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Old June 19, 2000, 05:51 PM   #1
RickD
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I tried to post this in my other thread but it wouldn't take it. Soooo....


I got this from someone I trust implicitly--

Here is the latest info forwarded from the Libertarian County Chair in Phoenix

<snip>
BATF phone number - 602-776-5400
Public information officer - Tom Mangan

Friday search warrant at his house (Robert Wilson Stewart) was acted on by the BATF
because,... he had a previous felony - felony for possession of machine guns 1994 out of Utah. Did a couple of years.

The chronology of the investigation went something like this; the Firearm Technical Branch of the BATF determined that these "kits" were readily able to be turned into a firearm and therefore IS a firearm,.. sooooooooo, they must/may have/probably been converted so the judge issued the warrent based on these facts and the fact that he was a past felon.

Mr. Mangan of the BATF kept putting me on hold and coming back to ask me more questions
about who I was and what interest I had in the story. I told him who I was [Libertarian County Chair] and that we publish a Libertarian Tabloid and had planned to raffle off at least one of the "kits" for a fund raiser and that this arrest would be GREAT publicity for the raffle.....

on hold again........

I then asked why they waited until now since the production of these 'Kits" have been known for a long time.....

on hold again......

He asked if he could call me back. Sure. Here's my phone numbers. But I'll be unavailable after 45 min. So please get right back to me, I have many questions .
<snip>

Ernie loves publicity,

Rick
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Old June 19, 2000, 09:07 PM   #2
ctdonath
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Some BATF agent observed that the rule of thumb is that parts constitute a gun if they can be assembled and/or machined into one in 8 hours.

Someone else observed that a competent machinist could turn a VW Bug into a machine gun in 8 hours.
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Old June 19, 2000, 10:13 PM   #3
Shin-Tao
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The ATF simply makes up laws on the fly, and our socialist courts let it happen.
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Old June 19, 2000, 10:57 PM   #4
RickD
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Another update from the Maricopa County Libertarian County Chair...

<snip>
The BATF agent hasn't called back. So I called and got his voice mail.

I asked that he try to find the answers to some questions before he called me back.

-Were any of the items seized a converted firarm or were they yet to be converted?
-Where is he being held?
-What are the charges?
-Has he an attorney yet? (does he need one
<snip>
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Old June 19, 2000, 11:34 PM   #5
Waterdog
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Every home in America has materials to assemble a weapon in less than 8 hrs.

Klintons communist agenda continues to move forward.

Waterdog
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Old June 20, 2000, 01:40 AM   #6
Jeff Thomas
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ctdonath, do you happen to have the plans for that VW conversion?

Regards from AZ
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Old June 20, 2000, 09:48 AM   #7
dZ
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i guess i had better watch out, cause i have 2 spare bug motors stored under my canoe in my backyard. Maybe i should apply for an arsenal licence.

this is on FR: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a394b0b9d287f.htm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hi, This was sent to me via a friend. Late friday night/early saturday morning (ie. in the middle of the night.), 10 carloads of BATF agents broke into Maddi-Griffins house (he is actually Bob Stewart),
roughed up his wife, scared his 3 lovely children half to death (they are 2, 5, and 7) and took him away, as well as his computer, kits, and who knows what else. As of 7:00 PM Saturday he was being held
in Mea Culpa (sp?), a town in Arizona, with no charges being filed. He lives in Mesa, Arizona. The original news came out via radio, and was confirmed via telephone. Before it happened (possibly days
before), helicopters had been flying over the house, and people had been taking pictures from outside the house. I say this was a Janet Reno fathers day present to the second amendment lovers, and those
who believe in the fourth amendment. The "Jackbooted thugs" struck again, and we had better beware, we do not know who they will strike next. Our supporter, thinks he may be on their list.[/quote]

dZ
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Old June 20, 2000, 11:24 AM   #8
Nestor Rivera
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as for the VW to gun conversion

any engine cyl. can be a black powder morter

most drive trains are basicly heavy gauge pipe or low grade barrels

Just a thinking all the time

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Old June 20, 2000, 01:05 PM   #9
RickD
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Mr. Stewart is scheduled to be arraigned in federal court today (somewhere in Phoenix).

His story made the Mesa Tribune and has been the topic on at least one radio show. The host was on our side, some of the callers are quite ignorant, however. They were calling his single-shot rifle an assault weapon. The BATF representative was reported as saying that there was not need for such an "assault weapon...no sporting use for something that can go through an inch and a half of steel..." Tell that to an Elk.

I haven't read the story yet, but Mr. Stewart appears to be very defiant. I smell a court fight as high as he can take it.

The BATF are no doubt going after his felony status (convicted of possession of an unregistered machine gun) he didn't pay the $200 tax. They are also going to say that having parts of a gun, barrel, receiver (that requires machining to make operate) trigger group, etc. constitutes a firearm.

