GLOCKS - are they THAT good ?

[HS]

Being a former Glock owner I am really trying to understand the "Perfection" mindset. Now other group of individuals seem to be as pedantic about their toys as them. Problems - lots...Are they attributed to design, nope ! Limp wristing and poor ammo are deemed the culprits. So are Glocks that good or is it a MYTH ?...HS (contest entry)


[This message has been edited by HS (edited 10-17-98).]

[.]

I fired my first Glocks a few weeks ago while on a boondoggle in Arizona. They were the G20 and G29. I fired them side-by-side in a subjective evaluation with a .45acp Gunsite Special and a .357SIG Browning Hi-power. The Glocks were every bit as instinctive to bring on target as the JMBrowning designs and had sufficient flatness in the handgrip to transmit a good sense of bore-axis deflection. What really sold me on them was the way they handled full-patch 10mm loads. There was no significant difference in felt recoil but the steel popper plates did not fail to drop, even from extreme lateral angle shots with the 10mm. The .45acp did next best, and the .357SIG required a straight on top hit to topple the popper reliably. I bought two (G20 & G29)upon return from AZ.

[This message has been edited by Mykl (edited 10-16-98).]

[HS]

For anyone reading this, at our club we've had 3 x 9mm & 2 x .45 Glocks sheer off their barrel lugs. It did take approx 150,000 rounds through each gun to do it but it still makes you wonder. Also have had 2 x 9mm slides crack in the bottom r/h corner of the ejection port. Personally I've had bulged cases in my 40 cal Glock that made them impossible to re-load and the extractor chipped trying to extract the cases that would bulge occasionally. Have read numerous other problems such as cracked frames/guide rods, sticking firing pins, ejection problems but "Glock Perfection" seems to cancell out any actual problems that are encountered. So again I ask, is perfection just a MYTH ?

[Rich Lucibella]

Hmmm. Yeah, what Mykl said.

Actually, I was there when Mykl did his impromptu eval of the Glocks and BHP. I had to be, in order to make sure I got my M20 and M29 back . He really did take a liking to that M20!

I was considering buying the HiPower. After shooting it, I was less than overwhelmed by the .357Sig round. It's hardly a poor round; just not enough to convince me to add a whole new caliber to the armory.

HS: Are you shooting lot's of hot hand loads?
Rich
BTW. After posting this message, I noticed a piece about the 357Sig in the Firearms Tactical Institute's October Tactical Brief. It may be found at http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs.htm

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-17-98).]

[Valdez]

HS,
Can't argue with your experience, you should know but I guess this is a relative thing. I am a bit surprised that the lug sheared off but 150,000 is really quite a bit of ammo.

What I've heard from reliable sources at shooting schools is that the Glocks are second in reliability in their experience only to the Beretta 92s. I personally haven't had a problem yet on my Glock but it's still under 1,000 rounds.

[Valdez]

Oh, I forgot to mention (this is also second hand) that I've heard that bulging cases are an infamous problem with glocks. Doesn't someone sell a replacement glock barrel designed specifically to deal with this problem for reloaders?

[GLV]

I started shooting the Glock 17 in about 1987. After about 100k rounds thru lots of Glocks, I still believe the Glock 17 was/is the best of the breed. They don't go KABOOM, they are accurate, reliable, and durable. Now, after the 17? I tried the rest and it is still the best. What do I carry? A Colt Commander .45ACP.

[[email protected]]

I don't like most Glocks because they don't fit my hands well.

The only exceptions to this are the 27 and 30, the rest just don't fit right.

But, they are excellently engineered, and well designed, despite the problems that the .40 models have had.

Spark

[HS]

Speaking of not fitting the hand, wonder if Gaston will ever consider a removable front/rear grip area and maybe changeable grip panels ? Oops forgot...the're perfect already ! ....HS ps..yeah the case bulging with factory ammo really was annoying.

[Steve Koski]

Glock "Perfection" is a marketing slogan. Glocks aren't perfect, and neither is any gun that is designed and manufactured by mortals. I have heard of catastrophic failure in about every gun make I can think of. Anecdotal evidence is very weak indeed.

