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Old September 23, 2001, 07:57 PM   #1
TVDean
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44 Magnum load for dangerous animals?

I've moved to NE Washington near the Idaho border. I hear there are Grizzlys as well as Moose roaming these mountains.

I figure very soon I'll get the scoop on some great flyfishing streams and I'm sure this will put me in the domain of these deadly mamals.

My protection: I found a New-in-box S&W 629-4 Mountain Gun in 44 Mag. ($525), and need a load for it.

The load I've got my eye on is CB's 300 JSP@ 1300fps. will the gun handle this hotter stuff from Cor-Bon?
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Old September 23, 2001, 08:07 PM   #2
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Well, both Garrett and Buffalo Bore loads would work, but they're marked for Ruger revolvers only. That Cor-bon ammo looks pretty good.

Not much help, am I.
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Old September 23, 2001, 08:30 PM   #3
Mark C. Kimmell
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If you are stuck with factory ammo I would say Car-Bon 305 penetrater load,Fed. 300gr. Cast-Core hunting ammo and Garret Cartridges. I load a 320gr.WFNGC LBT from Cast Performance traveling 1300fps. in my 7-1/2" Ruger Super Redhawk 44mag. I would use a good hard cast gas check bullet for penetration to go through heavy bone and mass. Mark
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Old September 23, 2001, 08:53 PM   #4
arnie
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The October 2001 issue of Handloader magazine had two articles on this subject. Bottom line was that most bear attacks are unexpected, and from close quarters and the shooter has about 2 seconds or less to react, so a handgun probably won't be effective. But they recommended a heavy cast bullet for penetration for the rare times a handgun can be put in use in time. A .44 magnum, and for that matter virtually any handgun caliber, is marginal, but may be better than nothing. You probably will want to practice with light .44 Special loads. Shooting full-power .44 magnum loads in a light mountain Gun won't be much fun. Pepper spray may be more effective than a handgun.
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Old September 23, 2001, 08:53 PM   #5
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I'd say use whichever 300gr or heavier @ 1200+ is most accurate in your revolver. Corbons is good, Garrett makes a very powerful Ruger only 44 load but does have "light" (if you can call a 310gr @ 1300+ light) load for all 44 magnums. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

The Mountain gun will handle the loads fine, better than your hand will most likely. The ability to handle the heavier loads was part of the endurance package that S&W built into their N frames in the late 80's.
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Old September 23, 2001, 09:24 PM   #6
dewey
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SHOOTIN' HIGH

Having abused and amused myself with some stout .44 loads in my Mountain gun those heavy 300grain loads are goin' shoot HIGH...like 10 inches at 25 yards. But that'll be a moot point as the bear will have your arm in it's mouth by the time you can pull the trigger.

The Handloader should be required reading for all people who venture out in bear country. AVOIDANCE is the only defense it seems. STAY SAFE !...dewey
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Old September 23, 2001, 09:54 PM   #7
TVDean
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It's good to see the gun will handle the hot stuff even though it'll hurt my hand. Even the hottest 44 Mag shouldn't get close to the recoil impulse of the Tauras .454 I shot a few months back. That's absolutely insane!

I appreciate the honesty about how underpowered the 44 Mag is against Grizzlys. I suppose a large bottle of jalapeno spray would be a good thing to have also. Although, I did see a program on TV where a guy sprayed the ground with pepper spray, then watched in awe as a big griz came by and started rolling around in the strange smelling stuff.

The opinion of the host was that whan bears are sprayed with the stuff, the hiss of the pressurized chemical more startles the bear than anything, so they retreat.

Oh well, I load a bone crunching bullet and hope for the best.

Thanks.
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Old September 23, 2001, 10:12 PM   #8
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Rifle/revolver combo

Somewhat off topic to this thread, but.....

