Why the difference in murder rates between Europe and US?

[Metallic Kitty]

It clearly appears that you are not selfish as a person. It is not even a subject for our discussion if you or me are selfish or not. Both of us are searching for a good solution for organizing our societies in a way which gives prosperity to the citizens.

To be honest, I am frightened when I read about murder statistics in the US and the statistics concerning homelessness. Of course, such thing occur more than necessary even in Europe but I don't believe that you have a genetical tendency for murders which is 20 times stronger than it concerns us here in Europe. I know many Americans and I cannot see any difference between you and us. How can in be so that you are 20 times more people killing each other than it happens in Europe. The only explaination that I can find is that there is something wrong with the system applied in your country. Perhaps I am wrong. Please give your comments about it.

[LawDog]

Split off from gargantuan other thread.

Play nice, folks.

Go!

LawDog

[Gary H]

Metallic Kitty:

These Americans that have been murdering people were trying to murder the homeless people, so that they could reduce our percentage of homeless and make you Europeans happy.

[Zak Smith]

Who has a cite for EU homicide rates?

Is there something like our CDC site there?

-z

[David Park]

International Homicide Rates:
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

I like this quote from the bottom of the page:

America is often said to have the highest homicide rate of any "civilized," "Western," "industrialized," or "advanced" nation. Do those who make such claims believe that Mexico is uncivilized, Brazil is not in the Western Hemisphere, Russia is not industrialized, or Ukraine is retarded?. . .Perhaps the more we resemble Colombia with its drug wars, and Eastern Europe with its ethnic strife, the more our homicide rate will rise.

Also, crime factors according to the FBI:
http://www.guncite.com/gcgfbirc.html

[Tamara]

I wonder what the USA's homicide rate would be if we removed all the NHI killings caused by the WO(S)D?

[Gary H]

How is "diversity", illegal immigration and the criminalization of, and America's love for certain drugs, contributing factors to our murder rate?

Metallic Kitty:

I noticed that you only post war, gun questions in the legal forum. You don't seem to have an interest in shooting, purchasing, owning, or caring for guns. I gather that you don't own guns. I'm not trying to chase your away. You are most certainly welcome, but what is your interest in this board?

[John/az2]

If it's "genetics" we can't do anything about it anyway.

[FPrice]

"Both of us are searching for a good solution for organizing our societies in a way which gives prosperity to the citizens."

I would take exception to this statement as I believe it sets up a false premise. We did not establish this country to give prosperity to our citizens. We established this country to give our citizens the opportunity to earn prosperity for themselves.

Government's reason for being is to establish a social and legal entity wherein the citizen is free (within certain generous boundaries) to achieve what they are capable of achieving. The thought that government has any other responsibility to give anything else to the citizen is both wrong-headed and contrary to the idea of freedom. For if the government gives you something, the government in effect is your benefactor and master. And that makes the individual a subject as opposed to a true free man or woman.

[guntalkradio]

Metallic Kitty,
In actuality, Europe has a much higher percentage of murders than the USA. At the current yearly murder rate in the USA, it would take around 400 years for us Americans to murder as many people as the Nazi's killed in 13 years (non-combatants; Jews, Gypsies, ect.) Hence the importance of our 2nd Amendment, you see the far biggest murders in history are the state and the people that disarm the innocent.

[Ought Six]

gtr:

Excellent point!

===============================================

MK:

When neosocialist liberals try to point to the availability of guns as the single main causal factor in the murder rate in America, they must very specifically and dishonestly 'cherrypick' the facts the support their case, while studiously ignoring the facts that debunk it.

The truth is, wherever you have violent gangs, you have a very high murder rate. Gun laws and 'availability of guns' are irrelevant to this truth. In Switzerland and Sweden, where every houseold has a military automatic rifle and ammo on hand, and any kid could steal such a weapon and do a 'drive-by' if they wanted to, yet there is a very low murder rate in these countries. That's because they don't have violent drug gangs there. In Jamaica, which has the same gun control laws as Britain, they have about six times the per capita homicide rate that we have in America. That's because they have the infamous and extremely violent 'drug posses' there. The same is true in Mexico, Peru, and many other countries where the murder rates are very high (despite fraudulent government stats), drug gangs are rampant, and yet guns are heavily restricted by law, pretty much forbidden to regular citizens.

