The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 23, 2002, 12:08 AM   #1
[email protected]
Wise Guy
 
Join Date: October 10, 1998
Posts: 665
Ooops: San Antonio SWAT hits the wrong house

http://news.mysanantonio.com/story.c...180&xlc=873972

Quote:
SAPD to probe storming of wrong house By Jesse Bogan and Elaine Aradillas Express-News Staff Writers Web Posted : 11/22/2002 12:00 AM San Antonio police, who continued to apologize Thursday for storming the wrong Southwest Side duplex, said they'll meet next week to review the foul-up that sent an innocent man to a hospital with minor injuries.

image
A police raid Wednesday night left a charred wall in the home of Marcos and Salvador Huerta. The raid was on the wrong house.
Kin Man Hui/Express-News
image
Cousins Salvador Huerta (left) and Marcos Huerta said they were injured when police stormed into their house Wednesday night by mistake. The two were recovering Thursday at home.


Officials said SWAT team members apparently were confused in the darkness Wednesday night by the cluster of look-alike dwellings in the 5900 block of Fairshire Road, even though officers spent two days watching a duplex there in an effort to serve a warrant on a man they suspected of dealing drugs.

"Everything was done by procedure," Deputy Police Chief Rudy Gonzales said of the SWAT unit that won state honors the past two years. "It was just an honest mistake made by SWAT officers at the location."

He said that if any recommendations resulted from his review, they would be forwarded to Chief Albert Ortiz.

The officers who mistakenly crashed through a rear sliding glass door will remain on duty while the incident is reviewed, he said.

Ortiz couldn't be reached for comment.

Mayor Ed Garza said Thursday that he hadn't spoken with Ortiz about the mix-up, but that he had asked for a full report.

"I am not ready to make any comments until I've seen the official report," he said.

It began about 8 p.m. Wednesday when a team of SWAT officers stormed through a glass door at a home on Fairshire Road without warning, said the three cousins who live there.

The cousins said officers shot out the door with soft bullets and threw in a concussion grenade that left a hole and a black scar on the wall.

The men, who work at a Mexican restaurant, said they were watching television when the officers stomped in, flinging punches, kicks and profanities. The cousins said they thought they were being robbed.

Marcos Huerta, 19, was taken to a hospital where doctors stitched a wound above a puffy eye. Salvador Huerta, 20, was left with a chipped front tooth and a bruised face. Both said they fell to the floor without resistance and covered their heads as officers hit them at least 20 times.

The third cousin, Vicente Huerta, 17, fled out the front door and was not harmed. An uncle, Jose Luis Alvarez, 40, said his nephews planned to contact an attorney.

"I think they should have investigated before they came in," he said in Spanish. "With pleasure, people are welcome to the house. Just knock on the door."

Not until after the Huerta cousins were handcuffed and sat down on the sofa did police realize that they had goofed.

Gonzales said the confusion occurred because in the dark alley, the duplexes all looked the same. He said SWAT officers were told to enter from the alley and to look for a red car in the rear driveway.

"The SWAT officer saw the red car and thought that was the residence where the warrant was to be served," Gonzales said.

Later, after the scuffle, Officer Darron Lyn Phillips and other officers went to the correct address two doors down, knocked on the door and arrested the suspect without incident.

When asked why officers hadn't knocked in the first place, Gonzales said police thought the suspect inside the house might have a gun tucked inside his waistband.

He said the element of surprise dissipated after people heard the commotion and began filling the street.

Police arrested Richard Anguiano, 21, of the 200 block of Refugio. He was charged with possession of cocaine with intent to deliver and possession of marijuana. He was being held in Bexar County Jail in lieu of posting $52,000 bond.

Inside the second duplex on Fairshire Road, police said they found 86 grams of marijuana, 40 grams of cocaine, drug paraphernalia, and several rounds of ammunition.

No weapons were found.

Will Harrell, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas, said mistakes like this one are not uncommon. He said they are generally the result of an increased militarization by police.

