Asset forfeiture: the 'legal' Looting of america

[ruger45]

My enemies are those domestic or foreign who continue
to assault my countrymen.

http://www.lp.org/lpnews/0103/forfeiture.html

Asset Forfeiture: Looting America

by Jarret B. Wollstein
International Society for Individual Liberty


Police stopped 49-year-old Ethel Hylton at Houston's Hobby Airport and told her she was under arrest because a drug dog had scratched at her luggage.

Agents searched her bags and strip-searched her, but they found no drugs. They did find $39,110 in cash, money she had received from an insurance settlement and her life savings; accumulated through over 20 years of work as a hotel housekeeper and hospital janitor.

Ethel Hylton completely documented where she got the money and was never charged with a crime. But the police kept her money anyway.

Nearly four years later, she was still trying to get her money back.

Ethel Hylton is just one of a large and growing list of Americans -- now numbering in the hundreds of thousands -- who have been victimized by civil asset forfeiture. Under civil asset forfeiture, everything you own can be legally taken away even if you are never convicted of a crime.

Suspicion of offenses which, if proven in court, might result in a $200 fine or probation, are being used to justify the seizure of tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of property. Totally innocent Americans are losing their cars, homes, and businesses, based on the claims of anonymous informants that illegal transactions took place on their property. Once property is seized, it is virtually impossible to get it back.

Property is now being seized in every state and from every social group. Seizures include pocket money confiscated from public-housing residents in Florida; cars taken away from men suspected of soliciting prostitutes in Oregon; and homes taken away from ordinary, middle class Americans whose teenage children are accused of selling a few joints of marijuana. No person and no property is immune from seizure. You could be the next victim.

Here are some examples:

* In Washington, DC, police stop black men on the streets in poor areas of the city, and "routinely confiscate small amounts of cash and jewelry." Most confiscated property is not even recorded by police departments. "Resident Ben Davis calls it 'robbery with a badge.' ' [USA Today]

* In Iowa, "a woman accused of shoplifting a $25 sweater had her $18,000 car -- specially equipped for her handicapped daughter -- seized as the 'getaway vehicle.' " [USA Today]

* Detroit drug police raided a grocery store, but failed to find any drugs. After drug dogs reacted to three $1.00 bills in the cash register, the police seized $4,384 from cash registers and the store safe. According to the Pittsburgh Press, over 92% of all cash in circulation in the U.S. now shows some drug residue.

*In Monmouth, New Jersey, Dr. David Disbrow was accused of practicing psychiatry without a license. His crime was providing counseling services from a spare bedroom in his mother's house. Counseling does not require a license in New Jersey.

That didn't stop police from seizing virtually everything of value from his mother's home, totaling over $60,000. The forfeiture squad confiscated furniture, carpets, paintings, and even personal photographs.

* Kathy and Mark Schrama were arrested just before Christmas 1990 at their home in New Jersey. Kathy was charged with taking $500 worth of UPS packages from neighbors' porches. Mark was charged with receiving stolen goods. If found guilty, they might have paid a small fine and received probation.

The day after their arrest, their house, cars, and furniture were seized. Based upon mere accusation, $150,000 in property was confiscated, without trial or indictment. Police even took their clothing, eyeglasses, and Christmas presents for their 10-year-old son.

The incentive for government agencies to expand forfeiture is enormous. Agencies can easily seize property and they usually keep what they take. According to the Pittsburgh Press, 80% of seizure victims are never even charged with a crime. Law enforcement agencies often keep the best seized cars, watches, and TVs for their departments, and sell the rest.

How extensive are seizures in America today?

The Washington Post has reported that the U.S. Marshals Service alone had an inventory of over $1.4 billion in seized assets, including over 30,000 cars, boats, homes, and businesses. Federal and state agencies seizing property now include the FBI, the DEA, the U.S. Marshals Service, the Coast Guard, the IRS, local police, state highway patrols, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the FDA, and the Bureau of Land Management.

Asset forfeiture is a growth industry. Seizures have increased from $27 million in 1986 to over $644 million in 1991 to over $2 billion today.