Another part of this myth is that in EU countries with strong gun control laws, criminals can't get guns if they want them. That's total BS. Any cop in any EU country will tell you that on the black market, if you've got cash, you can get whatever you want; handguns, full auto weapons, explosives, whatever. And more and more, European criminals are now turning to guns as tools for their illegal activities. A recent UN crime report has said the Britain is now the violence capital of the West, and that you are far more likely to be mugged in London or Liverpool than in New York City. But that has been ignored by the liberal media, as it doesn't fit with their virulent anti-gun propaganda campaign. The infiltration of the EU by the ultraviolent Russian mafia is one of the main causes, and that has changed the whole EU criminal subculture. This is a very bad trend, as most Russian mobsters are Moslem Chechyns, and their links with al Qaeda are well known.

And as far as the American murder rate, the media has (as always) hyped and exaggered the danger beyond all semblance to the truth. There are around 10,000 murders committed with guns every year. This is in a nation of 275,000,000 people. The vast majority of these murders are gang & drug related, and occur in ghetto neighborhoods. Many of the remaining murders are committed by violent spouses that are known domestic abusers, having been arrested multiple times for domestic abuse. If you simply stay away from gang neighborhoods, drug deals, addicts, and domestic abusers, your chances of being murdered in this country are extremely small, almost statistically insignificant. Being careful on the road in unfamiliar areas is also a good idea, as criminals love to victimize tourists and business travellers. While there's only 10,000 or so murders committed with guns annually in America, there's between 800,000 (FBI stats) and 2,000,000 cases (John Lott's U of Fla. study) where American citizens use firearms to defend themselves, their families and their property annually. Have you ever heard these facts presented on a news broadcast? Think about why this info is being carefully censored and witheld from Americans by the media.

Yet another way to manipulate the statistics is to point to the around 35,000 gun deaths in America every year. This is (intentionally) misleading, as many of these deaths are justified shootings, either self-defense shootings by armed citizens or shootings of suspects by LEOs. Also, they lump in accidental shootings, including hunting accidents, range accidents, and criminals shooting themselves (this happens more frequently than you might imagine). Gun control laws would have no effect whatsoever on these stats (unless you plan on banning all shooting sports, as fascist liberals would love to do). They lump in suicides using guns, too. Japan has among the strictest gun control laws and lowest availability of firearms of any nation on Earth, yet they have twice our per capita suicide rate. That clearly shows that suicide rates aren't affect by the availability of guns. If someone really wants to kill themselves, there are many effective means to accomplish it besides guns.

A favorite way for lying liberals to disort the stats is to take the total number of gun deaths, with all these categories lumped in, and the number of criminals killed by homeowners, and then say you're twenty-some times more likely to be killed by a gun in your home than to be saved by it. Aside from all the irrelevant categories they've packed the stats with, what this really shows is that a criminal violent enough to carry a gun is more likely to commit murder with it, making sure all witnesses are dead; while homeowners are more likely to scare away, hold at gunpoint or wound attackers without putting a few finishing shots in them.

And there's one other thing. In America, unlike the rest of the world, you can choose not to be a victim. You can arm and train yourself to prevent criminals from harming you or your family. It's kind of like a fire extinguisher; you'll probably never need it, but it's a darn good idea to have them around.

So there's the truth, which you will likely NEVER hear from our liberal lying media machine. I hope you feel better now.

[Art Eatman]

Somewhere about six or so years back, I ran across some short articles in "National Review" (Buckley's mag) by various black writers speaking to the various aspects of that subset of citizenry.

One of the articles addressed homicide rates as compared between the U.S. and Europe. In general, the homicide rate per 100,000 people in several European countries averaged about 6. A low of just above 5, to a high around 7. For the United States, 22.6.

The writer, then using data from our Center for Disease Control, subtracted the rate per 100,000 for blacks. This lowered the U.S. homicide rate for whites, latins and asians to a little over 6. If you don't believe me, you can verify this by researching the CDC website. I have, and the data is there.

