The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights > Legal and Political

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 9, 2000, 11:38 AM   #1
Scott Evans
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: December 7, 1998
Location: Jacksonville, NC
Posts: 1,380
Below is hypothetical; however, they are statements or “condensed paraphrases” of some things I have heard people say about CCW permits.

1.) I have heard it said that if you carry a handgun concealed that you had better have a CCW permit.

2.) I have also heard from folks (folks who have no criminal record and are knowledgeable and proficient with arms) say that in most states it is no great advantage to have the CCWP.

Some reasons stated for the latter include:

- “I already have a permit … it’s call the 2nd amendment …”

- “CCWP are enablers for the gun grabbers.”

- “I never do anything wrong and the only way someone will know I am carrying is if I am attacked and defend myself.”

- ”I am pro Law enforcement but more pro- constitutional freedom … Non compliance with bad laws is a duty of the citizens of a free government.”


I suppose my question is; by becoming CCW permit holders do we help or hinder the cause of restoring the freedoms that the Constitution states that we should have?

BY having a permit do we in some way acknowledge the legitimacy of some level of citizen restriction with regard to keeping and bearing of arms?

Or; by not complying do we become irrational radicals and negate the trust required by the rest of society to enjoy such a freedom?

Ramble mode off … just was thinking out loud.




------------------
“We are the pilgrims masters; we shall go, always, a little farther. “
Scott Evans is offline  
Old February 9, 2000, 12:08 PM   #2
Skyhawk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2000
Posts: 616
Scott,

Good thought provoking thread. Folks will be lining up on both sides of this issue.

Personally, I would prefer to carry unfettered without CCW/CHL and did for many years. Unfortunately, that act has expensive legal implications in the state of Texas.

I guess that I have given in a little (or a lot) by “being authorized by the state” to carry legally. I don’t like it but that’s the next best thing until proper legislation changes the existing laws.

I take my civic duties seriously and promote RKBA financially and morally. I also take every opportunity to make sure that I do not support the antis.

As I started collecting class 3 stuff back in the early 70’s, my personal data has long been established with the authorities.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Skyhawk

Skyhawk is offline  
Old February 9, 2000, 04:36 PM   #3
RMc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Location: McKinleyville, CA, USA
Posts: 143
I absolutely believe that when one obtains any sort of permit for a God-given Constitutional right--now matter how attractive or easy it may be--one is admitting freely that the statists have the right to approve or deny such rights, despite what one may say to the contrary.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly understand why many desire to obtain CCWs, especially with the price of noncompliance with dictates being so high. We all have choices, no matter what some pompous statists in Washington or Sacramento or wherever may say. But in the end, there's no getting around the fact that actions speak louder than words.

The same goes for registration.
RMc is offline  
Old February 9, 2000, 05:01 PM   #4
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
Principled opposition to what one considers a bad law is part of our national heritage, from the days of the Stamp Act to the days of the Civil Rights movement.

But one who chooses to disobey the law on principle had better be prepared to accept the consequences - legal costs, fines, and possibly jail time.

The laws against carrying a gun are probably among the most violated laws in the nation, next to speed limit laws. Still, they are enforced and they can bring penalties. The constitutional issue was settled long ago and is no defense. (Don't argue with me about it, try it on a court!)

Basically, those who face a real, immediate threat will feel a need to carry a gun and will carry a gun, law or no law. Those who do not have a compelling need and to whom a danger is hypothetical will obey the law and either get a CCW license or not carry. Those who face no real threat and carry a gun illegally anyway are risking penalties for no good reason and might reconsider.

A real threat is when a real BG tells you to your face that he is going to fit you up for a toe tag. A hypothetical threat is "if I am attacked some time somewhere by somebody."

OK, flamers, let 'er rip.

Jim

James K is offline  
Old February 9, 2000, 06:45 PM   #5
Monkeyleg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2000
Posts: 4,625
Scott, if you look and behave like middle America (and have a good carry rig and wardrobe), you'll probably never be discovered. Hence, you'd be "safe" carrying without a CCW. I, by the way, _am_ the epitome of the law-abiding middle class American male. Except that I look somewhat like a biker. And I've spent a lot of time over the years "assuming the position" because of my appearance. On the other hand, when my wife and I went to New Orleans for New Years, I changed my wardrobe to a corduroy sportcoat,
half-glasses and a little peace symbol pin on the lapel. Never got a second look from the NOPD. Nor a pat-down that would have found my
.45.


