Another drug raid gone wrong.

[Oatka]

These things comes with depressing regularity. I just wish they were as inaccurate with drug stories as they are with guns -- unfortunately, most of the time they're not.

"Denver police now acknowledge they had concerns about the warrant soon AFTER THE RAID AND SLAYING (???) [my emphasis].

"Jefferson County District Attorney Dave Thomas was appointed to investigate the issuance of the warrant and whether the shooting was justified. The FBI is determining whether Mena's civil rights were violated."
The judge who signed off should be defrocked with no pension and the officers prosecuted,
if the story is as told.
http://www.insidedenver.com/news/1219mena0.shtml

Immigrant thought cops were robbers
Housemate of slain man shocked by no-knock raid

By Hector Gutierrez
Denver Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Antonio Hernandez Tovilla thought he was under siege by robbers when six heavily armed men burst into his room.

"I was ready to tell them, 'Take my television; take my watch. I got $100 in my wallet. Take that, too. Just please let me live,"' the 22-year-old remembered.

The men had to be robbers, Hernandez thought, because he doesn't remember them shouting "Police!" or "Policia!"

"They had black masks, and you could only see their eyes," he said.

Then he heard what sounded like fireworks coming from his roommate's bedroom.

What happened in the next minutes has led to an FBI investigation, the appointment of a special prosecutor and changes in how the Denver Police Department handles no-knock raids.

The fireworks Hernandez heard actually were gunshots that killed Ismael Mena, 45, father of nine.

Denver police had obtained a warrant to search their house at 3738 High St. after a confidential informant told officers he bought $20 of crack cocaine there.

Police didn't find any drugs in the house, and the coroner didn't find any in Mena's system.

Hernandez on Saturday for the first time described what happened Sept. 29. He last saw Mena alive about noon. It was unusual to see him up at that time because Mena usually went to bed when he got home about about 8 a.m. after working a graveyard shift at the nearby Coca-Cola Bottling Co.

Mena told Hernandez he had been to Denver court that morning. He had been arrested about two weeks earlier on a concealed-weapon charge.

Mena told Hernandez that police had taken his weapon and all he had left was the box of ammunition.

"He said, 'What do I need this now for?"' Hernandez recalled.

Hernandez said the two men were in Mena's bedroom when Mena said he was so tired he just wanted to sleep.

Hernandez left Mena and returned to his bedroom, where he lay on his mattress on the floor and watched Spanish-language television. Hernandez, a native of Veracruz, Mexico, said he had a couple of hours of free time before going to work.

When he first heard a clatter downstairs, he thought it might be the others who lived in the house. Hernandez shared the house with his sister, her 2-year-old daughter, two couples and one couple's child.

Hernandez, who speaks only Spanish, could hear the intruders talking in English. He didn't know if they were speaking to him. They ran up the stairs and saw him in his room. Hernandez said as the men pointed their rifles at him, he instinctively walked backward, where he dropped on the mattress.

The "men in black," as Hernandez called them, tossed him face-first on his bed and handcuffed his hands behind his back.

A short time later everyone in his room heard gunshots from the direction of Mena's bedroom.

"I was just praying for myself, praying for my sister," Hernandez said. "I was so scared."

About 10 minutes later, the armed men escorted him outside. As he was being led away, Hernandez tried to peek into his roommate's quarters to see what had happened. He said one of the men in black pushed his head forward down the tiny hallway.

When Hernandez was led downstairs to the front yard, he finally felt relieved. He was no longer in any danger, he thought.

Why?

"Ah, because the police were outside. I saw the police cars, and I saw the police with their jackets, and it said 'POLICE' on the back," Hernandez recalled.

But then, Hernandez said, he quickly added it up. If the officers were outside waiting and walking around, they weren't there to rescue him. The firecrackers he thought he heard inside the two-story dwelling had to be live rounds.

That meant the men in black also had to be police officers.

Then one of the officers, who finally addressed him in Spanish, read Hernandez his rights and asked him, "Donde estan las drogas?" (Where are the drugs?)

"Why are you asking me this?' I don't know anything about any drugs. What's the reason you're here?" the dumbfounded immigrant asked the officer.

