357/38 working load.

[Gulfcowboy]

I'm looking for a good all purpose 357/38 working load. I've been using skeeter loads in my 4in model 69. I'm looking for something without all the flash and loud crack of the 357, but something that still packs a punch. I'm not sure whether to load up 38 plus p, or load down 357mag. I've been loading some 38 with 125gr jacketed hollow points with five grains of bulseye which puts it in the 38 plus p range. So if anyone has a good working loads for 357/38 I should would appreciate the recipe. Thanks for any input given

[Unclenick]

Loading down the longer 357 cases will always use more powder. However, if you are running 38's in a 357 chamber using lead bullets, you will get some lead build-up just ahead of the case mouth position that can interfere with 357's chambering if you don't clean it out well.

For that reason, I tend to download 357s rather than upload 38s. But I've known guys who got free access to old law enforcement 38 empties decades ago and had so many (think, oil drum full) that it really made more sense for them to stick with 38 Special cases.

If you look at Starline's site, they tell you their 38 Special and 38 Special +P cases have no difference other than the +P on the headstamp to let folks know it is the warmer load (because some older lightweight guns don't like a steady diet of them). The reason the brass is the same is the modern SAAMI specs use the same +P proof pressure for both 38 Special and 38 Special +P, whereas there was once a lower proof pressure for 38 Special. This standard saves the organization from having to maintain different proof and reference loads for the two cartridges. It also ensures nobody can accidentally run +P in a gun not designed to handle it, as all 38 Special guns made now are made to that higher proof standard. Besides, the 357 Magnum loads were developed using 38 Special cases back in the 1930s, so the strength of the brass was never the issue, and you can reload 38 Special and 38 Special +P cases interchangeably.

If you like 125-grain bullets, Bullseye is fine. In a maximum load, you will probably find HP38/231 meters more repeatably and is a little less dirty because it doesn't have as much total graphite in it as Bullseye does. If you want a still cleaner load, Hodgdon Universal works well for me, and you can still load it in the same range of velocities you are getting now. Since you have a 357 gun, you can just start with the same 5 grains you use with Bullseye and adjust to get the velocity you want.

[Gulfcowboy]

Thank you very much. Alot of good info.

[P Flados]

In the past few years, I have loaded thousands of mid range 357s.

A big reduction on muzzle flash comes by using faster powders. Your Bullseye is much better than any "magnum powder" and at 80% to 90% of "book max" you will still have something a good bit more than 38 SP +P.

Any of the really fast powders loaded half way between 38 and 357 (I use a Quickload calculated press of 25,000 psi for this), gets plenty of power with the lowest muzzle pressures (i.e. less blast).

I will give you a "mid range" 357 Quickload table with a lot of powders and a 125 gr cast bullet. I will sort with lowest muzzle pressure on top.

Depending on your desires, backing off just enough to get subsonic will get rid of the crack.

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested  data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .358, 125, LEE 358-125-RF
Useable Case Capaci: 19.086 grain H2O = 1.239 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.550 inch = 39.37 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.5 inch = 139.7 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon Clays                       58.5      4.9     0.32    1094   100.0    25000    3425   0.577
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star            84.0      7.4     0.48    1140   100.0    25000    3840   0.590
Hodgdon TiteGroup                   43.5      6.2     0.40    1180   100.0    25000    4240   0.569
Alliant RED DOT                     65.0      5.7     0.37    1179   100.0    25000    4293   0.575
Accurate Solo 1000                  62.5      6.1     0.40    1187   100.0    25000    4318   0.566
Accurate Nitro 100                  62.8      5.8     0.37    1205   100.0    25000    4550   0.563
Alliant GREEN DOT                   64.3      6.3     0.41    1208   100.0    25000    4609   0.571
Hodgdon HP38                        47.4      7.0     0.45    1227   100.0    25000    4800   0.562
Winchester 231                      53.5      7.1     0.46    1234   100.0    25000    4900   0.561
Ramshot Zip                         48.1      7.1     0.46    1234   100.0    25000    4900   0.561
Accurate Solo 1250                  67.8      7.1     0.46    1245   100.0    25000    5013   0.559
Accurate No.2                       63.6      7.4     0.48    1274    99.9    25000    5692   0.551
Alliant BULLSEYE                    59.2      6.9     0.45    1297   100.0    25000    5949   0.550
Ramshot Silhouette                  56.4      8.6     0.56    1303    99.9    25000    6195   0.554
Winchester WAP                      56.6      8.7     0.56    1304    99.9    25000    6223   0.553

[P Flados]

An alternate approach for setting up Quickload, is to look at loads that get the same velocity. Here is one such table, again sorted with lowest muzzle pressure on top.