Civil asset forfeiture defines a new standard of justice in America; or more precisely, a new standard of injustice. Under civil seizure, property, not an individual, is charged with an offense. Even if you are a totally innocent owner, the government can still confiscate your "guilty" property.

If government agents seize your property under civil asset forfeiture, you can forget about being innocent until proven guilty, due process of law, the right to an attorney, or even the right to trial. All of those rights only exist if you are charged with a criminal offense; that is, with an offense which could result in your imprisonment.

If you (or your property) are accused of a civil offense (offenses which could not result in your imprisonment), the Supreme Court has ruled that you have no presumption of innocence, no right to an attorney, and no protection from double jeopardy.

Seizure occurs when government takes away your property. Forfeiture is when legal title is permanently transferred to the state. To get seized property returned, you have to fight the full resources of your state or federal government; sometimes both!

You have to prove your property's "innocence" by documenting how you earned every cent used to pay for it. You have to prove that neither you nor any of your family members ever committed an illegal act involving the property.

To get a trial, you have to post a non-refundable "bond" of 10% of the value of your property. You have to pay attorney fees -- ranging from $5,000 to over $100,000 -- out of your own pocket. Money you pay your attorney is also subject to seizure (either before or after the trial) if the government alleges that those funds were "tainted." And you may be forced to go through trial after trial, because under civil seizure, the Constitutional protection against "double jeopardy" doesn't apply.

Once your property is seized, expect to spend years fighting government agencies and expect to be impoverished by legal fees -- with no guarantee of winning -- while the government keeps your car, home, and bank account.

In fact, in a recent Supreme Court decision (Bennis v. Michigan), the Court said explicitly that innocent owners can be deprived of their property if it is used to facilitate a crime, even without the owner's knowledge or consent. That means you can now lose your home or business because of the action of employees, relatives, or guests, over whom you have absolutely no control.

Not only do police and prosecutors have the power to seize anything you own on the slightest pretext, they also have the incentive. The dirty little secret of the forfeiture racket is that police, prosecutors, and judges can benefit personally by stealing your property.

Brenda Grantland -- America's leading asset forfeiture defense attorney -- gives these examples of government greed in her book Your House Is Under Arrest.

* Suffolk County, New York. District Attorney James M. Catterton drives around in a BMW 735I that was seized from an alleged drug dealer. He spent $3,412 from the forfeiture fund for mechanical and body work, including $75 for pin-striping.

*Warren County, New Jersey. The assistant chief prosecutor drives a confiscated yellow Corvette.

*Little Compton, Rhode Island. The seven-member police force received $3.8 million from the federal forfeiture fund, and spent it on such things as a new 23-foot boat with trailer and new Pontiac Firebirds.

But that's just the tip of the iceberg. The head of one Los Angeles police forfeiture squad claims his group personally pocketed over $60 million in seized property.

Why do our courts tolerate these outrageous legalized thefts? Because they get their cut. It's completely legal for confiscated property to be used by police, prosecutors, and judges, so long as it's for official business. In 1996, a federal district court even ruled that police can personally receive 25% of the value of any confiscated home, car, or business.

In Malibu, California, park police tried repeatedly to buy the home and land of 61-year-old retired rancher Don Scott, which was next to national park land. Scott refused.

On the morning of October 2, 1992, a task force of 26 LA county sheriffs, DEA agents, and other cops broke into Scott's living room unannounced. When he heard his wife, Frances, scream, he came out of his upstairs bedroom with a gun over his head. Police yelled at him to lower his gun. He did, and they shot him dead.

Police claimed to be searching for marijuana, which they never found. Ventura County DA Michael Bradbury concluded that the raid was "motivated at least in part by a desire to seize and forfeit the ranch for the government...[The] search warrant became Donald Scott's death warrant."

As police confiscations become more and more outrageous, opposition has been mounting. California and several other states defeated draconian forfeiture laws a few years ago, and the Supreme Court rendered several hopeful decisions. In 2000, Congress passed what author James Bovard described as a "largely hollow reform measure" that left the playing field "heavily tilted in the government's favor."

