HCI defines fully automatic weapons as "Weapons of Mass Destruction"

Byron Quick · March 9, 1999, 07:01 AM

I found this while perusing HCI's Website. I have not exhaustively examined the site as my nausea index is quite low. I found this though:
HCI is now classifying Class III firearms as "Weapons of Mass Destruction". I think they've got some more legislation in line for those of use who like full auto. In light of the regulations already in place, what could be next? Licensing of all Class III owners with renewal clauses. An annual $200 (Or $2000, inflation don't you know) tax? Do they now think they have the strength to go for a total ban?

Jeff Thomas · March 9, 1999, 07:26 AM

Oh boy. Can anyone ... anyone remember a criminal incident in the last 20 years where auto weapons have been used? Perhaps the bank shootout in ... was it North Hollywood? What do our LEO members think? Do they perceive Class III weapons as a realistic problem? I'm sure it happens, but it is extremely rare, no?

As I recall, HCI also referred to so-called 'assault weapons' as the 'weapon of choice' for street criminals. Right. They're so concealable, after all. HCI doesn't trade in facts and reality ... they trade in emotional, marketable phrases designed to obfuscate the issues and lead the foolish.

Incrementalism. HCI and others like them will never stop. It is time for incrementalism in the other direction.

HS · March 9, 1999, 07:40 AM

A Nuclear bomb, I.C.B.M.s, Anthrax - the're Weapons Of Mass Destruction !

HCI - "Handicapped Clinical Imbecilles" !!

Jeeeez.....

------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"

Byron Quick · March 9, 1999, 07:48 AM

Sure, Jeff. There have been plenty of incidents involving automatic weapons. Damn near all the time in Miami. There have been none, repeat none, involving NFA registered weapons since passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934. No private citizen with a NFA registered weapon has EVER used that weapon in a crime. The NFA has not prevented any criminals from using them either. The 1986 ban on future production for private citizens has not stopped one incident. Between 1934 and 1986 approximately 125,000 weapons were registered with F Troop. In the months prior to the 1986 ban 186,000 weapons were registered for a total of approximately 311,000 Class III weapons. It would have taken 71 years at the prior rate of registration for that many automatic weapons to be legally registered. The year 2057!

Conclusion? Either HCI's honchoes are very stupid or their agenda is not what they say it is. You choose.

DC · March 9, 1999, 09:37 AM

"Protect the kids", "Instruments made with only one purpose, to kill and maim", "They kill more children than all illnesses and diseases combined", "assault weapons" and "These are weapons of mass destruction"

HCI is incapable of speaking in anything but sensationalistic, emotion grabbing buzz terms.
There is a quote from Sarah Brady (I'll try to find it) that states, basically, that the goal of HCI is to help make the US a socialist country. HCI isn't interested in safety or decreased violence...if that was the case they would be demanding that Eddie Eagle like programs be taught in public schools and they would be all over every DA prosecuting a gun violence case to get the maximum sentence, they would be demanding and pushing for stiffer sentences and no parole for offenders. Why is it that the only court cases you see them at are civil litigation cases?

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

Jeff Thomas · March 10, 1999, 04:11 AM

Well, Spartacus, I'll stand corrected. The felons must simply be more frugal with ammo out here in little ol' Arizona.

DC, don't you have to love some of that stuff? "Instruments made with only one purpose, to kill and maim" - now there's rocket science for you - it is a gun, isn't it? Wouldn't be very useful if you could only club things with it. This is rather like saying a car is only good for riding around in. And, did they really say "They kill more children than all illnesses and diseases combined"? That seems easily refuted, not to mention incredible. I note also that they include 17 year old drug dealers in such a total as well.

Mort · March 10, 1999, 04:30 AM

Yes, it knocks me out with disbelief sometimes. I remember I was at some scum site or another, and they were pointing out the "dangerous purchasing trend toward more powerful calibers." I was like, "So? Good!" But I don't know anything. At least nothing important, apparently.

Guns are for killing, I'll come out and say it. Some do the job better than others. I reject claims to the contrary as twaddle.

I remember whatsis name, the filmmaker that did "Roger and Me", was interviewing a couple of gun shop guys some years ago. They were looking at like a Calico or something (I don't remember, I was young and didn't have the BUG yet). The thrust of the man's argument was "you can't say legitimately that this is for anything but killing people." The gun shop guys were hemming and hawing. They were all about, "well, you could use it for...(insert lame dodge here)." Even as a boy, I was disgusted. Just come out and say it, I thought, and say why it's okay that guns are for killing. Indeed, in some circumstances killing itself is completely okay. Woo, scary stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised if some new legislation imposing an incredibly high tax on Class III stuff was passed. After all, $200 was totally extreme in the '30's.