My understanding is that under the law and BATF regs this is not so. Is it illegal for a non-violent felon to make a barrel? A trigger group? A non-functioning receiver?

It appears that the guy was within the law unless someone can show me otherwise. The BATF is trying a test case of their own. They really hate the .50 BMG.

Rick
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Old June 20, 2000, 01:15 PM   #10
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You can machine a gun from a block of steel, does this make a block of steel illegal to sell without an FFL?

------------------
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Old June 20, 2000, 01:55 PM   #11
dZ
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came across my email:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>&gt;This info is from the Second Amendment Sisters AZ Coordinator, who lives
&gt;in Mesa, AZ:
&gt;
&gt;Big fish to fry! It was confirmed in the local (Mesa AZ) newspaper today
&gt;that Bob Stewart the owner of ..50bmg manufacturer, Maadi-Griffin was
&gt;arrested Friday by the BATF. Mr. Stewart was arrested in his garage while
&gt;his wife and children were inside their home. Seized in the raid was a
&gt;"stockpile" of weapons, including 40 guns, boxes of ammunition, gun parts
&gt;and the 3000 names of his customers.
&gt;
&gt;The BATF claims that Mr. Stewart is a convicted felon and has been selling
&gt;his guns and gun kits over the Internet to bypass federal firearms laws.
&gt;And that he advertises the fact that his kits require no FFL to purchase.
&gt;
&gt;Maadi-Griffin has been in business for 10 years without problems from the
&gt;BATF.
&gt;
&gt;BATF agent Thomas Mangan said to the reporter, "we see no legitimate use
&gt;for a gun like this, unless you are in the military". He went on to say,
&gt;"no vest in the world could protect a law enforcement officer from a gun
&gt;like this".
&gt;
&gt;Mangan also said. "The kits are equipped with a part that prevents the gun
&gt;from operating unless the part is removed by a machinist". In accordance
&gt;with BATF regulations the kit is technically incapable of being
&gt;fired. But Mangan said that the gun is so easily retrofitted to become
&gt;operational that authorities felt Stewart was flagrantly violating gun
&gt;regulations.
&gt;
&gt;Mr. Stewart said, "I have a wife and children, friends, church and all
&gt;that. I am willing to die for this if I have to".
&gt;
&gt;The article went on to list his assets and listed the value of his home at
&gt;$256,000. Sounds like asset forfeiture is next to come.
&gt;
&gt;This is my summary on this story:
&gt;
&gt;1. The guns were manufactured in accordance with BATF regs.
&gt;
&gt;2. Maadi-Griffin bypassed a "loophole" in the regs.
&gt;
&gt;3. Mr. Stewart was a "felon".
&gt;
&gt;4. 3000 persons have purchased this gun.
&gt;
&gt;5. Mr. Stewart has valuable assets.
&gt;
&gt;I believe that the BATF found it easier and more efficient to arrest Mr.
&gt;Stewart instead of changing BATF regulations. In the name of bureaucratic
&gt;efficiency they will destroy this man and his family. Do you think that
&gt;the BATF will not do anything with the customer list?
&gt;
&gt;Plan on seeing more of this in the near future.[/quote]
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Old June 20, 2000, 02:12 PM   #12
Grin&Barrett
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No doubt the names are being "processed" now.
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Old June 20, 2000, 02:14 PM   #13
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dZ:
came across my email:

...

&gt;
&gt;BATF agent Thomas Mangan said to the reporter, "we see no legitimate use
&gt;for a gun like this, unless you are in the military". He went on to say,
&gt;"no vest in the world could protect a law enforcement officer from a gun
&gt;like this".
&gt;
...

[/quote]


Guess i should get rid of that 308 lever i got from my father... oh whell...

------------------
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

~USP

"... I rejoice that America has resisted [The Stamp Act]. Three millions of people, so dead to all feelings of liberty as to voluntarily submit to being slaves, would have been fit instruments to make slaves of the rest of us." -- William Pitt, British Parliament, December 1765

[This message has been edited by USP45 (edited June 20, 2000).]
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Old June 20, 2000, 02:31 PM   #14
John/az2
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DAMNIT DAMNIT DAMNIT!!!!

What can we do besides "writing" placebic letters?!

When is it going to happen to US individually!?

Are these actions escalating or am I imagining it? Is this the result of "project exile"? NRA sanctioned brutilization of law abiding citizens under the pretense of "enforcing the laws already on the books"? Do YOU know if YOU are violating one of the reported 20,000 different laws that we suffer under?

SO !@$!#$@#% WHAT IF HE POSSESED AN UNTAXED FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPON!! THAT'S OUR FREAKING RIGHT TO OWN SUCH AN "ASSUALT" WEAPON!!

BASTARDS!!

------------------
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Old June 20, 2000, 02:35 PM   #15
JimDiver
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John/az2:
DAMNIT DAMNIT DAMNIT!!!!