No wonder, then, that federal, state, and local governments are again expanding confiscation with little concern for justice. The latest targets: Doctors who resist government-controlled medicine...Businesses that employ illegal aliens (who sew most clothing and harvest many crops)...and gun owners.

Anything you own now can be seized at any time. Every week over 5,000 innocent Americans like you now lose their cars, bank accounts, homes, or businesses, without ever being charged with a crime.

What can you do to protect yourself? Read books like Brenda Grantland's Your House Is Under Arrest. Demand of your representatives why they're voting for these outrageous laws. Speak out on talk radio, through letters, newspaper editorials, and Internet forums.

Contribute to groups that are fighting police confiscation, like the International Society for Individual Liberty, the Libertarian Party, and Forfeiture Endangers American Rights (FEAR).

The fight against civil asset forfeiture is a battle for your freedom and property. If confiscation isn't stopped, liberty and justice will soon be fading memories. Help stop the looting of America now, before it's too late.

* For more information about forfeiture, contact: Forfeiture Endangers American Rights. Call: (888) FEAR-001 (332-7001). Write: P.0. Box 33985, Washington, DC 20033-3985. Visit: http://www.fear.org.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jarret B. Wollstein is a member of the International Society for Individual Liberty's Board of Directors and a founder of the original Society for Individual Liberty. This essay is reprinted with permission, and is available in brochure form from ISIL. Call: (707) 746-8796. Or visit: http://www.isil.org.


« News & Features

I still may not know what Im talking about or have a 'grasp'
of the situation but Im feeling less paranoid all the time.
Pround member of
http://www.ccops.org

[LawDog]

Okay, I've read the article twice now, and I don't see any legal issues concerning the Second Amendment to the US Constituition, or the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in general, mentioned in it anywhere.

The first hint of rancor in this thread and it goes Lights Out.

LawDog

[mrat]

"In 1996, a federal district court even ruled that police can personally receive 25% of the value of any confiscated home, car, or business."

I have been an LEO for over eleven years and I have never received anything personally from asset fofeiture. I have obviously been getting screwed. I am pissed, who do I register my complaint with?

[IamNOTaNUT]

mrat are you sure? Do you mean to tell me that the police can keep a percentage of the money they get from illegal seizures. Crap! That means that all those times I violated people's rights, just because I didn't have anything better to do, I could have been MAKIN' MONEY!

As for the article, uh, well never mind. Some peple really do believe everything they read. It just reinforces a personally held belief that if you walk around all day looking for a reason to get PO'd, you will find one. Same thing for conspiracies.

Sorry guys, I just don't buy it and, as LawDog has pointed out, it has nothing to do with firearms.

[Tamara]

Gentlemen,

To state that the asset forfeiture problem does not exist because it doesn't occur in your jurisdiction, happen on your watch, or corrupt your department is as illogical as me telling TFL posters from California that they are wrong about "Assault Weapon Bans" because I can walk into any gun shop in Tennessee and buy a pre-ban AR or accusing an NYC-dweller that his complaints about the unavailability of handguns or CCW permits is absurd because they were readily available in Atlanta.

The laws are a matter of public record, as are the specific cases, you may look them up, and to state otherwise is denial in its simplest form. I am far from being anti-LEO. I have friends who are police officers. I have one friend too many on the Officer Down Memorial Page. The actions of some officers in some jurisdictions are tarnishing the memory of my friend and the reputations of many more. This should infuriate honest, dedicated peace officers such as yourselves.

Please don't think that you are being tarred with a broad brush; if it weren't for the basic integrity of most cops, the rotten foundations of some of these shortsighted laws that have been passed in the name of "doing something about the problem" would have our country in a far worse mess than it is. I appreciate the efforts of you gentlemen on the Thin Blue Line more than you know, and count upon you to be as much of a shield against misguided laws that destroy my civil rights as you are against those who would do me harm.

T.

