instituted nation wide...of course all the standard quotes u here..9 kids a day was expanded to 80 deaths per day...680thousand people did not get guns thanx to brady bill...lott said this is inflated by 50 to 60 times..GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE...stated a bunch of times..lott was miffed it this and said this does not exist....first hour of debate lott took lots of "hits" from mary leigh blek...at about the 8 0'clock hour he started heavily jabbing back...got funny at this point...moderater asked lott what his rebutal of the statements made by the MMMer..lotts reply.."I was not paying attention"...basically..it was the same old stuff we are all famailar with.....nothing new and the MMMer never once quoted any finding except stats exposed by HCI..which lott basically said are unverifiable...couple interesting sidebars...CCW came up a lot...MMMer did not have an opinion...basically i was of the feeling that this issue is dead for them...too much evidence that it works and she avoided it...states with highest gun ownership all border canada..these states..cept NY..have a crime rate that is 40% less then in canada....that is from john lott....canada came up quite often..MMMer are trying to have canadian laws implemented here.ie(REGISTRATION)..of course..gun in the home is 22% more likely to be used against a family member..few years ago this was 44%....this is long but you get the overall picture...MMM is DOA and as we know been rolled into HCI....canned responses were used all night and no attempt was ever made to substantiate any claims made by the MMMer..of course lott destroyed all her statements.....emerson case came up once..MMMer never named it....this case has hurt them bad....you could tell by her body language..lies abounded about 2nd amendment...." a well regulated".."regulated"..meant registration..not well armed as it truly means..MMMer never once discussed second part of the amendment..my fingers are tired..have any ?s..ask em and ill try to respond in kind,,Hk-out

[SkySlash]

I'd have liked to see something like that.

Just one question.

MMMer?

-SS

[HK1]

MMMer..=====million mom marcher..or in this case mary leigh blek

[dZ]

Mary Leigh wandered out of the front of the Hotel where the MMM had the national convention 2 weeks ago

we spotted her and i shouted:

Mary Leigh Blek is a LIAR!
She ran back into the hotel

The MMM effort has mobilized a bunch of 2nd amendment advocates
at this point i will bet theres more new gun advocates then new gun grabbing mommies

Thanks for the report

[HK1]

forgot to add one very important tidbit..Handguns....word used at least 50 times...they want everyone of em banned...my mistake..its late

[Gary L. Griffiths]

I'm going to go ahead and post my take on the debate here, realizing it's duplicated in the other thread. The moderator can slap my hands if (s)he chooses.

Here is a very condensed synopsis of the debate between John Lott and Mary Leigh Bleck held at McKendrie College in Lebanon, IL Wed 28 Nov 01 at 7:00 P.M. I obviously couldn’t catch everything, but took extensive notes. The following is the gist of the various arguments:

The Moderator opened with an interesting remark - “The (firearms) genie is out of the bottle. What are we going to do with them?” This was an interesting parallel to my own thought process, that since guns exist, legislating them away will be no more effective than legislating away drugs or liquor.

The opening statements included the following remarks:

Bleck: My son was killed with a cheap, junk gun. A robber held the gun to his head and it went off. (Like it went off by itself - G) In May 2000, the Million Mom March was the largest march ever held in Washington DC. Gun laws are riddled with loopholes. There are no requirements for registration or training. We lose 9 kids and teens a day to gunfire. Gun manufacturers are not required to put the most basic safety features on guns. Known foreign terrorists have purchased guns at gun shows. If you have a gun in the home, it is 22 times ore likely to be used in a suicide or homicide or accident than to kill or wound an intruder. A Johns Hopkins study has shown that licensing and registration has an effect on gun deaths.

Lott: Admittedly, guns are often used in crimes, but we should look at the net effect - do guns cost or save lives? Guns are used defensively an estimated 2 million times a year. Five public school shootings have been stopped by citizens with guns before the police arrived. A victim who uses a gun in self-defense is 2.5 times less likely to be injured than one who offers no resistance. Fewer than 1 out of 1000 defensive gun uses results in the attacker’s death. People who commit murder are not like ordinary people. Over 80% of murders occur in 3% of the US counties.

Mod: Regarding the 2d Amendment - Many courts have gone against individual rights. Explain militia vs private gun rights.

Lott: I’m not a lawyer, so I’m not really qualified to comment on legal issues. It seems, though, that people tend to interpret the 2d Amendment based on whether they believe guns are good or bad.

Bleck: No gun regulation has ever been overturned based on the 2d Amendment.

Mod: Collective self-defense arguments seemed silly based on our fine Army. Since September 11, that has changed and I for one feel more vulnerable. How does this affect your views?

Bleck: There are domestic as well as foreign terrorists. We need to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and away from terrorists.

Lott: The question of whether pilots should be armed, and whether police should be allowed to carry weapons anywhere are no-brainers. In Israel, 10% of all citizens have concealed weapons permits, and this has stopped many terrorist attacks and prevented others because the terrorists knew they would be up against armed citizens.