Based upon my reading of various newspapers around the U.S. during my 40,000 miles per year of cross-country travel between 1989 and 1999, plus watching TV and from living on the Mexican border in Texas, I am of the opinion that if the "wetback murders" were taken out, our homicide rate would then be lower than any European country.

This is not racism; it is a function of sub-culture problems, the sociology of the ghetto. The value-system of a relative few skews the numbers for the entire nation. A small percentage of all blacks or of all latins is responsible for an unduly large percentage of violence. It's a (bleep) shame.

And I don't have a politically viable answer.

Art

[TallPine]

Well now, wouldn't it be nice to live in a country with ultra strict gun control laws, like Russia for instance, where you can go to a theater without any worry about anyone there being armed and dangerous ???????

It would certainly be a lot safer than America, especially if you are a terrorist intent on taking the whole audience hostage.

Yeah, over here in gun crazy America, one or more of the audience just might have fought back. Now isn't that a scary thought?

Anyway, if you don't like the way we do things here, I guess you are welcome to stay home, wherever that is.

[Bog]

Tamara is one of the most selfish people I have ever met.

She has no time for anyone but those with whom she can share a meme.

No wonder I like her.

Because with people in her world, she is the epitomisation of generosity and kindliness. As long as you don't say "You OWE me this!" she'll give you everything that's in her power to give, and 100% more. Because it's her choice.

Tell her she HAS to give you something... and you're screwed.

Give her the choice and you'll never, ever have a better living friend.

You're telling her she "Has To", MK. Must be pretty cold out there.

[UltimaThule]

Guns aint it. The availability of firearms in Norway is comparable to the US, 32 per cent of households as compared to 39 per cent according to the link above. (Unlike Switzerland, our numbers do not include military weapons in private homes.) The number of homicides in the US is nearly six times higher in that same table.

This table also says something else. Two thirds of all homicides in the US are committed with firearms, while in Norway that number is only one third. That probably means something, I'm just not sure what.

Art, sub-culture problems is a part of the explanation. But do not forget that this is a problem in Europe too. Maybe the problem is smaller, I don't know, but it certainly exists. Different sub-cultures from what you have, but essentially the same type of problem. Some groups of people account for an unproportionatly large number of crimes, including murder.

[Marko Kloos]

America also has a higher rate of non-gun homicides than the European countries mentioned. It follows that the difference in murder rates has its reasons outside of the availability of guns.

Also, there are differences due to the different methods of determining homicide numbers. Some countries, like the UK, tend to "massage" their homicide numbers, tracking each case through the court system and re-classifying it when it gets judged accidental, self-defense, suicide, or otherwise. The US system counts every death initially classified as "homicide", and that includes all the categories mentioned above. Undoubtedly, the reason for the "massaging" of the UK numbers are political in nature, i.e. projection of a lower crime rate.

[leuthen]

I've lived in the US for 30+ plus years. Felt a lot safer here than in some places I went through in Europe. So while you may be frightend of US alleged high homicide rates, I am truely terrified of your high EU tax rates.

Europe has certainly been a haven for terrorist activity. The RAF in the '70, West Germany and Italy. The IRA in N. Ireland and England, The Basuqe seperatist group, the group in Greece that seems to target Americans just to name a few. We have some eco-terrorists here and Arab terrorists seem to appear now too.

Then there was the policial assasination in Holland. The wild west here has been able to avoid that for a while lately. Also, there was some high profile kidnapping in Germany recently too.

I'd be more curious to the crime rate differences between here and there. Perhaps a higher homocide rate in the US leads to a lower overall crime rate when compared to Europe. Prison population comparisons would be interesting too.

Socialism and a kinder & gentler society will not end crime. Even the reduction in crime by socialims is questionable. In fact, one can argue the crime rates in '30s Germany were very low. I heard the KZ was a great rehabilitation tool based upon some stories passed on to me. I also supect the crime rate in Soviet Union was low. We know the crime rate in Arab countries is low since Islamic law is quite brutal. Repeat offenders are a rare breed.