Ah, well, I'm just waiting for the Thermidorean Reaction...Then we'll have a president who could care less about foolish groups like HCI.

cornered rat · March 10, 1999, 08:34 AM

My take on"larger calibers" is that the 10-round magazine limit taught people about value of improving marksmanship and, since they can have a "natural" 10-rounder in .45 or .40, why not...a 10-shot 9mm that was meant to be a 17-shot but isn't offends my sensibility.

My suggestion...do what I am doing this week...buy a used .22 rifle or pistol and give it to a responsible youngster (after providing training). For homework, ask for a summary of the origin and history of RKBA...let the kid do research.

------------------
Cornered "but cheery" Rat
http://ddb.com/RKBA

Ray VanderLinden · March 10, 1999, 08:45 AM

The only Class III weapon I know of being used in a crime, was one not legally owned, and two not used against anyone.

Seems a VietNam Vet had shipped himself home a M-60 7.62NATO machinegun. HAd kept the weapon in his gunroom for 19 years with no Problem. Until 1988 when his Brain Dead 18 yearold son just had to show it off for his equally brain dead friends.

The Neighbor also a Vet at first thought he was having a flashback, or a nightmare (it was 0130 hours) then the next burst went off and he was worried about his cattle.

He Called the Sheriff and the weapon was seized. The Father was never charged, the son was charged with the reckless discharge of a weapon (to keep the Father , and maybe a few Deputies, out of trouble.) Seems several of the Deputies knew of the weapon's existance for as much as 15 years. And One Deputy had even fired it several years before, in a much more remote location. The Vet who owned it was not concidered a threat to anyone, and so no action was taken.

This may serve to show the preceived threat of Class III weapons in the hands of otherwise law abiding citizens, to law enforcement.

At any BATF agents reading this page,, Don't ask me where this happened, I WON'T KNOW.

Dennis · March 10, 1999, 09:05 AM

Sen. Feinstein stated quite clearly that if she had the power, she would go house to house and force every American to give up every firearm in the country.

Sarah Brady said the Brady Bill was just a first step.

Sen. Schumer said the world isn't flat and the Second Amendment isn't absolute. Get over it!

Sen. Boxer is about to introduce another anti-gun bill.

Gee, I wonder what their goals are.... duh!!

I was told last night that Massachusetts just passed a law requiring a license to have a firearm in your home. In your home. In your castle!!!!!
Good Lord, can that actually be true?

Byron Quick · March 10, 1999, 09:09 AM

Dennis, the People's Republic of Massachusetts law is worse than that. Check it out. Under the recently enacted law you cannot carry an unloaded musket in a reenactment scenario. A veteran cannot carry an unloaded rifle in a Veteran's Day parade.

Mike in VA · March 10, 1999, 10:09 AM

The primary rationale of our nuclear arsenal (an instrument of mass destruction if every there was one) has been as a deterence to similar and other forms of armed aggression. With two possible exceptions (Hirosima & Nagasaki), the rationale seems to have held up. Seems to me that citizens' guns fit the same profile if you consider the number of times they're used as a deterent vs number of times actually fired (FBI estimates in less than 2% of encounters). HCI is an instrument of mass stupidity. M2

DC · March 10, 1999, 10:33 AM

Mike...
Guess you missed the newsflash that
1) The collective mentality of governments is infinately more intelligent and rational than the separate mentalities of its citizens.
2) The Universal laws of Cause and Effect somehow are reversed when comparing person to person vs government to government
3) Governments always make well-thought out, well planned actions, unlike the average citizen who only acts rashly and capriciously

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

bookkie · March 10, 1999, 10:53 AM

What we are fighting here is perception. For example, the local gun club I belong to has since the 1930's had a program where they would take all the 12-18 year old kids from a local orphanage, run them through the NRA hunter's safety course and then take them out for a few days of pheasant hunting. We would usually end up taking around 50-75 kids out each year. Was a lot of fun to see those kid's faces light up when they got their first bird. This year we were informed that the orphanage would no longer participate, "as guns are evil and we are encouraging the kids to join gangs and use the guns to kill people". Don't have to tell you that they just got a new director.

By the way for those of you in the know, the NRA hunter's safety course did not start in the 30's. It was sometime later, but I'm proud to say that our instructor was one of the first three certified NRA instructors in the nation. He is still going strong teaching the course in his mid 70's.