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested  data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)			
Bullet             : .358, 125, LEE 358-125-RF			
Useable Case Capaci: 19.086 grain H2O = 1.239 cm³			
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.550 inch = 39.37 mm			
Barrel Length      : 5.5 inch = 139.7 mm			
			
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested			
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand			
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet			
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.			
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !			
			
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time			
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms			
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------			
Hodgdon Clays                       69.1      5.8     0.38    1200   100.0    32562    3990   0.511  ! Near Maximum !			
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star            91.4      8.0     0.52    1200   100.0    29377    4126   0.548					
Hodgdon TiteGroup                   44.8      6.4     0.42    1200   100.0    26288    4345   0.556			
Alliant RED DOT                     67.0      5.9     0.38    1200   100.0    26326    4408   0.560			
Accurate Nitro 100                  62.4      5.7     0.37    1200   100.0    24703    4521   0.566			
Alliant GREEN DOT                   63.7      6.2     0.40    1200   100.0    24530    4567   0.576			
Hodgdon HP38                        45.8      6.7     0.44    1200   100.0    23421    4661   0.580			
Ramshot Zip                         46.0      6.8     0.44    1200   100.0    23039    4726   0.584			
Winchester 231                      51.2      6.8     0.44    1200   100.0    23039    4726   0.584			
Accurate Solo 1250                  64.2      6.7     0.44    1200   100.0    22470    4793   0.589			
Accurate No.2                       58.9      6.9     0.45    1200    99.1    21225    5315   0.598			
Alliant BULLSEYE                    53.0      6.2     0.40    1200    99.9    20327    5429   0.609			
Ramshot Silhouette                  50.6      7.7     0.50    1200    98.8    20080    5616   0.617			
Winchester WAP                      50.8      7.8     0.50    1200    98.6    20061    5631   0.617

[Gulfcowboy]

You guys on here are a wealth of knowledge. I appreciate the replies.

[Nick_C_S]

Over the decades, I've loaded a lot of 125 JHP's for 38 Special+P. And these days, I load/shoot an even higher percentage (compared to other calibers, etc.) of them compared to times past. I spend a lot of time at the range shooting 38+P's. These days, I really like where they land between performance and easily manageable recoil.

I have a number of loadings that have pleased me over the years. Here's a few (all data through a Smith M67, 4" bbl):

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

I don't believe any of these charge weights exceed common load data, but the caution is worth mentioning. Also, none of this information should be taken as load advice. It is just my experience. Please, as always, safely do your own load workups.

5.2gn AA#2 - yields about 930 f/s. Low recoil, just a quick little snap.

7.4gn AA#5 - yields about 967 f/s. A little more flash, noise, and recoil than above, as one would expect. I prefer the AA#2 loading, actually.

4.6gn TiteGroup - yields about 925 f/s. A great low-recoil round that still performs well. But it's TiteGroup . Very low fill rate (a quadruple charge would probably fit in the case). And TG gets the gun really hot after not so many rounds.

5.4gn W231 (or HP-38 - same stuff) - yields about 955 f/s. A little more recoil than the AA#2, but I think it strikes the best balance between performance and recoil. Not to mention that I have over 10 #'s of W231 .

P.S.: This is all with 38 Special cases.

[Gulfcowboy]

I'm going to give 5.4gn W231 a try. I have alot of 38 special cases. I'll be buying some 357mag cases as well. I have some but not near as much as 38 special. I thank everyone for the good information.

[Paul B.]

I've always liked 5.0 gr. of Unique under a 158 gr. gas checked cast lead bullet in .38 Spl. brass. I use the same bullet over 14.0 gr. of 2400 in .357 Magnum brass for my S&W M28. Using .357 Mag. brass I would imagine something like W231 or Unique would deliver what the OP is looking for. Only problem I have is I've never bothered to work up lighter loads for use in my magnum handguns although I do have a rather potent load for the .38 Spl. that I use in the S&W 38/44 outdoors man, a .38 Spl revolver on the S&W "N" frame, the .38 on a .44 frame.
Paul B.

[rclark]

load down 357mag.

That is my preferred method. That way i don't have to deal with shorter .38s when reloading (adjust dies). You can load from 600fps to the barn burners in the .357 case. I've tested lots of loads in the 1000-1100fps range for 158gr SWC (preferred bullet. I have no conceivable use for the 125s) as that is my preferred velocity range out a 6 1/2" barrel. Currently I am loading 7.0gr of True Blue under the 158gr SWC. A sample of other loads I found, 5.5gr of Green Dot, 7.0gr of Long Shot, 6.5gr of CFE Pistol, 6.0gr of Unique.... All good. BTW, 5.5gr of W-231 gets you around 1000fps. Anyway, test for your self. Just because it's a .357 doesn't mean you have to put up with the noise and beat up your gun for general loads!