Since you are in grizzley country, have you thought of investing in a rifle? The Ruger .44 magnum rifles (choices of semi-auto, bolt action, or lever action) would offer you the capability to use the same ammo in your rifle and revolver. The advantages of the rifle is longer sight radius, reduced recoil, and better velocities. Should your .44 magnum rifle jam or break, THEN you could go to your backup revolver. Just a thought.
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Old September 23, 2001, 11:22 PM   #9
Dr.Rob
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I prefer a 240 gr winchester soft point for my 44 mag. It has a wide metplat and (relatively) low cost compared to those "ruger only" custom offerings and cor-bon hyper loads. Its velocity is only about 1200fps, but that's still nothing to scoff at. In heavy calibers you want penetration so avoid the hollowpoints altogether. "Hunting loads" that offer controlled expansion or hard cast swc work well. However that "hardcast" stuff will lead your barrel over time, so buy a good lead remover.

Your Smith is NOT a Ruger, essentially what most of these loads attempt to do is make your 44 mag a 44mag+p or +p+ etc. Rather than risk breaking your gun, shoot stuff that is within saami specs and live with it, or get a bigger gun.

That corbon load sounds mighty hot to me.
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Old September 23, 2001, 11:41 PM   #10
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The Federal 300 Grain SWC or Handloaded equivelent is perfectly safe in a S&W.

1200 FPS 300 Grain SWC recipe: 20 Grains 2400 and magnum primer and crimp the hell out of them.

Despite lore a 300 Grain load does not kick that much more than a 240 grain load.
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Old September 24, 2001, 12:29 AM   #11
Robert the41MagFan
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Funny, if you go to Randy Garrett's trophy room, that huge bear was taken with Garrett's ammunition and a mountain gun, so the story goes. Gun is not going to break, bend or blow up. Only thing that gets hurt are Ruger owners feelings when they see the superiority of their chunky fugly (that's f*ing ugly for those that don't understand my slang) guns fade away.

TVDean, your mountain gun will work fine with the ammunition you have mentioned and will do the job on any game that roams on this continent.

Robert
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Old September 24, 2001, 04:58 AM   #12
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Let me put it another way.. I've seen a guy (my dad) play that 300 gr rbated crimp game and literally UNSCREW the barrel of his Blackhawk Hunter.. at what Point does it get unsafe? At what point does it get too expensive?

Those "hammerheads" aren't cheap. Learning to shoot that new gun with those hammerheads or corbons.. wow you must make a lot more money than me.

Just trying to be economical.
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Old September 24, 2001, 06:09 AM   #13
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FORGIVE ME (BLOWING MY OWN HORN)

I have a MountainGun-specific 'big-biter' load; 280g WFNGC at approximately 1200fps.
Heavy recoil, excellent accuracy, customer tested.
And expensive.
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Old September 24, 2001, 10:44 AM   #14
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Weshoot2, is that 1,200 fps from the 4" gun? It sounds just like what TVDean would be looking for.
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Old September 24, 2001, 11:41 AM   #15
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Look, for a handgun, 44 mag is as good as it gets.

Unless, you go 45-70 in this . . .



I hunt deer and turkey up near Colville WA right in your area and have never seen a Grizzly. And I've hiked in deep through private land right up to the Canadian border with a couple of hunting parties. We've heard the bellows of a moose once, seen moose scrapings on trees and seen moose scat several times. They are around.

Most likely, mountain lions and cougars are the dangerous game you'll run into other than a horny pissed off gobbler who can't raise a harem during the Spring.

To be safe, buy your Dillon 550 press.

Buy some new Starline 44 mag cases, a max load of 19.0 grains of Hodgdon's H110, some magnum primers, some 300 grain Laser Cast truncated cone hard cast lead bullets and you can do 1400 fps. Giving you a good 1,200 + fpe and plenty of penetration to break bones and damage vital organs.

And try to run uphill as you shoot. use their weight against them. Downhill and they roll over on top of you.

You've got to reload for 44 mag anyway unless you'd like to pay $540 retail box by box for a case at your local gun range ($25/box plus 8% tax).

You'll never shoot it well enough unless you do!

Carry your 44 mag.

And tie some bells onto your clothes and call Dept of Wildlife and ask locals about any "animal" sightings and you should be fine.