Dick

Monkeyleg is offline  
Old February 9, 2000, 07:21 PM   #6
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
I support getting a CCW to carry.

Why?:

1. It "helps" support statistics that Americans can be trusted with CCWs. i.e.- The numbers that show how safe and law abiding CCW holders are.

2. You are commiting a misdemeanor or felony, depending on where you live. Displaying a photocopy of the Bill of Rights and speaking of your right to keep and bare arms will get you nowhere in court. You will be branded a criminal.

3. Once convicted in court, you help "prove" the anti-gun lobby's case for them. After all, you will be considered amoung the State's/ Nation's criminals who used a gun.

4. You do not look like a "gun nut," something the general population is becoming more and more paranoid about. This plays directly into the anti-gun movement's hands.

5. You will moe than likely forfiet your gun. Once more, well rehearsed speaches on the right to keep and bare arms will get you nowhere.

Thats the gist of it for now.

Erik

Erik is offline  
Old February 9, 2000, 07:46 PM   #7
Coinneach
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: February 23, 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,272
Erik, I understand that you're approaching the issue from an LEO perspective, but do you realize the implications of your statements?

Displaying a photocopy of the Bill of Rights and speaking of your right to keep and bare arms will get you nowhere in court. You will be branded a criminal.

Once more, well rehearsed speaches on the right to keep and bare arms will get you nowhere.


So are you suggesting that we ignore The Law in favor of some Constitutionally-challenged idiot's interpretation of the law, just to avoid a confrontation?

I think not.

As far as I'm concerned, the Constitution IS the law, and no little pissant county magistrate has the authority or right to restrict it. And I *will* argue the point in court, should it come to that.

CCW permits are, to be quite plain, ILLEGAL; illegal in concept ("...shall NOT be infringed") and in execution (requiring proof of innocence). That it makes us look good is beside the point.

If I so chose, I could go down to the sheriff's office (after disarming, of course), fill out the paperwork, plunk down my $99, get photoed and printed, and get the permit in the mail some weeks later. However, I choose to not beg and bribe for official permission to exercise a right which no man nor government may limit.

------------------
"If your determination is fixed, I do not counsel you to despair. Few things are impossible to diligence and skill. Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance."
-- Samuel Johnson
Coinneach is offline  
Old February 9, 2000, 08:58 PM   #8
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
I once posted a long analysis that was proCHL or CCW. Started quite an argument. You might
search for it. Or it might have been on rec.guns or both.

Part of my pragmatic approach and strategy that drives some folks wild.
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old February 10, 2000, 06:50 AM   #9
mk86fcc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 1, 1999
Location: NE Florida
Posts: 629
Let me preface what I'm about to say by stating that I unequivocably believe CCW laws to be unconstitutional. Now, do I have a permit? Yep. My beliefs aside, I simply do not have the wherewithal to fight a lengthy court battle that I might ultimately lose anyway. Is that "knuckling under?" Maybe it is. Or maybe it's just accepting reality. As for the arguement that as long as you're law-abiding - well, there are just too many possibilities beyond my control. An example that comes immediately to mind is a car wreck. I've no control over some drunk running a red light and broadsiding me. Presuming I survived, would the local DA turn a blind eye to the .38 on me after it was all over? (Well, the one we have where I live now might, but what happens when he's gone?) As long as I live somewhere I can get a permit, I will. If I find myself living somewhere permits aren't available, well, what I do then is my business...

------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
mk86fcc is offline  
Old February 10, 2000, 10:15 AM   #10
Oleg Volk
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 7,022
Then there's always the question of states like MO, IL, etc. -- if CHLs are plain unavailable in the entire state of Illinois, what options exist short of moving? (then again, my family did move even further once and took me along, so changing states w/o even having to learn a new language ought not be too hard)
Oleg Volk is offline  
Old February 10, 2000, 10:29 AM   #11
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 15, 1999
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,558
Some very good opinions here. I don't currently have the option of getting a concealed carry license, so it is somewhat of a moot point for me. My family is better off spiritually, mentally, physically and financially if I am not in jail, though. If I had the choice, I would get the permit.
As to whether or not that is "knuckling under" to an unconstitutional law, I think it is. I would still do it though, for many of the same reasons that Erik cited above.
How do I deal with the hypocracy of this? A new TFL member, Tracker, has written a very good essay called "Tao of Gun" that explores many of the questions that we pose here. Here is an excerpt: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Waking Up

Different events wake different people. The process of getting a gun woke me up. It woke me up to the kind of world that I and all of us collectively have allowed to develop. It also woke me up to the trajectory on which we have placed ourselves and our children.