The officer wouldn't have any of it, Hernandez said.

"He kept asking me, 'Where are the drugs?' He kept on insisting," Hernandez said.

Another officer walked over, and the revolving door continued.

"He also asked me, 'Where are the drugs?"' Hernandez said. "I told him the same thing. 'I don't know anything about any drugs."'

The officers closed the patrol car door and left Hernandez inside the cruiser for about 30 minutes. As he sat in the vehicle, Hernandez said he saw an ambulance pull up.

He realized someone had been hit by the gunfire inside.

"I kept looking to see who they were bringing out to find out," Hernandez said.

Police then took Hernandez to their headquarters downtown. He said he felt secure again.

"I was with the police," he smiled. "I figured I was in a safe place."

Hernandez said another detective read him his rights again at headquarters. Hernandez agreed to be interviewed, and the detective taped their conversation.

The detective pressed another question about the activities in the house and whether any drugs were inside.

"I told him I never saw anyone sell any drugs in the house," Hernandez said. "We all worked. I never consumed any drugs and wouldn't want to. I even told him, 'Go ahead and take a blood test from me if you have to because I've got nothing to fear."'

The detective told Hernandez that officers were searching his house.

"If they find drugs you're going to jail. If they don't you're going home," Hernandez recalled the detective telling him.

As the investigator led Hernandez to a holding cell a couple of hours after the raid, he passed on the news. Mena was dead.

"Oh, my God," Hernandez remembered saying.

Shortly before midnight, after spending about five hours in a jail cell, Hernandez was taken home by a plainclothes Spanish-speaking officer.

"I guess they didn't find any drugs," he said.

Meanwhile, his sister, Reyna, was told by another resident about the shooting and that her brother was inside at the time.

"I didn't know who was dead and who was wounded," his pregnant sister said Saturday.

When Hernandez returned home, he didn't have a key. He walked down the street to his niece's baby sitter. It was then that his frantic sister finally found Hernandez.

The next morning the High Street residents went back home and discovered the aftermath of the police search.

Clothes and mattresses were tossed and turned and left on the floor. Walls were ripped out. Personal belongings were rummaged through. Blood was splattered on the walls and floor.

"It was a mess," Hernandez said. "My sister had two pieces of luggage, one for her clothes and one for my niece's dolls. And they just threw them all over the place."

All the residents were so scared they told the building's owner they couldn't continue to live there.

Denver police now acknowledge they had concerns about the warrant soon after the raid and slaying.

But they maintain their SWAT officers identified themselves as "police" and ''policia'' when they entered the home. They also said Mena had a handgun in his bedroom and fired more than once at SWAT members -- although his friends thought he had only one gun and police had already taken it.

Jefferson County District Attorney Dave Thomas was appointed to investigate the issuance of the warrant and whether the shooting was justified. The FBI is determining whether Mena's civil rights were violated.

Neighbors have long maintained that police went to the wrong address.

Officers on Dec. 7 raided the house next door. They arrested a 24-year-old man and a juvenile and confiscated what they said was cocaine.



------------------
The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.

[bruels]

On November 29, 1864, four hundred troops of the 3rd Colorado Volunteer Cavalry, under the command of Colonel John M. Chivington, attacked a Cheyenne indian village at Sand Creek.

More than three hundred Cheyennes were killed, a quarter were warriors. The rest were women, children, and old men.

Denver PD SWAT seems to be carrying on a fine tradition.

[12-34hom]

Yes; it's tragic that incidents like this occur, but police are human and as such make tragic mistakes like others of our species. But the inference that these men felt good about what they did and the comparision between this action and Col. Chivingtons is just plain BULL****. After this investigation takes place and if and when these men are found criminally negligent should come under the weight of what ever laws were broken under Colorado jurisdiction. But there seems to be a agenda by some to incite and inflame rather than have a rational discussion about police tactics and what went wrong in this particular incident. When we all start living in a perfect world things of this nature won't happen... and there's the rub.

[Jason Demond]

Them damn BASTARDS!!! I don't think it's right for police to be using Jack Booted Thug tactics ie. Military style.