The gist of this little story is that we are fighting a propaganda war. And we are losing badly. It is getting harder each year to come up with our 10-20 kids for the junior shooters program. We must change our attitude and fight back. We can no longer afford to make excuses for why we have a weapon or why we need this. What we have to do is change our tack. Something like "And you don't own a gun? What's the matter with you? Are you a coward? A communist? Why are you jerking your duty to be armed for the defense of all?" We must change the perception that people have of guns. We must show them that we are proud to be gun owners and that it is a good thing, not an evil.

Thanks,

Richard

Jeff OTMG · March 11, 1999, 02:12 AM

Spartacus - There are uses of illegally posessed full auto weapons but there has also been two occurrences of legally possessed Class III weapons since 1934 that I am aware of. The first was in the 1970's, a suicide in Tenn., the second was a LEO in Detroit using a department owned in a mob hit.

Byron Quick · March 11, 1999, 06:01 PM

Suicide may technically be a crime but I don't know of anyone being successfully prosecuted for committing it

(Sorry, couldn't resist for this has to be the all time winner for most stupid law)

Notice also that I was quite precise in my post you were referring to. I stated "no private citizen." The LEO was not a private citizen, the weapon was not registered to him. I do not believe he had departmental permission to take it from the armory. That makes it theft. Anyway the point is moot for I do not consider the automatic weapons of law enforcement agencies to be pertinent to this topic.

Dennis · March 11, 1999, 07:02 PM

Spartacus,

Perhaps our benevolent leaders made suicide a crime so that anyone who "conspires" or "facilitates" the suicide can be made a criminal. Perhaps you eventually can be held responsible if someone kills himself/herself with your gun, knife, car, medication, lamp cord, venetian blinds..... whatever. That way the loving survivors can be hurt twice.

Sorry for the dour mood. I just don't trust 'em like I used to...

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 11, 1999).]

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March 9, 1999, 07:01 AM	#1
Byron Quick Staff In Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,361	I found this while perusing HCI's Website. I have not exhaustively examined the site as my nausea index is quite low. I found this though: HCI is now classifying Class III firearms as "Weapons of Mass Destruction". I think they've got some more legislation in line for those of use who like full auto. In light of the regulations already in place, what could be next? Licensing of all Class III owners with renewal clauses. An annual $200 (Or $2000, inflation don't you know) tax? Do they now think they have the strength to go for a total ban?

March 9, 1999, 07:26 AM	#2
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	Oh boy. Can anyone ... anyone remember a criminal incident in the last 20 years where auto weapons have been used? Perhaps the bank shootout in ... was it North Hollywood? What do our LEO members think? Do they perceive Class III weapons as a realistic problem? I'm sure it happens, but it is extremely rare, no? As I recall, HCI also referred to so-called 'assault weapons' as the 'weapon of choice' for street criminals. Right. They're so concealable, after all. HCI doesn't trade in facts and reality ... they trade in emotional, marketable phrases designed to obfuscate the issues and lead the foolish. Incrementalism. HCI and others like them will never stop. It is time for incrementalism in the other direction.

March 9, 1999, 07:40 AM	#3
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	A Nuclear bomb, I.C.B.M.s, Anthrax - the're Weapons Of Mass Destruction ! HCI - "Handicapped Clinical Imbecilles" !! Jeeeez..... ------------------ "The Gun from Down Under !"

March 9, 1999, 07:48 AM	#4
Byron Quick Staff In Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,361	Sure, Jeff. There have been plenty of incidents involving automatic weapons. Damn near all the time in Miami. There have been none, repeat none, involving NFA registered weapons since passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934. No private citizen with a NFA registered weapon has EVER used that weapon in a crime. The NFA has not prevented any criminals from using them either. The 1986 ban on future production for private citizens has not stopped one incident. Between 1934 and 1986 approximately 125,000 weapons were registered with F Troop. In the months prior to the 1986 ban 186,000 weapons were registered for a total of approximately 311,000 Class III weapons. It would have taken 71 years at the prior rate of registration for that many automatic weapons to be legally registered. The year 2057! Conclusion? Either HCI's honchoes are very stupid or their agenda is not what they say it is. You choose.