What can we do besides "writing" placebic letters?!
[/quote]


Your might want to read the artical I posted in http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/fo...threadid=27516 and the thread for that answer.


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Old June 20, 2000, 02:43 PM   #16
John/az2
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Jim,

I read it, and cut and pasted it to your thread.

I have never been arrested, nor do I know anyone personally who has. I read all the posts concerning these "raids" and am trying to learn as much as I can.

There don't seem to be too many options left...

------------------
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"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
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Old June 20, 2000, 04:54 PM   #17
denfoote
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Write your congressman now!!!!
Demand the de-funding of the BATF!!!!

------------------
BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!

Yeah, I got a permit to carry,it's called the friggin Constitution.---Ted Nugent

"Man killing is nasty business"---Finn Aggard
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Old June 20, 2000, 05:57 PM   #18
RickD
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Agree.

Now that you have posted this information all over the internet, you need to post it to local and national media. Then you need to go to a mail-server www.keepandbeararms.com and mail your congresscritter.

Keep spreading the word. This guy was set up with the machine gun and now he is being taken for a ride (and us with him).

Rick
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Old June 20, 2000, 10:17 PM   #19
RickD
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A little more info
http://www.sierratimes.com/araz062000.htm
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Old June 21, 2000, 07:46 AM   #20
Joel Harmon
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"We see no legitimate use for a gun like this unless you're in the military," he said. "No vest in the world could protect a law enforcement officer from a gun like this."
---Source: Sierra Times

"...which is exactly the reason citizens need access to it."
---Source: Joel Harmon
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Old June 21, 2000, 09:09 AM   #21
mussi
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Chances are here that such a widespread bad treatment of citizens would either result in quick disposition of our Government or in an outright war. And - lots of steel core bullet will defeat armor vests.

But anyway, the .50 BMG is anti-materiel round - if somebody wears so much material, that he 'needs' a .50, then he should maybe start running.
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Old June 21, 2000, 10:22 AM   #22
RickD
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Snipped from today's Worldnet Daily. Also available at www.keepandbeararms.com

&lt;snip&gt;

According to Gritz, Naomi Stewart said
that when the BATF claimed to find about
40 guns in their house, her husband Bob
whispered into her ear: "Those are not our
guns; they're planting those guns."

Gritz told WorldNetDaily the Stewarts
were living in Utah about six years ago
when Bob Stewart was featured on two
magazine covers with his self-designed
rifle. The BATF subsequently raided his
store and asked him to stop building the
Maadi-Griffin. He refused to comply,
based on the Second Amendment.

A couple of days later, according to Gritz,
two men entered Stewart's shop with an
AR-15 and asked him to "tighten the
scope." As soon as Stewart applied a
screwdriver to the weapon, the two men
pulled out their ATF badges and arrested
him because the AR-15 had been modified
to fire fully automatically.

"Now they had him working on an illegal
machine gun," said Gritz. "His wife told me
they didn't have a lawyer, and the
government talked them into plea
bargaining."

The resulting felony charge made Stewart
unable legally to possess a firearm, leaving
him facing a 10-year sentence for each gun
reportedly found in his home on Friday.

Gritz said Naomi Stewart told him that the
BATF threatened her with a paper
allegedly containing her signature, which
could serve as evidence that the Stewarts
were manufacturing machine guns. Mrs.
Stewart has her parents staying with her in
case the BATF decides to come back and
arrest her.

Gritz said Bob Stewart makes $144 per
gun. He praised the Maadi-Griffin as "an
awesome gun" that is made of the finest
materials and craftsmanship, yet is
affordable. He believes that combination
made it only a matter of time before the
ATF came to get Stewart.
&lt;snip&gt;

Stewart is clearly a dangerous man, not.

Rick
Are you pissed yet?
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Old June 21, 2000, 10:28 AM   #23
DorGunR
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Where is Henry Bowman when we need him?

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Old June 21, 2000, 10:55 AM   #24
Jeff Thomas
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So, I'm a little confused here. Is the BATF saying the 2nd Amendment doesn't matter, underlying statutes don't matter, and even the BATF regulations don't matter if they 'don't see a legitimate use for a gun like this'?

Have I got that right?

And, these guys are upset because they are occasionally referred to as 'F Troop' and jack-booted thugs? Now, the question is how many of these 'facts' are true.

If Stewart was truly entrapped (re: the AR15) as noted above, I'd be curious about the facts of his trial, and it will be interesting to watch this current case. To be frank, occasionally we can get excited about an individual case, and then later learn the facts are different than originally presented.

Regards from AZ

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited June 21, 2000).]
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Old June 21, 2000, 02:58 PM   #25
JimDiver
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If you recall, Feinstein is on a crusade (S. 1774) to get 50 BMG to be covered by the NFA.

I wonder if there is some connection to this BMG raid in an attempt to get some support for her bill.

BTW, I can't recall or find any crimes that have ever been commited with a BMG. Does anyone have any record of any??

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