------------------
ACCEPT NOTHING LESS THAN FULL VICTORY!"

General Dwight D. Eisenhower-- June 6,1944
------------------------

http://www.homestead.com/gunrights/G...Gunrights.html

[JimR]

12-34hom, it may not be what you meant, but what I heard (reading between the lines) was "don't be outraged, just let the system take care of this, and everyone will forget about the latest outrage in a couple of weeks." I refuse to not be outraged.

I'd like to propose the end of no-knock raids RIGHT NOW. The corollary is that I also propose the end of the War on Drugs, which has arguably been more damaging to the nation than Viet Nam ever was. The failed WOD is always reason #1 trotted out to explain: Why is there a need for no-knock raids? I say there isn't.

We hear of stories of this nature at least monthly, and from all around the nation. All kinds of LEA's are arming up and creating SWAT teams, who tend to be all dressed up with not enough to do. Anything that creates this much of this kind of behavior is worse than the disease. Drug addiction rates are not much different now than they were at the turn of the century when all this stuff was legal. The WOD is a failure, the tactics of those fighting it seem a precursor to totalitarianism (the People become inured to the sight of the State gunning down the innocent in cold blood), and the law enforcement dollars could be put to better purposes.

Making excuses for LEA's/LEO's who are too zealous to make no-knocks and not careful enough about doing their homework is not acceptable.

JimR
=============================================

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."

-- H. L. Mencken

[John/az2]

12-34hom,

What I hear you saying then is that Mena's life was worth only $20.00? Not only Mena's, but everyone else in the house at that time?

That it was worth $20.00 to partially endanger the lives of officers, and fully endanger the lives of those who lived in the house?

It was not worth watching and waiting for Mena to come out, and take him then?

I didn't think $20.00 bought that much any more. I guess it buys more than I thought it did...

------------------
John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

[Prichard]

Rational:

NO 'no-knocks'. NO property confiscation. It should lessen the amount of LEOs involved in MURDER and ROBBERY.

I don't give a d*mn if the ROBBERY is legal; it is still WRONG.

Hopefully some jobs are lost or are at least reduced to 'meter maid' status for those involved in this PROPERTY DESTRUCTION and MURDER.

[oberkommando]

Getting real tired of hearing this kinda s***. Its kinda like the stores overcharging us, you notice its almost allways correct price or more very rarely under. I wonder how this happens? It must be coincidence, yeah right!

Dont these cops have a little girls killer to apprehend? Or was that death just a mistake to.

One day an overzealous tac team will enter a house at night and be found there the next morning, and leave feet first.

"These kinds of mistakes happen" yeah well I doubt we'll hear that spin when some innocent gunowner gets raided because of some "confidential informants" made for TV info, gets half the tac team killed by him, using a real gun.
There are lots of 20round mags out there and a lot more blk tip ammo. I imagine the cops will make a real mistake eventually and wont be so none callant about their laissez' faire tactics.

Hope nobody says I sold drugs or I guess you guys will be taking about my dead ass on the next fu**** up raid, cause there aint no durgs here. Guess I will leave my life in some informants hands and hope he doesnt make up some s*** about me because he precieved me as cutting him off in traffic.



[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited December 20, 1999).]

[labgrade]

Others have said it as well (or better) than I could.

Stop the "no knocks" now!

There's nothing in anybody's house that justifys doing them other than a very small minority of crimes - say a hostage situation where an innocent's life is in immediate danger. Isn't that the sole reason one can employ lethal force against another? Cop or not?

If they suspect there's drugs in the house, they can hire a plumber, install a trap on the outflow pipe & if somebody flushes the throne, you pick it up at the end of the arrest.

These no knocks border on legal murder - too many go wrong.

& as far as the tactics, training & equipment used - sounds a little bit like military to me (even tho' they're civilian cops), I still see it as a very fine line betweeen a civi cop & a direct violation of posse comitatus.

In another thread one of us bright guys said that if you like the war on drugs, you're gonna love the war on guns.

Couldn't have said that any better either.