March 9, 1999, 09:37 AM	#5
DC Moderator Emeritus Join Date: September 30, 1998 Location: Calif Posts: 4,229	"Protect the kids", "Instruments made with only one purpose, to kill and maim", "They kill more children than all illnesses and diseases combined", "assault weapons" and "These are weapons of mass destruction" HCI is incapable of speaking in anything but sensationalistic, emotion grabbing buzz terms. There is a quote from Sarah Brady (I'll try to find it) that states, basically, that the goal of HCI is to help make the US a socialist country. HCI isn't interested in safety or decreased violence...if that was the case they would be demanding that Eddie Eagle like programs be taught in public schools and they would be all over every DA prosecuting a gun violence case to get the maximum sentence, they would be demanding and pushing for stiffer sentences and no parole for offenders. Why is it that the only court cases you see them at are civil litigation cases? ------------------ "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

March 10, 1999, 04:11 AM	#6
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	Well, Spartacus, I'll stand corrected. The felons must simply be more frugal with ammo out here in little ol' Arizona. DC, don't you have to love some of that stuff? "Instruments made with only one purpose, to kill and maim" - now there's rocket science for you - it is a gun, isn't it? Wouldn't be very useful if you could only club things with it. This is rather like saying a car is only good for riding around in. And, did they really say "They kill more children than all illnesses and diseases combined"? That seems easily refuted, not to mention incredible. I note also that they include 17 year old drug dealers in such a total as well.

March 10, 1999, 04:30 AM	#7
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	Yes, it knocks me out with disbelief sometimes. I remember I was at some scum site or another, and they were pointing out the "dangerous purchasing trend toward more powerful calibers." I was like, "So? Good!" But I don't know anything. At least nothing important, apparently. Guns are for killing, I'll come out and say it. Some do the job better than others. I reject claims to the contrary as twaddle. I remember whatsis name, the filmmaker that did "Roger and Me", was interviewing a couple of gun shop guys some years ago. They were looking at like a Calico or something (I don't remember, I was young and didn't have the BUG yet). The thrust of the man's argument was "you can't say legitimately that this is for anything but killing people." The gun shop guys were hemming and hawing. They were all about, "well, you could use it for...(insert lame dodge here)." Even as a boy, I was disgusted. Just come out and say it, I thought, and say why it's okay that guns are for killing. Indeed, in some circumstances killing itself is completely okay. Woo, scary stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if some new legislation imposing an incredibly high tax on Class III stuff was passed. After all, $200 was totally extreme in the '30's. Ah, well, I'm just waiting for the Thermidorean Reaction...Then we'll have a president who could care less about foolish groups like HCI.

March 10, 1999, 08:34 AM	#8
cornered rat Junior member Join Date: November 30, 1998 Location: Minnesota Posts: 920	My take on"larger calibers" is that the 10-round magazine limit taught people about value of improving marksmanship and, since they can have a "natural" 10-rounder in .45 or .40, why not...a 10-shot 9mm that was meant to be a 17-shot but isn't offends my sensibility. My suggestion...do what I am doing this week...buy a used .22 rifle or pistol and give it to a responsible youngster (after providing training). For homework, ask for a summary of the origin and history of RKBA...let the kid do research. ------------------ Cornered "but cheery" Rat http://ddb.com/RKBA

March 10, 1999, 08:45 AM	#9
Ray VanderLinden Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 1999 Location: Southern Iowa Posts: 211	The only Class III weapon I know of being used in a crime, was one not legally owned, and two not used against anyone. Seems a VietNam Vet had shipped himself home a M-60 7.62NATO machinegun. HAd kept the weapon in his gunroom for 19 years with no Problem. Until 1988 when his Brain Dead 18 yearold son just had to show it off for his equally brain dead friends. The Neighbor also a Vet at first thought he was having a flashback, or a nightmare (it was 0130 hours) then the next burst went off and he was worried about his cattle. He Called the Sheriff and the weapon was seized. The Father was never charged, the son was charged with the reckless discharge of a weapon (to keep the Father , and maybe a few Deputies, out of trouble.) Seems several of the Deputies knew of the weapon's existance for as much as 15 years. And One Deputy had even fired it several years before, in a much more remote location. The Vet who owned it was not concidered a threat to anyone, and so no action was taken. This may serve to show the preceived threat of Class III weapons in the hands of otherwise law abiding citizens, to law enforcement. At any BATF agents reading this page,, Don't ask me where this happened, I WON'T KNOW.

March 10, 1999, 09:05 AM	#10
Dennis Staff Emeritus Join Date: November 23, 1998 Location: a small forest in Texas Posts: 7,079	Sen. Feinstein stated quite clearly that if she had the power, she would go house to house and force every American to give up every firearm in the country. Sarah Brady said the Brady Bill was just a first step. Sen. Schumer said the world isn't flat and the Second Amendment isn't absolute. Get over it! Sen. Boxer is about to introduce another anti-gun bill. Gee, I wonder what their goals are.... duh!! I was told last night that Massachusetts just passed a law requiring a license to have a firearm in your home. In your home. In your castle!!!!! Good Lord, can that actually be true?