PS Oh, and the firearms tie-in: these laws can be invoked against any percieved "criminal enterprise". Have more guns or reloading supplies than some grandstanding, overzealous, vote-hungry DA or politically minded US attorney or BATF agent thinks are necessary for your personal use? Perhaps you are engaged in a gunrunning or illicit ammunition-manufacturing business. Good-bye house that the stuff was in! Due to the nature of the asset forfeiture laws, the entire presumption of innocence until guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt goes out the window. Just think about it and study the law and the cases. I trust your consciences implicitly, gentlemen. Thank you for your time.

[ruger45]

Countless posts have been put here about the criminal
actions of civillians.When it came time to punish such ones
or such ones as a group were referred to with much
ill will or bitterness from this and other groups...
the civillians on this board did not seem to get offended.
Now some politicians would say many of us are like them
because of what a few of us would do if they ever did come to take our weapons after they passed a new law.Because I am not a sheep that would lay down and let it happen I dont view them that way.
But we continue to comment how the actions of such make it hard on the rest and the great lack of justice or discipline
administered when they actually do catch such persons.

AS far as confiscating property being related to firearms
that point was so obvious to me I wouldnt have brough it
out or should I say the possession of suddenly 'illegal'firarms but Tamara certainly did eloquently.I guess it would be easier and certainly less controversial to say its only politicians,federal officers and civillians that aid in
the downward slope of our civil rights.
I wont post any more about property seizure's that arent
directly firearms related my apologies moderater's.




"Please don't think that you are being tarred with a broad brush; if it weren't for the basic integrity of most cops, the rotten foundations of some of these shortsighted laws that have been passed in the name of "doing something about the problem" would have our country in a far worse mess than it is. "!!!!!!
Repeating for emphasis.The lack of corruption in many area's
like my own tell a nice tale about the virtue of many officers.
But at the same time the sometimes vigorous participation by officers in things like 'buy back' programs
paints a rather negative picture.
Are you saying pass over these because they are negative?

Should civillians not at all work to discourage such activities by officers or speak out with our dissapproval
toward them because the state had granted them 'the authority'?

I can only hope these question dont come across with bitterness.
Maybe you LEO's can tell me what feelings you have as you
witness a senseless buy back program or similar.
Mrat,Imnotanut?

[Steel]

This is one of the biggest unknown problems with America. There is a far too extensive history of police corruption in the area of property forfeiture. I just recently wrote my Texas senators to urgently request they look into it. I suggest that TFL's do the same.

[John/az2]

I just recently heard about an agent that was on the raiding party of Specialty Firearms in Mesa, Arizona that is now using one of the "confiscated" firearms at one of the local ranges on a regular basis.

I personally believe that this article is quite pertainant to the 2nd Amendment even though it may not mention it directly.

And a complete ditto to what Tamara has expressed.

[RickD]

This needs to be posted in its entirety over at the CopTalk forum at http://www.glocktalk.com . There are several LEOs who are in denial over there. Other forums could benefit as well.

If one of you doesn't post it, I will. I'll give you a few days.

Rick

[mrat]

Tamara,
I am not denying that asset forfeiture does not occur nor did I state that in my response. My smart a$$ response was a comment on what I felt was some BS in this article ruger45 posted. I find it very hard to believe that a court ruled that LEOs are allowed to PERSONALLY keep a portion of confiscated property. I noticed that no court case was cited. I admit that my response was a knee jerk comment. I am tired of LEOs being the favorite whipping boy of some people on gun boards. Kind of like gun how we gun owners get tired of the media doing it.



The LEOs that post here are aware of the problems in the system and by our nature of us being here probably means we are the good guys. I am not sure what you guys expect the LEOs here to do about asset forfeiture or buybacks, etc. Some of you guys act like we have power over things. These things get posted here and the LEOs here get beaten over the head with it. We have less of a voice than you do. We cannot publicly criticize our employers or we will loose our jobs which equals the LEOs who belive in the rights of citizens will be FIRED. You will be left with the LEOs that view themselves as an occupying force. Will this help anything? Enough is enough!