[Ed Brunner]

The fact that these mistakes happen is reason enough to be outraged.
There is no excuse that is acceptable.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed

[Robert the41MagFan]

The so called "Drug War" continues because it keep a unnecessary large number of law enforcement officers employed and in public view. That gives the liberals a sense of false security and give politicians a feather for that tough on crime stump speech. This is a issue that crosses party lines and is a key part of the stupidfication of Americans. American's need a drug war, OR is it politician need it more?

Robert

[labgrade]

Hey 41fan,

Where else can you get "no knock" license, RICO statutes thrown at you, property confiscation, personal liberties stripped from you (as in random vehicle searches & the like - can't wait for the random house search) & an extra 100K cops on the street? Oh & BTW, w/higher taxes, you get to pay for it.

[bruels]

Maybe Kings County, CA law enforcement is unusually strict about their drug search warrants. Those are the ones I am most familiar with. An informant's "tip" is independently corroborated by observing the house to see if there is an usual amount of traffic in and out of the house at odd hours of the day and night. The occupants of the house are observed to see if they have abnormal habits, like not going to work on a regular basis. Controlled buys of narcotics are made and documented. This takes time.

From what I have read of the shootings in Houston, TX, Compton, CA and Denver, CO, this is not taking place. If it is, why isn't it being reported the search warrant is the result of days, weeks, or months of investigation? Why is it the search warrant is the result of an informant's tip? In Houston, there wasn't even a search warrant. The worst punishment handed out was the lead officer was convicted of misdemeanor trespass.

If there is anything I learned in 17 years of law enforcement, it is that snitches often lie. The reason they are giving information is they want to profit from it.

Maybe tragic mistakes are inevitable, but it sure would easier to swallow if the assaulting officers were 100% certain they were going to find the drugs because they did their homework. And upon entering the household they found the drugs they expected to find.

Maybe the Denver officers aren't jubilant about what they did, but if no one is punished for being criminally negligent, then the inadvertent taking of a human life ranks right up there with putting a dent in the fender of your patrol car.

I've been the point man on a drug search warrant where no drugs were found. It is a queasy feeling knowing that it could have turned to ka-ka and someone could have been killed.

As I said before, cops often complain they have to make decisions in split seconds that are painfully analyzed, dissected and criticized in detail in a court room or in the media. No one seems to have much sympathy for the homeowner snatched out of his peace and reverie and frightened to the point he doesn't hear the shouts of "Police" and doesn't see the cloth badges. All he sees is strangers in black carrying guns.

If you think this is all hooey, then you haven't been reading the accounts of auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, etc. that happens when someone is in fear of their life. Massad Ayoob discusses the phenomenon much in his reports of shootings by both police and civilians.



[This message has been edited by bruels (edited December 19, 1999).]

[Futo Inu]

1234horn. I am truly glad you stick around and endure the hazing you inevitably receive here. True we need a fair balanced discussion. But I think you are way far from "getting it". It's not just guns. The poster of this thread and many others here feel that the problem is not just that mistake of the people involved in this incident (true enough there are theoretically remedies in place if errors were made), but the problem is much larger and systemic - it's entire militarization of the police forces and the tunnel vision win-at-all-costs policies when it comes to the war on drugs. The problem is not human error but it's the whole damn thing - I and other feel we flat don't need any no-knock raids for an alleged $20 crack rock from a now-obviously-misinformed informant. Some police officers, unlike you and perhaps even the majority of LEOs, feel the same way. The reason of course is becuase when implenting these gestapo policies, (A) there is a high RISK of said human error, and (B) an extraordinarily large magnitude of harm when such error is made (here, death of an innocent man). The whole system needs overhauling. I cannot relate at all to your cavalier attitude about what is to me an absolute outrage if true. No, it is most certainly is not the fault of the beat cops - as you say, mistakes can be made. It's the higher ups - the politicians, judges, sheriffs, and chiefs who create the system and make the admin. decisions, who are to blame - and the voters who continually and blindly vote these people into power.