And a friend with a 45-70 guide rifle would be nice too.
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Old September 24, 2001, 12:30 PM   #16
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Here is a story that ran in yesterdays Anchorage Daily News (www.adn.com). Note the speed of the attack. Sorry to paste the whole thing in, but this paper quickly archives stories and a link would only be good for a day or so.

Oops - I have to chop sections to reduce story to 1000 characters before I can post it.... Sorry.


Grizzly attack
Hunting partners' bonds tighten as North Pole man struggles to save his badly mauled friend


By Jan Thacker
Daily News Correspondent

(Published: September 23, 2001)
North Pole Time has begun to heal the patchwork quilt of stitches that laced Johnny McCoy's scalp and arms back together, but hunting buddy Gary Corle can still hear the agony of McCoy's screams and the crunch of his bones breaking in the jaws of a grizzly bear several weeks ago.

Doctors needed more than 1,000 stitches to sew up McCoy.

The bear that tried to tear off his head peeled away one of his ears and much of his scalp. It broke both of his arms. It ripped loose an eye.

The 57-year-old Corle, who was run over by the bear before it attacked McCoy, has his own frightening memories. Since the Sept. 4 attack, he's found it difficult to sleep.

"When you stand there face to face with a bear like that, your whole life goes before you and you think you're probably going to end right there," he said. "You're going to go to heaven and be with Jesus."

I THOUGHT SHE WAS GOING TO KILL HIM'

After landing on a Delta River tributary, they began scouting for moose and marking trails to their camp.

"We'd walked the river a mile or so up and then went into the woods, looking for landmarks to remember," said Corle, who remembers first hunting this area of willows and beaver ponds in 1973.

It was early in the morning, and the day showed promise of being another gray one. The men saw bear scat, but paid it no more attention than normal. Corle suggested the berry crop had been good, noting some of the droppings looked like "blueberry pancakes."

The men hiked together until McCoy had to make a rest stop. Corle said he'd keep going slowly, flagging the trail as he went. Minutes later, McCoy was back on that trail, hurrying to catch his hunting buddy.

Just as he caught sight of Corle, he said, he saw a sow grizzly charging from his friend's left with two small cubs in tow. McCoy threw up his gun to shoot, but almost instantly Corle and the sow were one.

"I saw that bear and didn't even have time to alert Gary," McCoy said. "I thought she was going to kill him. I took my gun but couldn't fire without hitting Gary."

Corle was taken completely by surprise.

"I heard something behind me and the first thing that came to my mind was that it was Johnny," he said. "I turned my head toward the sound and looked and it was the darnedest thing I ever saw, a big ole grizzly bear and that sucker was coming full bore toward me."

The grizzly bowled into Corle, knocking him face first into a thick clump of brush. He landed belly down. The backpack he was wearing tangled in the vegetation, which was probably a good thing because the bear jumped on top of his back and began to pummel him.

"I couldn't get off my belly to get turned around," he said. "My whole life came before me. I just pictured her leaving me in pieces and me dying."

At some point, Corle remembers, he managed to get turned around far enough to jam his rifle into thick brown fur. He pulled the trigger. He doesn't know if a bullet hit the bear. He does know that she suddenly let go.

"It was just like a wind blew her away," Corle said. "Boom -- and she was gone. I figured she was laying there dead.

"But she wasn't and a few seconds later I heard the most agonizing scream I ever heard. I never heard a man holler like that. Johnny was literally being torn to pieces. They were 10 yards away and the bear was slashing him. I could hear her tearing his flesh."

Corle wanted to shoot the bear off his buddy, but everything was a blurred frenzy. Corle feared hitting McCoy with a bullet from the .30-06.

And then the attack was over.

The men don't think it could have lasted longer than seconds, though McCoy remembers every tick as an eternity.

"She was a demon from hell," he said. "Just like a mad dog. The power of her mouth and teeth were amazing. I'll never forget that. It was like everything was teeth."

The bear bit through his arms and shoulder. He could feel the bones crushing.

Her teeth around one arm, the bear shook him viciously. She chewed his hand. She bit his head.

As McCoy tried to fend her off with his .300-caliber Winchester Magnum rifle, he ground her teeth into the metal of the barrel.

