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Old November 24, 2002, 03:36 AM   #1
Santino
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The right to bear arms...DEFINE ARMS

I'll get right to the point.......an anti friend of mine asked me where I would draw the line in regards to what kind of ARMS civilians should be able to lawfully own.
I'll be honest, the question confused me a bit and made me think.
I would like to ask TFL'ers to look up the definitin of arms and let me know what you think is the limit as to what type of arms should be available to the public.
I'm not trying to be a wise guy or anything but by definition ARMS includes alot of things.
Some ARMS do not belong in the hands of anybody who wishes to own them ..........or do they?
Give me your opinion,and try to be serious.

P.S. I recomend that you look up the definition of ARMS before you post.
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Old November 24, 2002, 03:42 AM   #2
germanguns
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RE: Arms

Arms: Weapons, especially firearms

That's the basic definition I got from many dictionaries. As for what arms citizens should be allowed? Well... I personally believe any and all. *shrug* I may be wrong, but I haven't given much real thought to it as we hardly have the right to bear firearms, let alone any other type of modern-day weapons. Once we are allowed to bear small arms, I'll start thinking about other arms.
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Old November 24, 2002, 05:03 AM   #3
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Quote:
The right to bear arms...DEFINE ARMS
Without whipping out my trusty concealed dictionary, I'd say: an appendage usually attached to the torso at the shoulder.

Seriously, there have been threads about this before.

I'd say that people should be allowed to own any and all firearms, but no explosives whatsoever. Can you imagine the consequences of an ND with a few crates of grenades or mines???

Aircraft, nukes and the like are also a grey area...on one hand, we could use them in defense from a tyrranous govt, on the other hand, there's the whole storage/ND issue.

Where WOULD you keep a nuke? 500lb bombs?

Ideally, sure people should be able to own whatever they want.

Realistically, it would be a total nightmare.

To sum up, people should be allowed to own any and all types of firearms, but no explosives, tanks, etc....
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Old November 24, 2002, 05:04 AM   #4
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The militia provision of the second amendment is clearly a limiting provision of the RKBA clause. A militia has the same weaponry as the typical light infantry soldier. Because the typical weaponry of a light infantry solider has handguns, shotguns, assault rifles, and the like, the right of the people to own such weapons are protected. This is what was shown in US v. Miller, and if Miller's lawyer showed up, he would have been able to prove to the court that Miller's short barrelled shotgun was commonly possessed by US infantry soldiers as a trech gun in WW1.
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Old November 24, 2002, 05:06 AM   #5
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I don't like that question.

Given powers granted to the government in the Constitution, what weapons may be restricted or forbidden?

Since the National Government has a monopoly on foreign policy and negotiation, there's a case for prohibiting nuclear weapons to the people. For instance, if a totalitarian regime were trying keep control of a country, chances are that it wouldn't use nuclear weapons. Those types of regimes use biochem weapons, however, so it's difficult to argue empirically that those are only really useful for foreign policy/war/deterrence. Since people with destroyers or missile frigates parked in the Mississippi might have a chilling effect on interstate commerce between neighboring States, that could be legitimately regulated, at least enough to prevent those inter-state relations problems.

The out of sight, out of mind policy that the government uses - make bad things illegal and nobody will worry about them anymore - and the fact that it's actually successful in placating the populace, that's the problem.

In modern parlance, just about every type of weapon fits into some category of "arms," e.g. "nuclear arms," "biochemical arms," "small arms," and "large arms." In 18th century language, from what I understand, cannons and other non-man-portable weapons were "guns," leaving only firearms and other personal weapons in the "arms" category.

(edit)
(LonW) A militia has the same weaponry as the typical light infantry soldier.
Huh? Because a militia has weapons x, y, and z, weapons x, y, and z are protected for use by the militia? That seems a bit circular to me.
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Old November 24, 2002, 07:55 AM   #6
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Arms..

Anything not defined as ordinance.

I believe ordinance would be high explosives, but I could be wrong. If I am wrong thenmy definition will change accordingly.

c):{
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Old November 24, 2002, 08:02 AM   #7
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Drjones,

Quote:
I'd say that people should be allowed to own any and all firearms, but no explosives whatsoever. Can you imagine the consequences of an ND with a few crates of grenades or mines???
I don't know, you tell me: would it be "better" or "worse" than an "ND" with a case of ditching dynamite or a whole bunch of ANFO?

What about this big gas tank next to my house, should I be allowed to own it? It could blow up real big, too.