[Robert the41MagFan]

Sheriffs, politicians and judges don't make these policies on this war on drugs, we do. We get it sold to us as a package deals every election year, Republican or Democrat. Remember 100K police from Comrade Klinton. How about minimum mandatories for drug crimes from Republican congressional leaders. Raid on Panama for what's his face. Or, today, all the money we pump into the third world for this drug war. Most of the money is used to finance right wing death squads, guess our "Final Solution" for the people south of the border. The list goes on and on.

We have failed in our own system of democracy, we were warned against the party system 200 years ago.

Robert

[labgrade]

12-34hom,
Won't compare Sand Creek. But re your "and if and when these men are found criminally negligent should come under the weight of what ever laws were broken under Colorado jurisdiction"

They won't be found negligent because they "had a tip" & they can't be sued personally. They won't be fired 'cause their l'il squealer said "oops." The city can be sued & whoop! the guy is still dead & the taxpayers would have to foot the bill anyway. Hizzoner will make a statement about how tragic & life will go on - for one less man.

I don't give a good GD if he had a bucket of the stuff. Wasn't worth a death sentence on the spot. We do (still for a while) have courts to decide that.

If you can't see that there is something dreadfully wrong with this whole episode (& that of no knocks in whole) other than "a discussion of police tactics," well, I just don't know what else to say.

You aren't a LEO are you? Say it's not so.

We do need some cool UBB code (whatever) that would make a nifty l'il' ol' flame so I could now turn mine off.

41fan, that was Noriega & we got to lose a few good men in a firefight or two - another no-knock raid writ large - costing millions of dollars after propping up the A-hole in the first place. & now, we get to pay for his "deluxe hotel room" at more expense. & did it solve a thing?

& to just take it (sorta off) topic for just a few .... I used to get to go to "a dog's breakfast" countries - you might call 'em 3rd world S#!+holes - to pull out some butthead that was meddling in sovereign country's internal affairs & got his butt in a crack. We did no-knocks there, too. Hey, no sense keeping it all to ourselves when you can spread it around the world & let everybody have a taste. In case nobody got around to saying it out loud - it ain't working.

"Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."

[This message has been edited by labgrade (edited December 20, 1999).]

[CassidyGT]

Well 12-34Hom, I hope you are never the subject of a no knock raid on the tip of a reliable informant. If they find anything questionable, expect to be arrested and any valuable property you have to be taken.
I am sure you will be very proud of the boys when they kick your legs out from under you as they cuff you while you are in your underwear.

I am sure you will feel real good and cozy with th boys when they make you and your girlfriend stand half-naked outside in the pouring rain while they trash your place.

Perhaps you will send them a thankyou card for doing such a bang-up job on you and your property 48 hours later after you are released since they 'got the wrong guy'.

Of course apologies won't be necessary. You will understand fully. They are just doing their job. Right? Going out and making the world safe by threatening deadly force on anyone suspected of having a little pot in their possession. Right?

Of course when you are paying a lawyer in a civil action against the state to reclaim the property they took from you, you will be alright with that too. I mean property forfieture and seizure is necessary for the well-being of the nation. I mean, if they get the wrong guy and financially ruin him because the stuff they took was necessary for his livlihood.... well stuff happens I guess. You won't mind.

[George Hill]

A No Knock warrent is like the Nuke off Law Enforcement tactics.
CDF and I was having a discussion about No Knocks the other day - the conversation ended without a finish.
CDF - I rest my case.
A NK Warrent is basically a War Declaration.
The Rules Of Engagement might be clear at the roll call - but get blurry when they get into the Conga line.

Like a Nuclear weapon - safties and security is of the highest order. It is a weapon designed NOT TO BE USED. When it is considered - it is only considered as the absolute END... the Final Option.
An MP5 is no FAT BOY - but on the target it has the same final results. Now - I am not saying they are not needed - to think that is to not know me. What I am saying - is that like a Nuke - Utmost consideration should be given to any actual use. I see few uses for a nuke... I see few for NK warrents on U.S. Civilians. I see some - valid instances a NK warrent should be used... But I see more instances where cleaver planning and skill could be used instead.

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
We, the people, are tired of being taxed, penalized, supervised, harassed,
and subjugated by a federal government which exceeds the powers
enumerated in the U.S. Constitution.