[IamNOTaNUT]

Tamara, from reading your many posts I find you to be an articulate, well reasoned, and humurous individual. I take no offense with your position.

It is just that sooooo many people will believe the crap that is spewed forth such as the articles above. I know there are places where this type of corruption occur, I have heard of Los Angeles, New York, etc. However, there are more myths floating around the web due to incorrect news reporting, unattributed "facts" and outright lies in an effort to elicit support for the group who oppose any police action than there are actual corrupt cops run amok. Isn't this the same type of technique the anti's use to spread fear, hate and discontent?

When I read of such corruption in the LE journals or other reputable source I too get enraged. And if any of my officers tried a similar stunt I would come unglued. I am not of the "protect your brother officer at any and all cost" ilk. Quite the contrary, I believe police should be held to a higher standard and should police themselves to weed out those people who whould abuse their power.

As far as the example another poster used regarding too much ammunition, etc. I don't have to worry about that. The laws in my state are fairly restrictive with regards to asset seizure, perhaps that is not the case in California. Isn't that the same state that other branches of the government abuse their powers, like their legislature and their courts?

Anyhow, I was merely trying to point out most of these posts tend to be specuous at best, and should not be taken as the gospel truth.

Ruger45 - Buy Back Programs

This is a different animal entirely and cannot be characterized as governmental seizure of property if the lemmings willingly take their grandpa's original SAA to the local PD to turn it in for a $50 voucher good at the nearest Foot Locker.

The short answeer is no, I don't support them and I don't know anyone else who does. But as long as no public tax dollars are used to fund such nonsense, let them knock themselves out.

[Willy]

State laws may be restrictive. Here is what happens when they are. The local law enforcement calls in a federal law enforcement officer, who then makes the seizure. Now the state laws don't apply. Then a large portion of the money is kicked back to the local law enforcement.

There is something bad wrong when law enforcement has a financial incentive to seize property, and are allowed to do so without any finding of guilt. For many agencies, for every seizure they get money off the budget that they can spend on things like new patrol cars. The controlling government/municipality likes it because they don't have to give the department as much money in their budget.

As far as I remember this started with the war on drugs. I recall yahcts being seized because a crew member would have a small amount of drugs on them. Now New York wants to seize your car if you are PULLED OVER for reckless driving, not convicted. So the donut I did in the snowy intersection, in the middle of the night, in a subdivision with no one around, in highschool, in my father's truck, that at the time go me a $75 ticket, would now cost my father his truck. And you don't even have to be convicted. Nice.

[Zander]

"I am tired of LEOs being the favorite whipping boy of some people on gun boards." -- mrat

And I'm tired of blanket denials before the bytes are dry on the screen.

Asset seizure/forfeiture is a huge problem; I've had my own property taken...and it was a firearm given to me by my father. It was stolen from me and used in a crime; five years after the deposition of the case, the asst. DA still refuses to order it returned to me. Where it is being held, there are more than 10,000 [nope, not a misprint] other firearms awaiting doomsday, although state law says that seized firearms should be returned to their rightful owners or sold to raise money for state coffers. They are spending tax dollars to destroy the legally-owned private property of the taxpayers...and telling us to f-off while they do it.

In the community where I live, one officer from the tiny force patrols a short section of the nearby interstate with a newly-acquired drug dog. Why, when a federally-funded drug task force patrols the same interstate just two miles away?!?

Because one big seizure will put lots of money in the community's fund and more than pay back the expense for the K-9 unit's acquisition and training. It's the same sort of mentality involved in hiring an additional officer for the force and then having the city council double the fine for every moving violation on the books.

Now, I don't feel compelled to list my ~bona fides~ on this subject, but I will:

I, and all my siblings save one, served in the military; two have had careers in law enforcement. One, in fact, was safety director [with responsibility for all police and fire services] in the very city where Tamara now lives.

I've seen my share of bad cops, but they were a tiny minority of the forces that employed them. IMO, you do yourself and your credibility a disservice by automatically assuming you are being smeared by such information as was posted here, whether or not the majority of it is true.