"For the past decade or more, we've seen a shift from the notion of community-oriented police models to a militarized model, where the police operate with a siege mentality," he said.
__________________
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
Owner, BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com
spark@onestopknifeshop.com is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 12:18 AM   #2
Azrael256
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2001
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 547
Ok, now I understand that people make mistakes. I had an officer knock on my door looking for a hot check writer, and when he discovered that he had transposed two numbers, he apologized and left. What I would like to know is just *exactly* what these guys did that warranted force sufficient to require medical attention.
Azrael256 is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 12:24 AM   #3
DadOfThree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2001
Location: Upland, indiana
Posts: 409
I am usually pretty pro LEO but this disturbs me a lot. I used to live in San Antonio and they had a shoot first ask questions later attitude (20 years ago). It was bad enough that it was part of our in processing into a military base there. You were told that if you were pulled over at night to stop, turn on interior lights and roll the window down and put both hands in the air, then wait for police to come to car. This would increase your chances of not being filled with holes. Aside from this being the wrong house, why do the some police feel it is within their authority to beat up the suspects? Even if they got the right house, this would still be wrong. I suspect occurances like these will only become more common until the people can't stand it any more.
__________________
Christian, American, Heterosexual, Pro-gun Conservative. Any Questions?
James Madison: The Constitution preserves "the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.
Mark Douglass
DadOfThree is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 12:26 AM   #4
pax
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
Quote:
Later, after the scuffle, Officer Darron Lyn Phillips and other officers went to the correct address two doors down, knocked on the door and arrested the suspect without incident.
I guess the no-knock warrant wasn't all that necessary after all.
Quote:
When asked why officers hadn't knocked in the first place, Gonzales said police thought the suspect inside the house might have a gun tucked inside his waistband.
Just like any law-abiding citizen in a free country could?

pax

A policeman's job is only easy in a police state. -- Orson Welles

The police are not here to create disorder. They're here to preserve disorder. -- Chicago Mayor Daley during the infamous 1968 convention

Edited to add: I'm not anti-LEO, and I do understand that newspaper reports are pretty darn unreliable at best. However, if the quotes are even 80% accurate, it's still a pretty sad reflection on the state of freedom in this country ... isn't it?
pax is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 01:05 AM   #5
Coronach
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 25, 1999
Posts: 3,147
Well, I'm generally pro-law-enforcement as well (), but when mistakes get made (uhm...oops) you gotta fess up to them and do what you can to make things right. This was a pretty big oops.

As to exactly what transpired once the (wrong) door was kicked, who can say, who as not there? I'm certainly not going to accuse the occupants, already wrongly terrorized, of lying...but I can't see them being kicked for no reason either. And the immediate retort of self-defense to a perceived home invasion...yes, thats why it pretty much sucks all the way around when you kick the wrong door.

A guess? The target of the warrant was a native-english speaker, and when they busted in like Elliot Ness on the hispanics, they shouted commands in english...which were not immediately complied with...which led to hands on (as they "knew" their target spoke the same language as they did), which led to resistance...which...well, thats why you have to be pretty sure which door your kick in, guys.

Quote:
Will Harrell, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas, said mistakes like this one are not uncommon. He said they are generally the result of an increased militarization by police.
I'd like to see stats to back that up. When mistakes like this are made, they certainly are newsworthy. Lets not confuse this with actual statistics.

Quote:
"For the past decade or more, we've seen a shift from the notion of community-oriented police models to a militarized model, where the police operate with a siege mentality," he said.
Uhm...well, just the other night a local team served a warrant (civil libertarians, be still...it was not a no-knock) and the perp started shooting through the door when they knocked. There are reasons for no-knocks sometimes...dunno if this was one of them, though.