"I could feel her trying to grab hold of my whole head," McCoy said. "I kept thinking, this isn't happening to me. This isn't happening to me.' "

By the end, he was simply playing dead, hoping the attack would end before he died, believing that "if I moved one foot she'd finish me off."

Then it was over. McCoy was left lying on his back. The bear glanced at him. He looked back. Then the bear tossed a quick glance at Corle and fled. There was no time to shoot.

Corle thought about going after the bear, but looked at his friend and was horrified by what he saw.

"He was in bad shape," Corle said. "His ear was under his chin and his eyeball was out of his head. He was bleeding everywhere. Everything was covered in blood. He was laying there in agonizing pain."

Corle knew he didn't have time to waste worrying about it. McCoy needed immediate first aid. Corle took off McCoy's backpack and started reassuring his hunting partner.

"I told him he'd be OK," Corle said, "that I was there and I would take care of him."

After he checked both rifles to make sure they were ready in case the bear came back, he pulled bundles of game bags -- ideal for bandaging -- from the backpacks.

"That ear bothered me more than anything," Corle said, "and his scalp was laid open to his skull. Blood was dripping off his hand and arm."

Corle immediately went to work. First he pushed McCoy's ear and scalp back in place. Then he wound game bags under McCoy's chin and over his head. He replaced the eyeball as best he could before wrapping a bandage over it and around the top of McCoy's head.

"I tied it tight to stop the bleeding," he said.

Because of excruciating pain, McCoy wouldn't let Corle check his bleeding arms, both of which had multiple compound fractures and punctures wounds clear through.

'GARY CORLE SAVED MY LIFE'

What took a grizzly bear just a moment to rip apart, doctors spent six hours putting back together. Dr. William Wennen, a renowned plastic surgeon, happened to be at the hospital when McCoy arrived and took over repairing the head wounds. Dr. Jim Tamai pinned and repaired the fractured arms and worked on the badly damaged hand.

Today, Johnny McCoy's once-smooth face could be better described as a patchwork crazy quilt.

His head has been shaved bare and tidy stitches march in straight and not-so-straight lines all over the top of his head, down his scalp and across his forehead. There are also short lines on his cheeks.

His left eye has been properly refitted into its socket and the lid carefully stitched back together. His left ear, which had been left dangling around his chin, has been sewn back into place and doctors are confident it will work.

Both the eye and ear are swollen and blackish-red with bruises that look terribly painful.

All in all, there are some 35 inches of stitching piecing McCoy back together. Arms and hands are swathed in casts and bandages. To keep down the swelling, both are held upright by slings attached to poles.

Healing will take time, but the prognosis is good. Doctors say his face should heal quickly with no lasting damage except for some scarring. His injured arms and hand will take many weeks to heal and, because of the severe damage, he may suffer from a weakened grip.

Corle escaped the incident relatively unscathed physically. He was bruised and bitten on the arm, but didn't even notice the latter until he was taking a shower. Later scrutiny of his clawed and chewed backpack, however, brought home the reality that he, too, could have been critically injured.

One of McCoy's first whispered requests after coming out of surgery was to see his hunting partner. In his first interview with a reporter, the still-medicated McCoy seemed fixated on one fact:

"Gary Corle saved my life," he said. "Gary Corle saved my life."

PLANNING TO GO BACK

Corle talks about his love of the land and how he treasures and values his time afield in Alaska. This is much more than a place to live. Hunting is much more than a jaunt into the outdoors.

"I feel so close to God out there," he said "That is my prayer room. I don't ever want to lose it or give it up."

Corle said the attack hasn't left him any more afraid of bears than he was a month ago. He's planning to go back. The two hunting buddies -- one slightly battered and the other stitched and pinned back together -- are discussing next year's moose hunt
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Old September 24, 2001, 04:41 PM   #17
TVDean
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Great I need a bigger gun!

.......anyone want a 629-4 mountain gun?

I'm kidding,...I'm kidding..