March 10, 1999, 09:09 AM	#11
Byron Quick Staff In Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,361	Dennis, the People's Republic of Massachusetts law is worse than that. Check it out. Under the recently enacted law you cannot carry an unloaded musket in a reenactment scenario. A veteran cannot carry an unloaded rifle in a Veteran's Day parade.

March 10, 1999, 10:09 AM	#12
Mike in VA Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 1998 Location: Santa FE, NM Posts: 2,163	The primary rationale of our nuclear arsenal (an instrument of mass destruction if every there was one) has been as a deterence to similar and other forms of armed aggression. With two possible exceptions (Hirosima & Nagasaki), the rationale seems to have held up. Seems to me that citizens' guns fit the same profile if you consider the number of times they're used as a deterent vs number of times actually fired (FBI estimates in less than 2% of encounters). HCI is an instrument of mass stupidity. M2

March 10, 1999, 10:33 AM	#13
DC Moderator Emeritus Join Date: September 30, 1998 Location: Calif Posts: 4,229	Mike... Guess you missed the newsflash that 1) The collective mentality of governments is infinately more intelligent and rational than the separate mentalities of its citizens. 2) The Universal laws of Cause and Effect somehow are reversed when comparing person to person vs government to government 3) Governments always make well-thought out, well planned actions, unlike the average citizen who only acts rashly and capriciously ------------------ "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

March 10, 1999, 10:53 AM	#14
bookkie Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 1999 Location: Arbuckle, CA, usa Posts: 1,269	What we are fighting here is perception. For example, the local gun club I belong to has since the 1930's had a program where they would take all the 12-18 year old kids from a local orphanage, run them through the NRA hunter's safety course and then take them out for a few days of pheasant hunting. We would usually end up taking around 50-75 kids out each year. Was a lot of fun to see those kid's faces light up when they got their first bird. This year we were informed that the orphanage would no longer participate, "as guns are evil and we are encouraging the kids to join gangs and use the guns to kill people". Don't have to tell you that they just got a new director. By the way for those of you in the know, the NRA hunter's safety course did not start in the 30's. It was sometime later, but I'm proud to say that our instructor was one of the first three certified NRA instructors in the nation. He is still going strong teaching the course in his mid 70's. The gist of this little story is that we are fighting a propaganda war. And we are losing badly. It is getting harder each year to come up with our 10-20 kids for the junior shooters program. We must change our attitude and fight back. We can no longer afford to make excuses for why we have a weapon or why we need this. What we have to do is change our tack. Something like "And you don't own a gun? What's the matter with you? Are you a coward? A communist? Why are you jerking your duty to be armed for the defense of all?" We must change the perception that people have of guns. We must show them that we are proud to be gun owners and that it is a good thing, not an evil. Thanks, Richard

March 11, 1999, 02:12 AM	#15
Jeff OTMG Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: OKC, OK & Austin, Tx Posts: 3,707	Spartacus - There are uses of illegally posessed full auto weapons but there has also been two occurrences of legally possessed Class III weapons since 1934 that I am aware of. The first was in the 1970's, a suicide in Tenn., the second was a LEO in Detroit using a department owned in a mob hit.

March 11, 1999, 06:01 PM	#16
Byron Quick Staff In Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,361	Suicide may technically be a crime but I don't know of anyone being successfully prosecuted for committing it (Sorry, couldn't resist for this has to be the all time winner for most stupid law) Notice also that I was quite precise in my post you were referring to. I stated "no private citizen." The LEO was not a private citizen, the weapon was not registered to him. I do not believe he had departmental permission to take it from the armory. That makes it theft. Anyway the point is moot for I do not consider the automatic weapons of law enforcement agencies to be pertinent to this topic.

March 11, 1999, 07:02 PM	#17
Dennis Staff Emeritus Join Date: November 23, 1998 Location: a small forest in Texas Posts: 7,079	Spartacus, Perhaps our benevolent leaders made suicide a crime so that anyone who "conspires" or "facilitates" the suicide can be made a criminal. Perhaps you eventually can be held responsible if someone kills himself/herself with your gun, knife, car, medication, lamp cord, venetian blinds..... whatever. That way the loving survivors can be hurt twice. Sorry for the dour mood. I just don't trust 'em like I used to... [This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 11, 1999).]