Mod: Summarize studies on gun policy effect on crime stats.

Lott: Not 1 study shows waiting periods reduce violent crime. Some studies even tend to associate waiting periods with increases rather than decreases in violence. Licensing theoretically can benefit by allowing traces of crime guns, but in real life that just doesn’t happen, because guns aren’t normally left at the scene of the crime unless the criminal is injured or killed. Studies have shown that the more CCW permits that are issued, the lower the crime rate. 294 academics (presumably criminologists - G) have signed an open letter saying we should reduce rather than increase the number of gun control laws.

Bleck: Previous studies indicated gun carrying may result in a greater number of gun deaths.

Mod: What empirical evidence is there that concealed weapons reduce crime.

Lott: Not 1 study shows increases in violent crime with increases in CCW. No one has found a significant downside to issuing more CW permits. The size of the drop in crime varies with the number of permits.

Bleck: A Johns Hopkins study says licensing and registration does decrease the availability of guns to criminals. A gun in the home increases the chance of homicide 3 times and suicide 5 times.

Mod: In Lott’s book, there is an emphasis on women’s self-defense. Guns are the great equalizer. How do you as a woman react to that?

Bleck: The gun industry has been targeting women to increase sales. Law enforcement officers have their guns used against them frequently. How can we expect women to use them effectively?

Lott: Police are in different situations. They can’t pull a gun and watch the attacker run away. They’re forced into close physical contact with criminals, which vastly increases the criminal’s chance to grab their weapons.

Mod: Some 340,000 guns a year are stolen. How do you react to the premise that if guns weren’t sold, they wouldn’t be stolen by criminals?

Lott: Only 1/10 of 1% of guns are used in crime.

Bleck: Kleck says there is no evidence of increased ability to defend oneself by carrying a gun.

Mod: There are criticisms of gun shows. Why are or are not they fallacious?

Lott: There is no loophole. Private sales are private sales, whether at a gun show or anywhere else.

Mod: There are anecdotal stories of individuals successfully defending themselves with guns, which are very compelling. Why not have a gun for self-defense?

Bleck: Bringing a gun into the home increases risk. There should be safety training.

Lott: Anecdotal evidence has a big effect. Part of the reason it isn’t more effective is asymmetry in news coverage. Criminal homicides are more newsworthy than stories of self-defense, especially when the defense is successful and no one is injured. I once was challenged by a large newspaper to come up with any self-defense uses of a gun in a one-week period. I found over 20. But they were mostly reported in local papers, not by the major media.

Mod: Gun control advocates say they only want training, registration, and licensing. Is this disingenuous? Are they really after more?

Lott: Safe storage laws interfere with self-defense. States which passed safe storage laws saw increases in home-invasions. Registration results in increases in the violent crime rate because it diverts police resources to administrative duties associated with registration.

Bleck: Research shows registrations lowers incidents of criminal use.

Mod: Isn’t it true that concealed weapons create deterrence?

Bleck: I acknowledge that some might be deterred, but others might shoot first, then rob you.

Lott: Deterrence matters. Permit holders are overwhelmingly law-abiding.

Mod: What is the effect of guns in the house? Are they deterrents or a danger to the family?

Lott: Accidental gunshot deaths of children under 10 are only 53. Of children under 15, only 121. Most children accidently killed were killed by adult males with histories of violence or irresponsible behavior.

Mod: Is reasonable gun control merely a pretense? Are you really here to eliminate guns?

Bleck: The MMM doesn’t want to ban guns, we want safe kids and common-sense gun laws.

Lott: I didn’t used to feel this way, but I’ve come to believe there is a systematic attempt to reduce the numbers of guns by restrictive legislation, taxes, and fees. The more guns are reduced, the easier they will be to eliminate.

Mod: What do we need to do to protect our rights while protecting ourselves?

Lott: We can pass rules that save lives without eliminating the protection of guns.

Bleck: Asking people to be responsible and knowledgeable is reasonable.

At this point, after final summing up, Lott reiterated his position that statistics show guns to be of benefit more often than they are used for criminal purposes. Bleck launched a triad against Charlton Heston holding up his hunting rifle and saying they would take it from his cold dead hands. She stated that the MMMs weren’t after his hunting rifle, and that the founding fathers wouldn’t have had any use for a 50 caliber rifle (she’s right: they’d have considered it small bore - G). She then castigated Heston for using the term “cold dead hands” stating that the phrase only reminded her of her son’s cold dead hands, which she held as she said goodbye to him for the last time.

There were about 300 people in attendance. Despite MMM plans to bus in attendees, I would say there were only about 20-30 MMMers. John Lott gave a good performance, but tended to run over a bit to try to get more points across. Mary Leigh Bleck didn’t seem as passionate about her subject as I thought she would be, except right at the end with the bit about her son’s dead hands. She acted like the fire had gone out of her outrage, and she was just going through the motions of making her arguments. I suspect she’s now only doing it for the money.