I have reloaded about 2000 rounds from once fired factory 40 brass that was fired in Glocks and I havn't had any problems reloading it. I reload 99.9% of what I shoot through my 40 S&W Glocks and it works great, even with cast lead bullets.

My overall experience with Glock has been excellent, but I did buy a used G27 that would occasionally refuse to go completely into battery. This resulted in high/light primer strikes that sometimes did and sometimes didn't ignite the round. I traded it in for a brand new G27 that has since to malfunction even once in any way. I'm about 2000 rounds into it.

My neighbor bought a new G23 a couple years ago. Sometimes the case mouth would catch on the trigger bar (as it was being fed out of the magazine) and hold the slide open. He sent it back to Glock 3 times (they couldn't reproduce the malfunction) and on the third return they replaced it with a brand new gun.
My first G23 (40 S&W) ate about 12,000 rounds for me with only the following malfunction: With the original high cap mag the slide wouldn't stay back after the last round was fired after putting about 2,000 rounds through the mag. Maybe I needed a new spring. Either way I sold the mag for a new one which never malfunctioned. Other than that the feeding, extraction, ejection, cycling, etc. were 100% reliable. I sold this baby to get a new frame G23 with finger grooves. It has yet to malfunction in once with about 4,000 rounds through it.

[Rob Pincus]

Do you guys all have little notebooks you take to the range? With few exceptions, I can't even guess how many rounds I have through my guns. Not any more specific than " hardly any, More than a thousand, more than ten thousand, or too many to care anymore."

I think Glocks are great, no they are not perfect, but they are simple and reliable. I've shot every Glock but the .380, I've shot .400 Cor-bon Glocks, I've shot Glocks with just about every aftemarket grip add-on, I've shot them compensated, I've shot them after they been covered in sand, mud, I've shot them underwater (not me, just the gun..), and I've beat the hell out of one with a primed case (no bullet, powder) trying to make it go off, and I've shot the custom grip reduction ones. IMHO the latest Glocks, with the new frame, are the best of the breed for the average guy. The Glock 18 may be the ultimate tactical handgun. The Glock 17 (or maybe the 34?? jury is still out) is probably the ultimate 9mm semi auto.
Yes, I've seen bulged cases. Yes, I've seen jams and malfunctions. Yes, I remember the damn non-drop-free mags. yes, I can live without shooting lead and without re-loading.
Yes, I own shoot and carry other guns. But, If I had to only use one brand of handgun for the rest of my life? Glock.

[.]

Rob,

RE: range notebooks.

I can personally recommend the MTM "Handloaders Log", which is essentially a 3-ring binder with very well organized filler sheets. Used mine since '88. Before then, it was torn pieces of cardboard ammo boxes, napkins, inverted Mickey-Dee bags and the never fail ball-point on the palm of the hand.

[ShadedDude]

I have not ever actually shot a Glock so I'm handycaped in my opinion right there.
But the reason I havent is they just dont feel good in my hand. I do know alot of loyal Glock owners, which may prompt me to give one a chance. Who knows, maby with a little recoil my hand will reshape itself to fit a Glock

[Mikie]

After about a 8 year break from handgun shooting I got back into it about a year ago when I test fired a H&K USP40 and a Glock 23. I liked them both even though they were different as night and day. Previous to this my experience has been limited to SA semi-autos. I wound up buying a USP40Compact first, which I enjoy shooting. This is a very reliable gun and rugged. Having taken an combat handgun course I feel confident with the USP. The down side of the USP is the well known DA 1st shot and SA remaining shots. I haven't gotten to double tap drills I've read about on message boards because I'm still perfecting the DA 1st shot placement.

I just recently purchased a new Glock 23 after reading Glock message boards for over 4 months. I expect after putting the same number of rounds(1800) through the Glock as I have the USP I will find the Glock is easier to place 1st and subsequent shots accurately. After all, no safeties to disengage and only one trigger pull and light at that.

Regardless, I have no intention of selling the USP because I feel it is a quality gun.