"We cannot publicly criticize our employers or we will loose our jobs which equals the LEOs who belive in the rights of citizens will be FIRED."

You've just confirmed the worst fears of the cop-haters.
If you're as honest as I think you are, perhaps you ought to look for another line of work.

Either that or get used to our legitimate complaints of 4th Amendment violations, because we're not going to shut up about them.

Finally, lest there be any further misunderstanding on your part, I greatly respect you for what you do...it's a nasty job and you probably don't get paid a lot to do it.

For that, you have my thanks, too.

[RickD]

"It is just that sooooo many people will believe the crap that is spewed forth such as the articles above."

I have it first-hand, from the victim.

1) The owner of Thunderbird Cartridge. He was arrested by the BATF on some weapons charge. This was his second such entanglement with the BATF. And his second victory in court. Even though he was found not guilty, the feds auctioned off his car before the trial.

He went to the auction to bid on his vehicle. His was the winning bid at something over $1,000. The feds refused to allow him to take it. Instead, they had two BATF agents engage in their own private secret bid. Surprise upon surprise. Both agents tied at $750 each. They flipped a coin and one agent drove away in his new car.

You can verify this by getting the contact straight from the horse's mouth.

http://www.quikpage.com/T/tcci/

Thunderbird Cartridge
PO Box 302
Phx, Az 85001
602-237-3823
Fax: 602-237-3858

The next is a test case.
2) Jerry Michaels of "Specialty Firearms"

Since Jerry got $300,000 worth of his guns thrown in trash cans by BATF agents, (he has still not been charged) supposedly for not having a $100 pawn license that he didn't need from the City of Mesa, Arizona, do you think he will get his guns back witout a fight? If at all?

Rick

[jimbrassell]

OK, here's my two cents worth. First, I'm an ex-cop. Where I worked, racial profiling was a joke. I watched, in silence I'm ashamed to say, as a young black kid, 26 years old who had recently re-enlisted for six years had his re-enlistment bonus taken as 'potential drug money' after he was stopped because he was black ... no PC other than he fit the profile ... and had a wad of cash on him. That's wrong! He only got his money back 17 months later after he made a 'donation' to the local PBA chapter. And mrat and LawDog, it does relate to the 2nd Amendment ... or haven't you been paying attention. The rather stupid gentlemen in Kalifornia who had a 'few weapons laying around' is a perfect example. If my neighbors complain about my testing handloads at odd hours of the day or night and I get raided, I could be in trouble. No one, repeat no one, has the right to take property when the individual who owns the property is not found guilty by twelve of his or her peers for an infraction which is clearly established in the law. At least that's what I understand the Constitution and Bill of Rights says.

I love cops ... if I saw one on the side of the highway in trouble I'd stop in a minute. But I won't have one of the boys in blue kicking in my front door and trying to take my guns because Fienstein (sp) said they could. Nor will I approve of the current situation regarding confiscation of property. IT AIN'T RIGHT!

[RHC]

I have no personal experience in this area,
so I will not express an opinion, but I
would encourage you to read the series in the
Kansas City Star (kcstar.com) on forfeiture.

And here's an old law that you might find of interest:

The Code of Hammurabi allowed the accuser who won
his case in court to seize all the property of the
accused.

[SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI]

These "asset forfeiture" laws are blatantly in violation of our 4th Amendment rights. It is confiscation without even any pretext of due process. This is a plainly unlawful abuse of power and why these laws have not been vigorously and vehemently challenged in the courts is beyond me. How the victims of these abuses cope with it is something I wonder about. Imagine if this happened to any one of you. Some government agency confiscates and sells off your property even though you were only suspected but never convicted of any crime. Would anger and outrage even come close to what you would feel? How could anyone with even a hint of a backbone take it? I don't know what an appropriate response would be, but being the hothead I am I would be beside myself with rage. God help me but I would probably be looking for someone responsible to kill. Not a terribly smart response but I don't see how I could control myself under those circumstances.

[Tshoes]

Can't............
Guy's....LEO's...I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for you, and the tough dangerous jobs you do.
That said...........