[12-34hom]

Gentelmen: It was not my intent to trivilize what happened here nor was it to make excuses for the officers involved in this tragic incident. Let us all wait see what happens to these officers when this investigation of this incident takes place and the results are known. The inferences to "jack booted thugs, 20 round mags, black tipped ammo, etc" saddens me to no end. What are you saying here; that you want to kill police officers? How many lives have been ruined, persons killed and or maimed over drugs such as cocaine or meth or other controlled substances? How many police officers have given there lifes on the war on drugs or other in the line of duty related matters? Was the sacrifice of thier lives for nothing? Drug dealers are a terrible blight on society, and if you sell drugs, expect what goes along with it; period.... The political ramifications that deal with this matter are far reaching. Just look at what has happened in Colombia over the last 30 years, the murders of goverment officals, judges, prosocuters, and average citizens of that country. [For nothing?] All promoted, bought and paid for by the cocaine cartels. So when we talk about tragities, look at drugs, and the epic porportions of it; boggles ones mind. To raise a white flag, and surrender to these "jack booted thugs" who sell this poison is unacceptable. If there are better answers or other alternatives lets hear them; by all means.... Happy holidays to one and all!

[This message has been edited by 12-34hom (edited December 20, 1999).]

[boing]

No-Knocks are justified by the War on Drugs which is justified by drug dealers who are a terrible blight on society.

So, what percentage of people involved in the production/distribution/consumption of alcoholic beverages are a blight on society?

By the same token, what percentage of people involved in the production/distribution/consumption of illegal drugs are a blight on society?

The answer is, a very low percentage of people in both groups are causing problems.

No War on Drugs for me, thanks. It's not worth it.

[Robert the41MagFan]

The quicker we realize that prohibition does not work, the quicker we can properly deal with this problem. Drugs, like alcohol, are a social ill. The only way to deal with this problem is to remove the criminal element from it. Spend the money on rehabilitation and prevention. Stop filling our courts and prison system with drug abusers. That system is for hard criminals. If there is no money in narcotics, there is no cartel. Kind of solves the problems down south. Saves more lives from being wasted in this tragedy. Many husbands, wives and children have died in vain fighting for something that ultimately cannot be won.

No one want to see LEO's die, they are spouses, parents and neighbors. The public is asking them to play a role that is too great a price to pay in a free society. Military tactics are unacceptable and should be abolished.

We had a situation unfold like this less than a year ago. A officer was killed doing a no knock raid. All over 50 Marijuana plants. What a waste! Waste of freedom. Waste of life.

Robert

[CassidyGT]

Drugs should be legalized. The War on Drugs has done more harm to this country than legalized drugs ever could. The social costs involved with this 'war' are immense. Lets realize that prohibition does not work. It never has and it never will.

BTW I personally do not use them. I am just being a realist.

No knock raids for mere possession of pot or coke are not justified. I personally hate the stuff, but the next 'mistake' they make could be at your house, or mine. And if a mistake is made at my house, I hope I can take a few out before they gun me down like a dog as they certainly will since I will be defending my family against what I will inevitably think are criminal intruders.

[HS]

Is it just me or was the Warrant a little too quick for a $20 cocaine sale ?
SURVEILANCE - What about SURVEILANCE ?
We get COPS & LAPD here in Aus & the lengths that LEO's go to, to get EVIDENCE of a Crime is usually LONG & EXHAUSTIVE !
I sit here shaking my head that ANYONE would go to the lengths that these LEO's did over a $20 bag of Cocaine WITHOUT surveilance.
Who's running these Depts anyway...Deputy Dawg ?

------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
E-mail [email protected]
Alternate E-mail
[email protected]

[labgrade]

"Is it just me or was the Warrant a little too quick for a $20 cocaine sale ?"