Mike
__________________
The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk."
"And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog

"True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
Coronach is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 01:26 AM   #6
Sodbuster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 1999
Location: Wyo-Tana
Posts: 1,298
A frequent occurence, no?
__________________
Remember, many times what we view as a curse in the present turns out to be a blessing in the future. Don't worry about it a lot. Things have a way of working out. Trust me on this one. - - Uncle Bill Martino
Sodbuster is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 01:27 AM   #7
Col. Mustard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2002
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 183
Here's a place to begin

Quote:
I'd like to see stats to back that up. When mistakes like this are made, they certainly are newsworthy. Lets not confuse this with actual statistics.
A little short, perhaps, on actual statistics, but a good background on the mindset:

Warrior Cops
The Ominous Growth of Paramilitarism in American Police Departments

by Diane Cecilia Weber


http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-050es.html
__________________
Nature abhors a moron. - H. L. Mencken
Col. Mustard is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 04:17 AM   #8
DadOfThree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2001
Location: Upland, indiana
Posts: 409
Sodbuster,
Quote:
A frequent occurence, no?
I would say no. More are reported nationwide now.
Coronach,
I agree that we are only hearing one side. I tended to believe the guys that got beat up on past (not personal ) experience albeit 20 year old info.
__________________
Christian, American, Heterosexual, Pro-gun Conservative. Any Questions?
James Madison: The Constitution preserves "the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.
Mark Douglass
DadOfThree is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 05:40 AM   #9
Sergeant Bob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2001
Location: Coldwater, MI
Posts: 123
If this is indeed true,
Quote:
It began about 8 p.m. Wednesday when a team of SWAT officers stormed through a glass door at a home on Fairshire Road without warning, said the three cousins who live there.
Quote:
The cousins said officers shot out the door with soft bullets and threw in a concussion grenade that left a hole and a black scar on the wall.
I'd say it pretty much eliminates any culpability on the part of the residents. Those cops should be in jail
__________________
NRA
MSgt, USAF Retired

Hey, Tic-Tac, ever notice how the snappy dialogue dries up, once a guy starts soiling his union suit?
Sergeant Bob is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 07:14 AM   #10
KSFreeman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2001
Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America
Posts: 5,418
I foresee the sky over Saint Tony's turning legal-pad yellow very soon.

Knocked on the door and arrested him??? Why all the mall ninja rubbish to begin with? (I know, I know, it looks cool and use it or lose it--style over substance).
__________________
"Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).
KSFreeman is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 07:42 AM   #11
Dennis
Staff Emeritus
 
Join Date: November 23, 1998
Location: a small forest in Texas
Posts: 7,079
Scene: a Soviet POW camp
Actors: Rus=Russian guard; Ger=German prisoner

Late 1945 (the war is over):
Ger: (in German) When are we going home?
Rus: (in Russian) Work, then you get bread, soon you will go home.

Years pass. The German slowly learns Russian. The German keeps asking the same question and the Russian keeps giving the same answer. Finally, in frustration, the German presses the issue (in Russian).

Ger: You keep saying we will go home "soon." What does "soon" mean?
The Russian pauses thoughtfully and finally points to a small twig-like tree no more than three feet tall.
Rus: See that twig? "Soon" it will be a mighty oak!
- - - - -

This story is true, related to me in Berlin by the German WWII prisoner who was released from the Soviet camp in 1961 or 1962. (I can't remember which year.)
- - - - -

My point is this:
1) How soon is "soon"?
2) How "frequent" are such "honest errors" by SWAT acceptable?
- If this happens in a bad neighborhood, far from your home and loved ones, you may consider a "frequent occurrence" a cost of good, safe police work.
- If this happens in your home and it is your loved ones being beaten and humiliated, once may be just a bit too often!
Dennis is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 10:06 AM   #12
cpileri
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2001
Location: Peoples Republik of Maryland, Sister State to Kalifornia
Posts: 619
Proper procedure, my @&&

If a surgeon follows all proper procedure, paperwork, and regulation- except that TINY part about PROPERLY IDENTIFYING THE PATIENT, and injures that person; that surgeon is in deep, deep (you know what)!

There will rightly be a huge lawsuit and settlement that is NOT in the surgeon's favor.

But law enforcement make the same mistake, causing similarly physical injuries and possibly death (yes, the exact same consequences as a medical mistake) and its all fine and dandy.