For me, waking up means taking 100% responsibility for my life and my world. It means I'm responsible both for my own safety and well-being, and for the State that legislates how I am allowed to do that.

Acting In Consciousness

Once awake, what do we do? I imagine an inmate in a mental institution who stops taking his drugs and begins to see clearly and the first thing he realizes is "I'm a prisoner in a mental institution." Strategically, it is better if he goes about his daily routine as if none-the-wiser than if he starts storming the doors and screaming at the guards.

One woman dutifully gets her driver's license and marriage license and fills out her infant's Social Security Card Application never giving it a second thought -- it's what you're supposed to do. Another woman applies for a gun license and gives her fingerprints and has an FBI criminal check run on her so she can have a State license to protect herself and her children. However she does it in full consciousness that this is a charade. It serves no purpose to yell at the guard of the asylum. There is a tremendous difference in the energy beacon of the person who abides the regulations from a consciousness of sovereignty and one who abides them because, "Isn't that what you're supposed to do?"

Acting in full consciousness of your sovereignty, even if you're doing unsovereign play acting, I believe impacts the awareness of all and has the potential for creating a critical mass, a 100th Monkey Effect, wherein people who otherwise would not have considered the topic, begin to wake up to their own sovereignty.


Copyright © 2000 Richard Roberts. All Rights Reserved. <A HREF="http://www.starseedcreations.com/RKBA/tao_of_gun.html" TARGET=_blank>Tao of Gun[/quote]</A>
There is no reason to yell at the guards. The key is to make your case with the administration. What good does it do to pitch a fit at the local police and not write your congressman?
I imagine a time when *so* many people have CCW licenses and crime levels are lower than ever, that the government passes National CCW Reciprocity; Vermont style.

OK, dream over. Back to reality. I still can't legally carry a concealed handgun outside my own house.


------------------
RKBA!

"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website


[This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited February 10, 2000).]
TheBluesMan is offline  
Old February 10, 2000, 11:09 AM   #12
Paul Revere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 1999
Posts: 624
I just posted this on another thread in the General Discussion section, but I think it is worthy of responding here as well...

Here in Illinois, and all of the other 49 states, we don't need a CHL/CCW license to carry a weapon, because our right to keep and bear arms is protected by the 2nd Amendment.

Accepting any lesser rule, than the rule of law (the U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights), is merely a surrender to tyranny in progress. Any lesser rule is nothing more than an un-Constitutional infringement upon our sacred Rights.

It is "We the People" who govern this land. Last I checked, all of our Rights are still intact.

There are no dangerous weapons, there are only dangerous men.


Paul Revere is offline  
Old February 10, 2000, 11:10 AM   #13
labgrade
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: November 29, 1999
Location: west of a small town, CO
Posts: 4,346
Actually, from my perspective, even if the Constitution did not allow for the recognition of the RKBA, being alive gives me all the right I need to carry - concealed or not. I'm no danger to those who aren't a danger to me & mine. OK, so that's where I stand.

The US Const. does not address CCW at all. To me, it provides for (recognizes) RKBA in any manner we choose.

But, CO's const. specifically mentions nothing shall be construed to allow for CCW.

So Coin, since states' rights probably are a big ticket item, how say you?

To be used for discussional purposes only.
labgrade is offline  
Old February 10, 2000, 11:21 AM   #14
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 15, 1999
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,558
Paul Revere,
I see that you are from Chicago. I know that they have some of the most restrictive laws against guns in the country. I certainly don't want to ask you if you carry concealed within the city limits, but perhaps you know of someone who did, got caught, and went up against the system with the Constitution as a defense.
I'd be very interested in the outcome of such a case. If anyone knows of a case like this, I think that there would be quite a few members who would like to know the outcome.


------------------
RKBA!

"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
TheBluesMan is offline  
Old February 11, 2000, 02:46 PM   #15
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
Law in America is interpreted, or based on precedent. (Simplistic, but accurate enough for our purposes.) To effectively change the law you must ultimately change the social consciousness of America. Legislaters are subsequently contacted, and ultimately proposed new legislation is debated and written into law. Someone breaks the law, and goes to court. Lawyers present their cases and a judge rules only on points of order and law. Juries decide. Appeals are made. Repeate the process, but now only proceedure and points of law are reviewed. The merits of the case have little to do with anything. The case is decided. IF the Supreme Court decides to hear the cases, substantive legal precedent can be erased or written. The SC Justices hold "all" the answers, but decide relatively few issues. Point in case- when was the last substantive decision of the 2nd Amendment? Gun owners assume we are right. Why hasn't the SC upheld our beliefs? Get the ball rolling- join the NRA, vote in every election. Support pro gun education and legislation. Here's a biggie: do something to sway public opinion! Change the social consciousness of America BACK to how we want it. That will start the process I described above.