Lastly, the US has been waging a war on poverty since 1964 - billions of dollars. Last I hear that poverty is still in the lead. There have also been quite a few rounds of debt forgiveness by the US to some 3rd world countries and those countries are still poor.

Why can't goverments just print more money? That should end poverty, right????

Have a nice day.

[Art Eatman]

I just now fought my way through the CDC mortality tables for the year 2000. That, folks, ain't easy! It's 105 pages, and the download is forever.

Anyhow, deaths by assault (homicides) totalled 16, 764 for all races. Whites and latins were 8,338; blacks, 7,867; and AmerInd + Asian were 559.

This works out to a homicide rate of 6 per 100K. Apparently my earlier cite unknowingly included suicides, which in the past have often been lumped in by those wishing to exaggerate our hazardous country.

I note that 6 per 100K puts us right in there with numbers I've seen reported for western European countries...

, Art

[Gary H]

Blacks make up only twelve percent of the population, but account for 46.9% of homicides. Well, that seems to be the problem. It is interesting to see that so many black people are shocked at the snipers' ethnicity.

Regarding suicides, it is widely recognized that the American family structure has fallen prey to changing values, divorce and less parental involvement in their child's upbringing. That may be an area where the Europeans are doing a better job. Of course, that would be a country by country issue.

[C.R.Sam]

Art...
Thanks for digging that up.
I was pretty sure we were near parity but didn't have the cites.

Sam

[agricola]

THE UK DOES NOT "MASSAGE" ITS CRIME NUMBERS. THIS WAS A PRACTICE THAT ENDED A LONG TIME AGO. TWO PEOPLE MURDERED IN ONE INCIDENT IS TWO MURDERS, AND LENDRINGSER THE UK CRIME STATISTICS INCLUDE ALL DEATHS INITIALLY RECORDED AS HOMICIDE AS WELL AS THE "END STATUS" OF THE KILLING.

Sorry for the shouting, but people arent listening. One should also note that, in the case of the UK, we also have some of the toughest offensive-weapon legislation in the world, which may have a bearing on people carrying "informally", so to speak.

[Jato]

Why the difference? Humans are violent. Law enforcement by the government is not very effective. We can't protect, only solve a small percentage of crimes. Protect yourself or become a victim.

Mettalic Kitty how do you protect yourself? Are your prepared to injure or kill a criminal to protect yourself from great bodily injury or death?

or

Do you expect someone else (your government perhaps) to do it for you?


Maybe you feel your life is not worth protecting?!?

Is the criminal’s life is more important than your own (I hope not)?!?

To be honest, I am frightened when I read about murder statistics in the US and the statistics concerning homelessness.

Don't worry about us. We will be fine! Some here will roll over and surrender their property, body or life to the criminals....others will fight back! I'm sure it's the same way in Europe. We just have access to better self defense tools.

"Barking of machinegun fire, does nothing to me now
sounding of the clock that ticks, get used to it somehow
More a man, more stripes you bare, glory seeker trends
bodies fill the fields I see
the slaughter never ends"

[Metallic Kitty]

Dear Gary H,
I understand the irony in your reply In the case of murders, statistics in the US is more negative than in Europe. Of course, there are many negative things in Europe and there are many things that are even more negative than in the US. Lets try to analyze it objectively and seriously.

[Metallic Kitty]

Hi again Gary H,
I am afraid that I'll once again say something which is not exactly in your taste. Namely, I see interconnections between "freedom to bear guns" and the frequence of "negative use of guns". I even see a connection between peoples opinions about freedom to bear guns and their attitudes towards solidarity based welfare systems. I think that it is contraproductive to exchange ideas only with people who, in general, think in the same way as me. That's why I have initiated the discussion with people who usually don't think in the same way as me. Such is people is easy to find among gunners of different kinds
It was a positive exprience for me to notice that people from this forum are open minded and are engaged in social welfare problems and not only guns.

[Metallic Kitty]

Your correction of my expression is okay. I agree even with your points of view related to the rule of the government and the goal of ensuring the freedom to citizens. Of course, we are choosing our governments by democratic elections and we give the mandate to take care of our freedom. Another thing is that the definitions of freedom are different in Europe and the US