Quote:
To sum up, people should be allowed to own any and all types of firearms, but no explosives, tanks, etc....
You do realize that explosives and tanks are perfectly legal, right? (Well, I dunno about you guys living under the Caliban; it's a wonder they still let y'all own supersoakers... )

"Any and all types of firearm?" Does this mean you'd be cool with somebody owning the 16" naval rifles off of BB63, but not a measly hand grenade? What about muzzleloaders? How much black powder should Civil War reenactors be allowed to keep on hand? Do you know what the consequences of an "ND" with that stuff would be?
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Old November 24, 2002, 08:08 AM   #8
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One point to keep in mind is that our system of government was intended to be a governement of the people, by the people, and for the people. It was never intended to be a we vs. they situation. Put another way, the government is not supposed to have any power that every single other person in this country does not also have; since the government is the people. We arn't supposed to have class sytem here where rights are granted to one group of people and denied to another.

With this concept in mind, your question makes no sense.
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Old November 24, 2002, 09:10 AM   #9
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I was asked this by a guy at work who is a fellow gun owner and hunter right after the 94 ban. His view at the time was that hunting and target shooting were the only legitimate uses of firearms and a 5 round mag cap was probably excessive. I told him that I thought a citizen should be allowed anything the military has - up to and including nukes. Mostly I was trying to yank his chain and boy did I!

Since then we've had several thoughtful discussions and he agrees that military "style" weapons are the type the 2nd ammendment is referring to but he's still sitting on the fence about NFA weapons. I'll keep working on him but still try to get a rise out of him every now and then

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Old November 24, 2002, 09:21 AM   #10
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Small arms. The same as any soldier carries. No crewed weapons, no WMD.

Antis always say we probably want to carry a nuke, but that is just more foolish, poorly thought out thinking on their part.

Then they always say how the national gaurd is the militia, and never have a rebuttal ready when I tell them the Second Amendment was ratified in 1791 and the National Gaurd was created by an act of Congress in 1917. They don't have any answers, just emotional pleas based on non existant arguments.

One guy I know found out I have an AK-47. He said "Nobody needs an AK-47." I said, "I hope I never need the two I have."

They antis make little sense when it comes to guns. Here's an example of an anti, and foolish views they have when it comes to guns:

Scenario 1:

A person sees a a man beating up another man and says, "That person is dangerous and should be arrested and sent to jail."

Scenario 2:

A person sees a man beating another man with a bat and says, "That person is dangerous and should be locked up."

Scenario 3:

A person sees a man stabbing another man and says, "That person is dangerous and should be held responsible and locked up."

Scenario 4:

This same person sees someone shoot someone and says,"We need to get rid of guns."


That's the so called logic they have.
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Old November 24, 2002, 09:27 AM   #11
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Getting socratic, here...

Quote:
No crewed weapons,
Is a quad .50 a "crewed weapon"? What about one .50? What about the old armoured cars that the guy down the road collects?
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Old November 24, 2002, 09:28 AM   #12
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Considering what militias of 1775-1783 had, I feel the framers of the Constitution considered "arms" to be what an individual soldier in the field would have.
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Old November 24, 2002, 09:31 AM   #13
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LF&Co. MG,

Who did Congress intend to issue "letters of marque and reprisal" to?
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Old November 24, 2002, 09:36 AM   #14
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no crew served weapons?

What is the largest weapon that has ever been issued to or whose operation has been the responsibilty of an individual serviceman?

My guess would be some kind of naval AA piece. I'll take two though I might have problems mounting it to the bed of my Ranger.

Where does this leave all those Civil War artillery reenactors?

Last edited by Keifer; November 24, 2002 at 10:07 AM.
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Old November 24, 2002, 10:20 AM   #15
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I'm a rather big fan of property rights. I don't see any justification for allowing the government to come in and steal (aka "confiscate") or forbid ownership of anything, including weapons. I trust individual citizens a heck of a lot more than governments...if anything, I think we should restrict the weapons that the government is allowed to possess.
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Old November 24, 2002, 10:27 AM   #16
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ARMS.......Any firearm capable of being carried by an individual.

That's what I've always thought it ment.

T/S
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Old November 24, 2002, 10:30 AM   #17
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The current Supreme Court test is weaponcentric: does this weapon have some reasonable relationship to a militree purpose. The Supreme Court, hearing only the government's side, decided that a SBS had no militree application. Our TFL combat veterans could argue otherwise. See, e.g., Burks v. State, 36 S.W.2d 892, 894 (Tenn. 1931) (12.5" barrelled shotgun is a constitutionally protected weapon).

However, this definition is far too narrow. As we know here, every firearm has a militree purpose from the Remington 700 Sarah Brady purchased for her child to a Ruger MkII .22 pistol.

"The pistol known as the repeater is a soldier's weapon" and as such is protected. Andrews v. State, 50 Tenn. (3 Heisk.) 165, 168 (1871). "[G]uns of every kind, swords, bayonets, horeseman's pistols, etc." are protected arms. Hill v. State, 53 Ga. 473, 474 (1874).