I don't advocate breaking the law because it does none of the above, accept get you involved in the legal system- and if you are not rich, or the lawyer, you do not want to be involved in the legal system.

Erik

Sorry if I rambled- I was in a hurry.
Erik is offline  
Old February 11, 2000, 03:01 PM   #16
Lavan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 1999
Location: California
Posts: 2,714
I got mine because my profession (pawnbroker/coin dealer) is a "target" job.
An associate did not have or carry and he is now dead (while opening the store)

We "should" be able to carry as long as we use it responsibly. It would cut crime.

However, cutting crime is not on the political agenda as it is far more profitable to "deal with the issue" of crime. The profit in "crime trade" for equipment, more personnel, training, studies, prison construction, etc. etc. etc. is enormous and if it didn't exist, there would no longer be any incentive to spend $300-400K to get elected to some county office that pays $50,000 a year.

This whole country is hypocrisy. And we live in it and deal with it every day.

One thing to bear in mind is that if one does carry without CCW and has an accident or health emergency, he could wake up in a jail and get a "gun crime" against his record that could even prevent him from BUYING another gun to replace the one that they would take away.
Lavan is offline  
Old February 11, 2000, 03:53 PM   #17
Paul Revere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 1999
Posts: 624
TheBluesMan...

Well I don't actually "live" in Chicago, so I'm not subject to the communist dicatorship of the Daley administration and/or the Cook County Board. But even if I did, I'd ignore their infringements to our Constitution just the same. Please read between the lines.

As in all big cities where gun control laws are plentiful, the gangs rule the streets. The cops fight a seemingly endless war to prevent the hostiles from spilling over into civility. Opportunistic criminals are everywhere in big cities, and they can be brazen, fearless, and quite bold. Short of becoming another criminal statistic, those of us who reluctantly support the welfare bottom feeders with our hard earned government extorted monies, need to protect ourselves from the hard realities we all face.

It always surprises me when "outsiders" make comments about the "tough gun control laws". They DO NOT apply to you or I as Americans (non-criminals), so we need not pay attention to any of them. An American who carries a firearm is doing nothing but exercising his unalienable right to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. He is NOT breaking the law!

As for cases where a law abiding person was arrested for no other reason than carrying a concealed firearm, I know of none. The most recent case I can remember was an old man (in Chicago proper) who used his handgun to defend his property, and NO charges were filed against him. Furthermore, the so-called "Safe Neighborhood Act" in Chicago which made it a felony if you (an innocent citizen) were caught with a firearm (among many other things), was recently voided because of its "Constitutionality" so said the Illinois Supreme Court.

I just don't understand why upstanding Americans fear exercising their unalienable rights...God given rights...Constitutionally protected rights. Submitting to tyranny in progress perhaps...not me.



[This message has been edited by Paul Revere (edited February 11, 2000).]
Paul Revere is offline  
Old February 12, 2000, 08:52 AM   #18
jeffelkins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Posts: 410
Like it or not, we no longer live in a free country. Like our money, our constitution is no longer worth the parchment it's printed on. Citing the constitution in court will get you nowhere.

Here in Florida (the state that started the CCW wave) unlicensed carrying is a felony punishable by up to five years in the slam.

Prison is often itself a effective death sentence. Racial warfare, homosexual rape, AIDS, etc.

It's not worth it. Get a CCW or if that's not possible, do martial arts or carry a weapon that has plausible deniability like a heavy flashlight or cane.
jeffelkins is offline  
Old February 12, 2000, 02:02 PM   #19
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
This is not to be cranky as I do support people taking measures to defend themselves but ...

Unless you have a documentable problem, carrying a cane will not protect you from
legal ramifications as its use as a weapon.

In fact, some states have club laws. If you drive around with a baseball bat, you better have a mitt and a ball.

Canes are wonderfully impractical for normal life. Walking with your kid in the mall carrying shopping bags and the like. When you show up at work with a cane, what is your story? In fact, we had a guy here start to wander around with a big walking stick. Must have been reading too much Bradley Steiner and American Combato. Since he was not injured, he was visited by the powers to ask what was up.