Not even a sarcastic "Gee we're sorry. Won't do it again. Sorry we don't have the budget to pay your medical expenses either- just bought a bunch of flash grenades... er ... I mean new uniforms."

One standard for all: if you are entrusted with such great and grave responsibility; you are subject to severe repercussions for failing to properly execute any action.

I have heard enough about "we followed proper procedure" as being an acceptable excuse!
__________________
___________________________
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants;
it is the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt (1783)
cpileri is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 11:21 AM   #13
geegee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2000
Location: North Texas
Posts: 323
Quote:
Officials said SWAT team members apparently were confused in the darkness Wednesday night by the cluster of look-alike dwellings
Quote:
Gonzales said the confusion occurred because in the dark alley, the duplexes all looked the same.
This really makes me wonder, is it only guys like me who post on these boards and read gun magazines, that has ever actually had an interest in owning a Surefire or Streamlight flashlight? It seems like in the past year you can't get away from all the adds for the 150 different varieties of tactical-blinding-combat-LED sear your eyeballs-kind of light that these things generate. I really think the hottest commodities on the trading boards right now are these flashlights, but these guys couldn't find the right house in the dark upon which to stage their raid?!


There must be a special "SWAT Raid Model" of flashlight that someone forgot to bring along to help identify the house. Yeah, I'm sure that's it. Don't suppose it could have anything to do with operator error, do you? geegee
geegee is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 11:26 AM   #14
para.2
Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2002
Location: Southwest USA
Posts: 91
What worries me about this type of thing, is that the residents would have been perfectly within their rights to resist this ILLEGAL intrusion of armed men into their home with lethal force. A few cops get shot, they respond "defending themselves", kill everybody in the house, or at least the "resisters", and then get off because they were, after all, "just following orders". That hasn't been an acceptable excuse since at least the Nuremberg trials, but we continue to see it offered, and accepted to absolve legal liability.
And for anyone who questions whether this intrusion was legal or not, remember the warrant was not for this house, or these residents, this was a HOME INVASION.
para.2 is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 11:36 AM   #15
C.R.Sam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1999
Location: Dewey, AZ
Posts: 12,858
Quote:
The third cousin, Vicente Huerta, 17, fled out the front door and was not harmed
He is lucky he didn't get shot.

If it went down as reported, this could have easily turned into a total bloodbath.

I have a problem with heavy civil suits in these cases. Ends up being the taxpayors who get to pay and not the perpetrators.

Sam
C.R.Sam is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 11:44 AM   #16
Coronach
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 25, 1999
Posts: 3,147
Quote:
There will rightly be a huge lawsuit and settlement that is NOT in the surgeon's favor.

But law enforcement make the same mistake, causing similarly physical injuries and possibly death (yes, the exact same consequences as a medical mistake) and its all fine and dandy.
I'm curious where you get that idea, Cperleri (sp). My immediate impression is that the jurisdiction in question is going to be giving them a pretty large hunk of cash.

Sam certainly has a point...but if you were the person wronged, who would you want to be sending you money? The jurisdiction with the deep pockets or the officer who makes $40,000 a year (read: blood from a turnip)?

Mike
__________________
The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk."
"And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog

"True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
Coronach is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 12:22 PM   #17
Keith Rogan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 1999
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 1,014
>>>>>Sam certainly has a point...but if you were the person wronged, who would you want to be sending you money? The jurisdiction with the deep pockets or the officer who makes $40,000 a year (read: blood from a turnip)?<<<<<