Last edited by TVDean; September 24, 2001 at 09:44 PM.
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Old September 25, 2001, 06:12 AM   #18
WESHOOT2
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MOUNTAIN GUN specific

Yes, 1200fps from 4" MTGUN (but all guns are always different; your results may vary).
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Old September 25, 2001, 09:33 AM   #19
Henry P
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Keith,
I was watching tv a couple of years ago and this commercial came on advertising animal videos. They showed a grizzly in full attack inthis one clip. I don't know how they got the film but it was the most blindingly fast and fearful thing I think I've ever viewed. I wish now I had ordered the video, because it really has to be seen to be believed(how fast and ferocoius the attack is). Personally I don't think I would have to worry about shooting, I'd be dead of a heart attack. Having a partner to go into the wilds with sounds like a good idea to me, maybe then one of you will be able to get a shot off. If you run into those guys up in Alaska let them know we're cheering for them, gotta admire their outlook.
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Old September 25, 2001, 04:13 PM   #20
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I have no personal experience with bears, but I know for a fact that ignorance is no disqualification for an "expert commentator" - I work in the media

Our local brown bears are not a serious problem. There are few of them and they are quite shy, usually they disappear long before you get close enough to be in danger. In the Svalbard islands, half way between mainland Norway and the North Pole, there is a growing population of polar bears. They ARE dangerous. The largest land predator in the world, no natural enemies, no fear of anything. The most popular handgun caliber among the locals is the .44, no six inch handheld mortars.

I have never heard any heated discussions about loads and bullet styles, I think most of those who carry revolvers consider most full power loads to be good enough. The key is bullet placement. A 240 grainer will do (and has done) the job if it hits the right spot, a magazineful of .30-06 will not even slow down a bear unless bullet placement is good. That said, most people carry handguns only as backup to a full caliber rifle. A revolver is easier to handle from inside a sleeping bag.

If/when I get a chance to do that camping trip up there I will bring my Ruger SBH 5-1/2" and some handloads with hardcast lead bullets. Maybe I will finally get around to working up a load with those 300 grainers a friend gave me some time ago I do not think I will worry too much about wether they do 1200 or 1300 fps.

Moose was also mentioned. I have a little more experience with those. Last week I almost bagged two - sitting in the projectile on my way home from work 2:30 AM one dark and rainy night... I had to break for one moose that was crossing the road, then swerve to avoid hitting another a few meters further on. This was not the first time, and I believe some 3000 moose were killed by road and rail traffic in this country last year. Around 40.000 are taken by hunters each year.

More to the point: I frequently come across moose when hiking in the woods where I live. Sometimes, especially in the dark, I have been quite close before noticing them, a couple of times measuring the distance in feet rather than yards. It has never been a problem, I just back off trying not to spook the animal. The best is of course to alert the moose before you get too close to it, if possible. And never ever go between a cow and her calves, that can be downright unhealthy...
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Old September 26, 2001, 10:40 AM   #21
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The best precautions to take while traveling in bear country are to carry pepper spray to repel the animal and attach a small bell somewhere on you person such that when you are moving the bell will ring. This will keep you from walking up on a bear by suprise and allow it to hear you from a distance and move off. Since back bears and grizzlies have such different agression levels it's also useful to know what kind of bears are in the area you are traveling through. This can best be assertained by observing any bear scat you may come across. Black bear scat usually consist of seed hulls, vegetable matter, and rodent fur, while grizzly poop is usually full of little bells and smells like pepper.
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Old September 27, 2001, 12:57 AM   #22
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Pappy John you forgot the many 38 caliber and 30 caliber bullets!
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Old September 27, 2001, 12:57 AM   #23
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I have a S & W Trail Boss w/3" barrel and my friend has a Mountain Gun. We chronographed the 320 gr. Cor Bon load out of both. Factory rating was 1250 fps (6" barrel, I assume). Trail Boss averaged 1075 fps and the Mountain Gun 1150 fps. Lots of recoil, but they hit the steel plates with some serious energy. On paper, within a few inches of point of aim (guns previously sighted with hot 240 gr loads). No extraction problems or other signs of stress. This is what I carried in Alaska on two trips a few years ago. However, it was merely backup for pepper spray (www.guardalaska.com) and a Mossberg 590 with 3" magnum Brennekes.
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