The Supreme Court of North Carolina probably has the best handle on it. "But the ordinary private citizen, whose right to carry arms cannot be infringed upon, is not likely to purchase these expensive and most modern devices just named [arty, submarines, airplanes]. To him the rifle, the musket, the shotgun, and the pistol are about the only arms which he could be expected to `bear', and his right to do this is that which is guaranteed by the Constitution." State v. Kerner,107 S.E. 222 (N.C. 1921).
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Old November 24, 2002, 10:44 AM   #18
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what tamara said......

the ability to grant letters of marque presupposes the private ownership of the most copmplex weapons system of the period.
the warship. private ownership of cannon was not unusual.

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Old November 24, 2002, 10:48 AM   #19
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I think Lon's got it right: The "arms" refered to in the 2nd amendment are the sort of small arms issued to infantry.

The other issue, of course, is that there's nothing in the Constitution which gives the federal government the authority to ban ANYTHING. Banning things isn't one of Congress's enumerated powers, and per the 10th amendment, Congress doesn't have any other powers.
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Old November 24, 2002, 10:51 AM   #20
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Brett, that's the magic of the commerce clause--the big hammer of unlimited government!
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Old November 24, 2002, 10:56 AM   #21
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Quote:
The militia provision of the second amendment is clearly a limiting provision of the RKBA clause.
I have to say I disagree, Lon. My .38 snubnose certainly isn't a 'militia weapon', yet I am thoroughly convinced that the 2nd Amendment secures my right to possess it. The writings of the founding fathers contradicts the claim that the militia clause in any way restricts the scope of the RKBA.

The only weapons that I am unsure about, are modern WMD. Which may have been un-imaginable by the framers and pose a unique problem. IMHO, the RKBA is inclusive of all conventional weapons from the .22 derringer all the way to the AH64 and beyond.

Brett's point is also very pertinant. Without the Constitution granting the gov't the power to make this decision (draw the line on the RKBA), they are (in theory) powerless to do anything at all.

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Old November 24, 2002, 12:28 PM   #22
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IMNSHO the only "arms" that should be restricted to us civilians are nukes, chemical and biological weapons. (and the main reason for that is storage issues)

As for Bazookas, Squad Automatic Weapons, SMGs, 16in Naval guns, F16s, A1 Abrams tanks ... whatever. If you can afford it the government should have no right to say you can't own it. Now if you misuse it then the government can come down on you like a ton of bricks (much like they will if you misuse the 2 ton "killing machines" sitting in your garage now).


One of the fundamental arguments we post here against gun control is that Law Abiding Americans can be and should be trusted to keep and bear arms (as is our right) because they are by their very definition Law Abiding.

Why would we assume that if a law abiding citizen can be trusted to walk around with a .45 in his pocket he can't be trusted to have an FN-249 in his safe or a tank in his garage?

Is his (or her) mind suddenly going to be controlled by an inanimate object just because its bigger or is just like one owned by the military?

This is the same anti-logic used to ban "assault weapons" just because they look like their full auto cousins!
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Old November 24, 2002, 12:34 PM   #23
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The only people that would deny the ownership of any weapon are those who are afraid of what they themselves would do with such weapons. They are the criminal, both in their denial and in their fears.

Seeing as it is possible to gain ownership of any weapon on this earth, even through illegal means, it should be allowed to the law-abiding citizen to defend him/herself with such.

When you deny ownership of a weapon - whether it be a knife or a battleship, who are you denying the weapon to? The law abiding, that's who.
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Old November 24, 2002, 12:46 PM   #24
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Crewed weapons are those that require a crew to operate it.

An F16 requires a crew.

A battleship requires a crew.

A missle requires a crew.

So on...


Of course there are exceptions to things, but basically we should be allowed to carry what a soldier can carry.
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Old November 24, 2002, 01:08 PM   #25
OF
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Quote:
we should be allowed to carry what a soldier can carry
allowed to carry. I guess we just see things differently. In my book, I'll allow the gov't control over certain aspects of society. Ownership of weapons is not one of them.

I don't need gov't authorization to own anything. We allow the gov't only those powers that have been so chosen! It is a historically and morally superior way to distribute power. Power resides in the people, and only those powers deemed absolutely necessary are gingerly and with great watchfulness trusted to gov't.
Quote:
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ....The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or the state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People."
-- Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear private arms."
-- Tench Coxe, in "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution." under the pseudonym, "A Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 Col. 1.

"The ultimate authority...resides in the people alone."
-- James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper No. 46.

“The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed and that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press."
-- Thomas Jefferson
I have never seen a comment or reference to a comment from any of the framers that the second amendment draws a line between the weapons of the infantryman and those arms not in common use by the military. Nor have I ever seen any evidence that the framers made any distinction between man-portable and crew-served weapons. There is, however, ample evidence of the intention for all power to reside with the people, in theory and practice.

Early Americans were not barred from owning cannon or even warships. So what of it if an F16 requires a crew? It's a crew made up of 'the people', the same 'people' referred to in the amendment, right? Could not the militia field an aircraft? There is no evidence to support this 'infantry weapon only' theory, and ample evidence to the contrary.

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