[BogBabe]

Thanks for the summaries of this debate. I would have liked to have seen it in person, but a recounting by people who did is the next best thing.

[SamAdams]

Bleck: Previous studies indicated gun carrying may result in a greater number of gun deaths.

LOL

Other previous studies indicated:
- You may drown while swimming
- You may get into an MVA while driving
- Drinking may get you drunk

Dear lord.

Hheheheeheh

[Jeeper]

Great post guys!

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Thanks for the report guys!

[Doug444]

Great summaries guys! I have to agree with SamAdams on this one. When I read that statement, my first thought was "well, Duh!!! More people can defend themselves!" I hate that "gun deaths" moniker, because it never distinguishes between murder and self-defense. THAT's one stat I'd really like to see cleaned up, but you'd undoubtedly till have the murder numbers higher...because we don't have enough defensive guns being carried!!

Doug444

[Noban]

I very much appreciate the time you took to provide us with the summaries. Great work!

Noban

[CobraSJP]

Same as others have said:

Thanks for taking the SERIOUS time to type up and post a synopsis of the debate.

SJP

[Drizzt]

Here's a quote I found on another board regarding the post-party analysis:

Unfortunately, only 15
minutes was allowed for audience questions so only three people got to ask
questions (Though they made an exception at the end for a 10-year-old kid,
who stepped up and said "You keep talking about teddy bears and saying that
they have more safety regulations than guns--but teddy bears are made for
babies and guns are made for adults.)

[Don Gwinn]

I'm in awe of Gary--I don't even have detailed enough notes to do that if I wanted to. However, in looking them over, I did find a few more interesting statements from Mrs. Blek:

"John is out of step with the top gun-violence-prevention researchers in the nation."

Funny--I thought Dr. Lott was the top gun-violence-prevention researcher in the nation. She quoted several I haven't heard of and one I have--John Hopkins University.

"I am the head of the fastest growing and most exciting movement in the nation--the Million Mom March."

Sure. You're not at the top until you go broke and are rescued by a parent corporation--which then lays off half its staff.

"I'm not against gun shows."

but . . . .

"But the carnival atmosphere . . . . I just question whether it makes sense. Bringing a gun into your home is risky and dangerous and serious, and I don't know if a carnival atmosphere is a good place to make that decision."

She got a big laugh on that one. Glad you're not against gun shows, lady.

(After Lott made a point about registration and "safety standards" in California making it harder to buy guns.)
"Well, maybe gun sales are down because we're doing such a better job of educating the people about the dangers . . . ."

Of course, Lott pointed out that the drop began sharply on January 1st when the new laws came into effect, but it was hard to hear over the chuckles.


Unfortunately, there was just no way to get questions in. Only three grownups got to ask questions, and I had chosen one from about two dozen with great difficulty. Still, McKendree did a great job and I'm grateful they were willing to put on the event.

[Don Gwinn]

I really wanted to ask each to comment on Illinois gun laws. I had my FOID out ready to show Mrs. Blek and point out that although Illinois enacted her suggestions regarding licensing in the 1970's, we have higher rates of both murder and violent crime than any neighboring state. The lowest neighbor is Indiana, followed by Kentucky, which also happen to be shall-issue states.

I also wanted to ask about Barbara Graham, but I was more interested in asking about the free office space the MMM illegally accepted in San Francisco and what happened to make them go broke to the point that they had to lay off staff and merge with Brady.

She had also made passing reference very early on to gun manufacturers who wanted to make safer products but face threats and boycotts for doing so. I wanted to see if she meant Smith and Wesson; if so, I wanted the chance to set the record straight.

[HK1]

I also wanted to ask about the office space fiasco and barbera graham..but..it was 8:45 before any comments were allowed from the audience and they had at least 15 people in the line on the side I seated...i did not stick around after for the reception..I did notice that people were forking over $12.95 for lotts book....one thing that struck me more then anything else about Lott..he came out about 15 minutes before the event was scheduled to begin and signed autographs and talked to the audience..I half expected mary leigh to do this and she did..but a guy like john?..hell..it impressed me how accessable he was....for the record..none of us had to adhere to any metall detecters or strip searches....i half expected this to happen with all the pro gun owners expected and all the tripe about how much we evil creatures are..hehehe....HK-out

[HK1]

..

[Don Gwinn]

I had him sign my old hard copy.

[blades67]

She forgot about the study that found the leading cause of divorce is marriage.

I participated in the study that found the leading cause of pregnancy is sex.

[Thairlar]

(Though they made an exception at the end for a 10-year-old kid,
who stepped up and said "You keep talking about teddy bears and saying that
they have more safety regulations than guns--but teddy bears are made for
babies and guns are made for adults.)

Smart kid!

Has a transcript been made available online anywhere?