Denial.....is NOT a river in Egypt.

Some people choose to live like Mushrooms.....IN the dark.....

The facts are IN, these case happen EVERY single day..and are on the upswing.

FACT, your Bank...you know the one you use for checking, savings, etc???

They are told to report "any", suspicious transactions you may make......deposits, withdrawals.

You are/ have been profiled...by your normal banking habits.
IF you deviate from these patterns.....your local teller, HAS been instructed to call the local "authorities", and let them know of "ANY", suspicious behavior......

With a check, and a confiscation, and conviction.....the INFORMANT gets 25% of whatever is seized.......IS this sounding VAUGELY familiar???.

If you deposit $1,500.00....or more, you can be a SUSPECT.......if you deposit the same..out of the norm.....you can be a suspect..

If you remove $, 2,500.00 in four transactions over a years time.... guess what??... you just became a felon......or any series of w/d's amounting to 10K........

It's called "Structuring".

You see, your are a criminal...cause you want your money......and you have just gone around the 10K mandatory reporting law.

What's this to do with the 2nd Amendment???.......Plenty..this has got to stop.

How you gonna stop it??.....if you are a subject, forget it....if you are a citizen.......you have a chance.

EVERYTHING said in the above post's are true, and more is going on than you will ever realize.....

Please do not take this as personal...it's not....the old adage..."If the shoe fits, wear it". applies here.........

If your foot hasn't been in the shoe, don't take it personally...just please be aware of the fact, that this is going on............

And thank you for your service, and sacrifices...

[Good Guy]

Originally posted by Tshoes:
If you remove $, 2,500.00 in four transactions over a years time.... guess what??... you just became a felon......or any series of w/d's amounting to 10K........

Sorry, but it just ain't so. Financial institutions are required to report transactions of 10g or more, but if I/you legitamitely withdraw 10g in fractions, I/you are NOT committing a felony.

[mrat]

Apparently I did not make myself clear, for the second time:
I NEVER DENIED THAT ASSET FORFEITURE OCCURS!
Please read my last post before saying I am in denial, etc.
You guys continue to prove my point about LEOs being the "favorite whipping boy". You guys don't even read what we are saying and immediatly go to criticizing.

jimbrassel,
I don't think you have been paying attention. I never said anything about this having to do with the 2nd ammendment or not having to do with it.

[madison46]

legal arguments that allow this to occur? Seem a very clear violation of due process - hands down.

Last I heard, it was being upheld on some common law BS.

madison46

[Hal]

madison46,
http://www.fear.org goes into the details of how asset forfeiture laws *work*.

Asset forfeiture laws might be a violation of the 4th amendment, but there's no doubt they are a clear violation of the 5th amendment.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a
Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or
public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be
compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due
process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

No amount of leaglese doublespeak can explain what the last line of that amendment clearly says.

[LawDog]

And mrat and LawDog, it does relate to the 2nd Amendment ... or haven't you been paying attention. The rather stupid gentlemen in Kalifornia who had a 'few weapons laying around' is a perfect example.

That was asset forfeiture/civil law? Bloody hell, I thought it was a search warrant/criminal law.

LawDog

[Marko Kloos]

Does ANYONE have the
legal arguments that allow this to occur? Seem a very clear violation of due process - hands down.

Last I heard, it was being upheld on some common law BS.

Nope, it's being upheld because of an important technicality: they don't charge you with a crime, they charge your property, and property has no due process rights according to Constitution and the USSC. They came up with the concept of "criminal property" a few hundred years ago to fight smugglers off the coast of Florida in the fiscal arena, and now it gets applied to the cash in your pocket if the circumstances are just so.

I think there is a monumental conflict of interest when an arresting agency gets an incentive to confiscate assets. Yes, many LE agencies deserve new equipment and better pay, but there is just too much room for abuse here. And the abuse is well documented, not just a fantasy of liberal cop-hating "ACLU types".

[RHC]

Just as a matter of trivia, the idea of
criminal property is not new.
They used to hang pigs and horses in the
middle ages if they hurt someone.