One down side about the Glock. In the combat handgun course I took we were taught to holster the gun by 1) ensuring our finger was outside the trigger guard and 2) placing our thumb firmly against the back of the slide as we push it into the holster. On the USP this procedure ensures that the hammer cannot be raised if by some chance(granted it's remote) something got into your holser and made contact with the trigger. The Glock has no hammer. And the trigger safety can be bypassed by something other than your finger(remember the LEO who carried a baby Glock in his pocket which fired because of loose keys?). Therefore, in holstering a Glock, to be completely safe, you should include ensuring your holster is clear.

I am not as fanatical about brands as some of the writers who post to these message boards. If pressed into deciding which one I would carry all I can say is I'll let you know in a few months!

[HS]

Mikie, the a/d you posted reminds me of a Australian LEO who was testing a new thigh holster. The thumb break caught the DA trigger of his gun on re-holstering. BANG ! The bullet entered and travelled DOWN his femur, exiting and blowing out his kneecap ! That musta hurt !....HS

[ShadedDude]

Ok re-cap to my earlier statement.

I went to the range yesterday and got talking to someone, turns out he had a Glock model 20 with him, and he alowed me to shoot it.
Being that it was a 10mm I expected more recoil that the Glock produced. It shot very nice. The trigger pull was more of a single action pull when compared to my HK's first shot. But I have to things against it. One is the safty, I dont feel comftorble carring a gun with a safty that a pencil can set off. Granted, what are the chances? But still, I'm alowed my opinion. Second thing I didnt like, is the way it sits in my hand. Being used to the USP, when I held the glock I had to drop the front of my hand. When I first griped the glock, and pointed it at the target, I held my hand as I would normaly, this pointed the barrel upwards. Its just a quirk of the Glock design, and if I was to shoot a Glock the same amount as I shoot my USP then I would be used to it and it wouldnt be an issue. But being used to the USP, and 1911 designs...even high powers, the Glock grip makes me shy away from buying one.

So as far as perfection, no they arent perfect. If they were, every other manifactuer would go out of buisness.
They are however a very nice shooting gun that in another time I might have enjoyed shooting.

cheers

[Kodiac]

I owned a Glock 17 years ago - for about two months... That got traded in along with a couple other guns, on the VP70Z that I still own, but have placed in retirement. I like what Glock is doing these days - but I can't buy one... The ridges of the finger grooves hit me mid finger... Not pleasant to hold at all. I would have to grind down the grip some to be able to shoot it - might as well buy a smooth faced SIG or checkered HK.
I want to know - What makes Glock ( and Saturn) owners so loyal to the brand?

[Rich Lucibella]

The finger grooves on Glock's mini's were placed there (along with adjustable sights) in order to meet ATF requirements for import....has to do with some obscure point system that allows for minis if they have "target pistol" features.

The adjustable sights, as I understand it, are immediatley removed by Glock USA and replaced with the more practical fixed sights. There are a number of companies that can change the grip shape, including Gunsite and Robar. I have a Glock 29 with grip redone by Ted Yost at Gunsite...I'm ambivalent to the feel vs. original. Some might love it.

I've not experienced the Robar conversion. I'm told it's outstanding for those of us who favor the 1911 grip to slide angle and feel. YMMV.
Rich


[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-25-98).]

[Blues]

Kodiac,

Just one word......Plastics.
Okay, I was just having a "Graduate" flashback, I guess.

For me, the Glock loyalty is not based on any misguided notion of perfection, since I have had the rare glitch with one of mine over the years.

However, it boils down to what we discussed on another thread......simplicity.

I am not a "target" shooter, IPSC, IADP, LMNOP, etc.

I have only one true goal....when I break leather (or kydex, as the case may be) I want to be totally focused on my target, and don't want to be concerned with different trigger pulls, safeties, decocking levers or the like.

This is NOT a slam of any other weapon, as I have used and enjoyed using other firearms on and off the job.

This is merely an attempt to explain why I personally like my Glocks.

Adherence to the KISS principle works for me.

As for Saturns.......dunno.

Blues

[ShadedDude]

quote from Rich..."I've not experienced the Robar conversion. I'm told it's outstanding for those of us who favor the 1911 grip to slide angle and feel. "

This would make all the diference in the world to me.