You think that's quick? There was a random stop op set up on I70 in the "north Denver" area a few back. The standard scenario the LEOs use is to have a big sign ~1/2 mile before an exit. The sign would read "random drug check in the next 4 miles" (or similar). Everybody pulling off at the first exit would be asked "can we search your vehicle?"
Those saying no would be pulled over & (so it was relayed by a few that were stopped) detained. There was a trailer fully equipped with a majistrate. Saying no was probable cause for issuing a warrant on the spot.
One of our most basic freedoms is the right of free passage. You can be pulled over for driving while black (profiling) or having long hair or (here in CO) having NM license plates on your car & driving north.
Unsettling aspects of this WoD is the continual errosion of just another freedom, a conditioning of the sheep & worse yet, it creates a schism between the good LEOs (the vast majority) & the good populace of this country; two factions that should & used to have immense respective for each other.

[Dennis]

1..4,

You are a rational person - a goal I struggle for. So, “with malice toward
none”, let me excerpt and plagiarize a portion of your post.

Before I do so, please understand I deeply understand both your viewpoint and your sense of horrible loss in the drug war. Let us begin.
-----

How many lives have been ruined, persons killed and or maimed over
drugs such as liquor, beer, or wine? How many police officers have given
their lives in the war on alcohol or others in the line of duty related
matters? Was the sacrifice of their lives for nothing? Bootleggers are a
terrible blight on society, and if you sell alcohol, expect what goes along
with it; period.... The political ramifications that deal with this matter are
far reaching. Just look at what has happened in Chicago and New York
City over the last 30 years, the murders of government officials, judges,
prosecutors, and average citizens of our country. [For nothing?] All
promoted, bought and paid for by the bootleggers. So when we talk about
tragedies, look at alcohol, and the epic proportions of it; boggles ones
mind. To raise a white flag, and surrender to these "jack booted thugs"
who sell this poison is unacceptable. If there are better answers or other
alternatives lets hear them; by all means.... Happy holidays to one and
all!
-----

All,

I am not being silly or glib here. During Prohibition, those involved with
the manufacturing, distribution, and sales of alcohol were killed by
government agents trying to enforce Prohibition in the same manner as
drug dealers are killed today. Police officers died trying to enforce
Prohibition and consumers were blinded and killed by poisoned or “bad”
alcohol.

But alcohol still was made, distributed, and consumed. There were thousands of needless deaths, thousands of destroyed lives, and
organized crime became extremely powerful and pervasive.

Virtually anything you can say about illegal drugs also can be said about
alcohol.
-----

As an EMT who helped Paramedics with “dopers” and their victims, I hate
illegal drugs. But realistically, what has our “War on Drugs” done for us?

The good:
1) By keeping drugs illegal, some kids have stayed away from drugs
because of that illegality.

The bad:
1) By keeping drugs illegal, some kids have tried drugs just for the thrill.
2) Thousands of people have died because of our drug laws:
- law enforcement officers,
- stoolies/informants,
- drug lords, their immediate subordinates, and those who manufacture,
distribute, and sell illegal drugs,
- hundreds (probably thousands) of users because of overdoses or “bad”
illegal drugs.

3) We have expended untold financial resources because of or War On
Drugs! Billions and billions of dollars not only in law enforcement but by
the military and civilian contractors. What if that money could have been
spent on cancer research or a cure for heart disease?

4) Thousands of *innocent* Americans have been hassled, injured,
maimed, and/or killed because of the War on Drugs!

5) Americans have suffered incalculable losses of freedom due to the War
On Drugs.
- Private property has been confiscated and sold to reward “drug
fighters”.
- People are becoming more afraid and distrustful of law enforcement -
and the feelings are mutual.
- Our police and our military are becoming one and the same!
- Those in our government who would subjugate us take our freedoms in
the name of the War On Drugs. Americans are voting out of fear, rather
than for what is right. Consequently, rather than the government being
the servant of the people, we are becoming the frightened servant of the
government.
-----

I hate illegal drugs at least as much as any of you. But, just like gun
control, trying to make an inanimate object illegal is doomed to failure.

While we lament the loss of those who have served, let us also lament the
loss of those who *will* die because of the well-intentioned but
doomed-to-fail, War On Drugs.

It’s time for a change.

America already has legalized drugs - alcohol is a drug. Our hypocritical,
selective, self-serving, dangerous, and (worst of all) *failed* War On
Drugs must end!

Legalize it. Control it. Punish abusers. Let’s get back to being Americans.