Oh, I don't know... But there were several cops that went through that door and began beating the residents. There were several people up the chain of command that gave the poor briefing to those cops. There is an entire police force that allows such people to operate despite the (obvious) poor training and execution of such dangerous practices. There is a city who hired these people and are ultimately responsible. I say go for blood from all of them. Take every dime you can get from every person directly involved and then as much more as you can get from the city.
With all the stupid lawsuits we see every day (McDonalds made me fat!) I'd say a having a masked band of idiots kick down your door, point guns at you and beat you is a pretty good suit. I hope EVERYBODY pays, and especially the "poor cops" who went into this home and beat these people. I'd love to see a lien on everything these guys make for many, many years.
__________________
Keith
Keith Rogan is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 12:32 PM   #18
gk1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2002
Posts: 108
A few years ago in Denver, the police no-knock-raided the wrong house, the Spanish-speaking resident saw a black-clad JBT in his bedroom, and he grabbed for his gun. He was killed, and then the police realized that they were in the wrong house, and the 40-60 (can't remember) year old man that they killed wasn't the gangbanger they were after. After an apology, they were on their way. Earlier this year, the estate was awarded $400,000, I think, for the error.

That hardly seems like "a large chunk of cash" compared to the life of you, your father, or your grandfather. Something needs to change so that we don't all have to worry about this particular exception to "castle doctrine". The consequences are too high for the state to be able to make 'mistakes' of this kind.

George
gk1 is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 12:39 PM   #19
Ladybug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2002
Posts: 117
I lived in Denver at the time that "oops! wrong house" raid killed a man, and it really freaked me out. First of all, there were some recent changes in the law there that allowed raids based SOLELY on a tip from someone. Which means anyone could set me up to be killed just by calling the cops and telling them that I have 5 tons of crack under my bed. When they come a-not-knockin' I sure as heck am gonna be holding my gun, in which case I'll be dead.
__________________
...That which does not kill me will be the basis for my revenge...
Ladybug is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 12:41 PM   #20
RKCheung
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 170
What kind of actions is the PD going going to take to try and remedy the situation? Minimum, I think they should pay for medical expenses, replace the glass door and repair the damage from the concussion grenade. Does anyone know if they are doing this? If they are sincere enough, they may just avoid a lawsuit.
RKCheung is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 12:58 PM   #21
archeryfanatic
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2002
Location: California
Posts: 108
Quote:
Gonzales said the confusion occurred because in the dark alley, the duplexes all looked the same. He said SWAT officers were told to enter from the alley and to look for a red car in the rear driveway.
Quote:
"The SWAT officer saw the red car and thought that was the residence where the warrant was to be served," Gonzales said.
With instructions like these, it's not surprising something like this happened. How much commone sense does it take to realize that there may other houses in the area with red cars? Are they that uncommon?
Officers should have at least considered that it might not have been the right house and not go in like they did.

If this had happened to me, someone would likely have been shot, very likely me! Scary!
archeryfanatic is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 01:36 PM   #22
KSFreeman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2001
Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America
Posts: 5,418
AF, I think red cars are as common as white vans. Seen any of those lately? Seen any scary behavior by po-po around white vans lately?

The citizenry better bring the heat to Chief Cledus Wiggum down yonder and a jury has got to make the city pay. Send a SQUAT team in for a dope dealing warrant??? WTH, no scout cars free? Has mail service been discontinued in Tejas?

I know let's go into the "drug dealer's secret underground lair" with our cool kung-fu moves. They then dust themselves off walk next door and knock on the eeevil, daaaangerous accused "drug dealer" and arrest him without incident. Geez.
__________________
"Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).
KSFreeman is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 02:10 PM   #23
taco
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 936
What kind of resistance did those residents offer?
If they didn't resist why do they need require medical attention? Is it normal for these SWAT guys to dish out some physical punishment to people they are arresting?
Isn't that illegal?
taco is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 02:35 PM   #24
para.2
Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2002
Location: Southwest USA
Posts: 91
Re: taco

This is exactly my point. The entire entry was an illegal, warrantless, armed home invasion. The article says nothing about resistance offered, but, in the face of such an intrusion, the residents would have been legally justified in using any force, including deadly force to oppose it.
Of course, had they done so, they would currently be filling body bags as another victim of "drug-related violence."
para.2 is offline  
Old November 23, 2002, 03:09 PM   #25
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,840
They'll settle - fast.

For a nice out of court settlement. Hmm, I'd take a wayward SWAT raid anyday too.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.09411 seconds with 7 queries