[Dan]

I have been lurking this board since it was launched, and it is probably the most well done I've found on the web. As to the Glock perfection - nothings perfect, but for me, Glocks come the closest.

I have owned and shot handguns fron all the major manufacturers, Colt, Ruger, Berretta, Sig etc... And I (this just me, my opinion,we all know what they are like) have found that:

1. Glocks have been the most reliable. My G-23 has over 5,000 rnds with no malfuctions.

2. They are the simplest handguns to operate. Just point and squeeze the trigger. No safety to fumble (some would claim training was the key to preventing this, but I feel why risk it) and no DA/SA trigger. Don't like those - my own preference.

3. Glocks are smooth and snag free in comparison to many other designs. I carry concealed from time to time and I appreciate the Glocks being very carry freindly.

To me a handgun is a tool of last resort for survival in a close combat situation. The Glock series fits what I look for the best. Now for fun and pride of ownership I've been eyeballing the Kimber Custom Stainless .45....

[MarkCO]

I currently have a G22 with over 50,000 rounds through it. One failure to feed from a used mag I bought that had a weak spring and one from a wet weak hand only shot. I also had 2 G24s and have a G27 all of which combined had about 43,000 rounds with no failures. Not too bad. Also, several people are under the impression that Glocks digest nothing but full power loads, NOT TRUE! Just like 1911s, Glock can use an array of different spring weights fro differen power loads. I shoot loads from PF of 130 all the way up to 205 out of my G22. Just change the spring. Glocks may be the most misunderstood and most popular handgun there is. Glock, just like every other firearm manufacturer, says no reloads and it is a leagleze issue. Yes there are several companies that manufacture aftermarket barrels for the Glock that handle lead slugs just fine. BTW, 4 of the 6 catergories for autoloaders were won by shooters using Glocks at the American Handgunner this year. A tuned competition Glock is an extremely fast and accurate handgun. The beaty lies in the fact that accuracy and reliability work out of the box are unnecessary. But trick one out and WOW! As for HS, I think he has a bad taste in his mouth on Glocks and will continue to berate them til his dying day. Glocks, while not perfect, are that good HS! Good Shooting, MarkCO

[HS]

Mark, I don't have any bias towards Glocks as such. Mine worked quite well considering the Hell I put it through...grin. It was the Clubs Glocks barrel lugs breaking (not mine) after approx. 150,000 Military Norinco rnds through each model. As a primary carry gun Glocks are GREAT. It's the "never fail to feed - limp wristing jams - best weapon of all time", ahem... "Perfection" mind numbing propaganda that gets up my nose. Not a flame against *G* owners, just my pet peeve...HS

[Spectre]

Glocks...
lightweight
snag-free
high-cap (f***ing elitist meddlers!)
simple
rust-resistant
soft-recoiling
combat-accurate
high-value...
and THAT is why I feel so many love Glocks! Are they the perfect gun? For whom?

I do have a Glock 24 that would be the first sidearm I would want in my hand if I were unfortunate enough to need it, and handicapped with a handgun. Now I just "need" a Glock 18 and the Glock carbine?

[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited 10-28-98).]

[TaxPhd]

I would agree that Glocks are certainly fine firearms. If I wasn't such a fan of the 1911, I would most likely carry a Glock. However...

I have worked as a range officer for the GSSF annual shoot in Conyers, GA for the last two years. While Glock pistols are famous for their reliability, the GSSF matches have Glock factory armorers (three of them!) onsight to handle problems with competitors pistols, and they are kept very busy. While in fairness, a percentage of these problems are attributable to novice shooters with poor technique and poor ammunition, this doesn't account for all of the problems. Compare this to a typical IPSC match (I know, I know, IPSC shooters have their share of gun problems too, but I have NEVER attended an IPSC match that even approached the gun malfunction/failure rate a GSSF match).

In its favor, the Glock does provide point and shoot readyness with no external safety to manipulate. However, proper training and practice should render this a non-issue for pistols with external safeties.

Just my $.02, for what its worth . . .