Would a cane mark you as a person with a handicap? Target!

Do you know how to use a cane? If you did with martial arts training, is it then a lethal weapon that you are carrying?

If no guns are allowed, you are better off with an OC (and yes, I have read the real literature on OC) or perhaps a Delica.

As far as people being busted for just carrying a gun - that's what the street crimes units do. If you can get a CHL or CCW - just do it. Fight the constitutional battles in court with reasoned legal briefs.


Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old February 12, 2000, 02:11 PM   #20
Jim Stouffer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2000
Posts: 3
Its a cry'in shame that we have to resort to a backdoor approach (getting a permit, to carring a concealed weapon. As far as I am concerned, our U.S. Constitution gives us that right as well as (in my case)the Ohio Constitution. Too bad the Supreme Court doesn't want to settle the issue once and for all. I thought their job was to interpret the Constitution? What are they waiting for?.................

------------------
Jim Stouffer
"The people have a right to bear arms for their defense and security" Ohio Constitution, Art.1, Sec.4 (Bill of Rights)
Jim Stouffer is offline  
Old February 12, 2000, 04:08 PM   #21
foxfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 689
Scott,

How about re-qualifying before a 'permit' is renewed? There is no provision for that in my State, at this time.
But I would think that, if or when, a National CCW becomes a reality, this would be one of the requirements.

The reason I bring this up, is that (as I tried to explain on another thread) I have met far too many people that carry, don't practice at all, and aren't responsible enough to have the 'privilege'.
Yes, I'm aware that it is their 'right'; but their gungho attitudes, frankly, scare me.
Maybe, a little regulation, here and there, can be a good thing after all...

------------------
...defend the 2nd., it protects us all.
No fate but what we make...
foxfire is offline  
Old February 12, 2000, 04:18 PM   #22
Mal H
Staff
 
Join Date: March 20, 1999
Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia
Posts: 16,939
This is a quick thought on the subject I just had:

If everyone that owned a gun, any gun, in every state that allowed CCW's would get a CCW, then that would be a good form of protest. In other words, fight fire with numbers. When millions upon millions of people do something, it tends to make it hard to contradict the widsom of doing it.
Mal H is offline  
Old February 13, 2000, 02:09 AM   #23
Don Randall
Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2000
Posts: 43
While reading the posts in this discussion,
I began to ponder my own attitude. I find
that I agree, in philosophy, with those who
see no reason to ask permission to exercise
a constitutionally guaranteed right. I also
recognize that there are many who will abuse
the power entrusted to them - they have done
so - whether they be elected or appointed to
office or hired by the elected and appointed.
Therefore, I have to agree with those who
advocate compliance with laws currently in
force and enforced - even though I find such
laws to be repugnant to the constitution of
the nation and my state, and obnoxious to me
personally. I honestly believe that there
are more of "us" than there are of "them".
Unfortunately, "we" tend to be well behaved
individuals and "they" tend to be strident
and better organized. We will not win by
way of individual acts of defiance. We must
use the tactics that have succeeded for our opposition. Strength in numbers, financial and moral support for those elected officials that support us will do more for our cause.
-Don-
Don Randall is offline  
Old February 13, 2000, 09:33 PM   #24
Denver
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2000
Posts: 1
I realize this may not be the forum for this question, however. All the talk about CCW makes me wonder about some practicle questions for the experienced concealed carry folks.
Like....
I have a CCW for Colorado. I have it because my life was threatened and I continue to be at risk. I work in an office which is accessable to the public. My question is that most if not all companies prohibit this action and can search you and your bag with no notice.
If you comply with these policies the CCW permit is useful for off office hours application and begs the question of what good is it?
If you carry and get caught even if you have a permit your acrrier could be over.
Any wisdon????
Denver is offline  
Old February 13, 2000, 10:04 PM   #25
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
Denver, assuming that it is not against the law to carry at your work place - I would ask how much you want or need this job.

Does you company know of your problem?
I don't know your gender.
Is it common for them to search employees?
How do they search? Pat downs, metal detectors?

How do you dress?

There are very small but useful guns like
the P-32. Ultimate small gun is the NAA
22S mini revolver. Easy to hide in several
ways that would need strip searchs to find.

If you don't want to risk it - as I said before you can do a lot with a knife and some reasonable training. Same with OC.
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08302 seconds with 7 queries