As for .357 cases, I just buy in bulk. 1000 cases from StarLineBrass and all is good for a long time.

[44 AMP]

Always be aware that, when using fast powders where a max charge only fills the case half way, or less that a double charge will fit in the case and if unnoticed, will absolutely spoil your day.

My loading philosophy is a bit different than what you are looking for. I load my magnums to BE magnums, and I load .38s to be .38s. I am not concerned with the flash from magnum loads, I consider it the cost of doing business to get the performance I seek.

[Jim Watson]

Always be aware that, when using fast powders where a max charge only fills the case half way, or less that a double charge will fit in the case and if unnoticed, will absolutely spoil your day.

Right, the only gun blown up on my club's old range was a .357 that undoubtedly got a doubled heavy load of Bullseye.

[Unclenick]

When 38 Special Wadcutters were still a target shooting mainstay, that double-charge effect was called "Bullseye surprise."

[Nick_C_S]

when using fast powders where a max charge only fills the case half way, or less

Yeah . . . or less.

In 38 Special, using TiteGroup, four charges of a target load will fit in the case.

Always check your charge levels for sure.

[BandeauRouge]

Seriously have to question this... if the SAAMI standard is to use the same proof pressure for both 38 special and 38 special +p, why are companies like Taurus and its 856 revolver, Armscor and its 38 sepcial revolver, both only listed as STANDARD 38 special only.

Only the 856 is "emergency use of +p ammunition"

[Hammerhead]

I always load in magnum brass, that way I don’t have to worry about going over +p levels.

My work a day load is 7 grains of Unique under any 125 grain jacketed bullet and a regular primer. About 38+p or so.

Muzzle flash is just a soft orange glow, and muzzle blast and recoil are tame.

[44 AMP]

Seriously have to question this... if the SAAMI standard is to use the same proof pressure for both 38 special and 38 special +p, why are companies like Taurus and its 856 revolver, Armscor and its 38 sepcial revolver, both only listed as STANDARD 38 special only.

Ok, here's the serious answer. There is a difference between the proof pressure limits and the WORKING pressure limits.

The proof load limit is based off the general pressure of the cartridge, increased by a specific amount, to be an intentional overload, that the gun must survive ONCE (or sometimes two or three rounds) without damage.

The proof limit is the same for the .38 Special and the .38 Special +p because they are the same cartridge. The +p is just a heavier (higher pressure) loading than standard.

The SAAMI pressure standards commonly talked about are the WORKING PRESSURE limits, for commercially produced guns and ammo. SAAMI is voluntary and no one is forced to comply if they don't want to.

Each maker can rate their guns any way they want, in the case of .38 specials, the gun survives proof loads. The gun WILL survive +p loads, BUT those loads put more stress on the gun and odds are it will wear out sooner, and that is something the maker wants to avoid, and can easily do so by not "rating" a specific gun for +p.

Informally they will often tell you the gun will take a moderate amount of +p shooting without trouble, but officially its not rated for +p, so if something fails, because you shot +p, that's on you, not them.

Colt originally didn't rate their Agent/Cobra snubnoses for +p, then later they sort of did. Sort of because while they said +p was ok they also wanted the guns sent back to the factory to be checked and inspected after every 1,000 rnds of +p ammo fired.

SO, whether or not a specific gun is mechanically capable of handling +p is not necessarily the deciding factor in a company's decision to rate it for continuous +p use, or not.

[rclark]

I see I can't edit a post... now...

But I made a slight error in above post... Should say "Currently I am loading 7.0gr of True Blue under the 158gr SWC {in a .357 case }."

[Mike / Tx]

I've used a 140'ish and 158 grain bullet in my GP-100'S for a long time. I like using AA-5 or AA-7 for the mid range loads. Usually nice recoil and little if any of the flash bang effects like Blue Dot, 110/296 or 2400.

I got away from the lighter bullets quite a while back mainly because of the powders I used at the time simply didn't work well with them.

[Unclenick]

Rclark,

I fixed it for you.

[Nick_C_S]

Kind of going along with 44 AMP's post: A couple decades ago I contacted Smith & Wesson regarding if I could shoot +P 38's in my Model 60 (5-shot, J-frame snubbie).

Their response was (paraphrasing): "All of our steel frame 38 Special revolvers can shoot +P ammo with no problem, whether we put '+P' on the barrel or not."

[Unclenick]

That's why SAAMI has the proof specs the same in their standard. They know no matter how much reading of labels they ask people to do, many will ignore them and load and shoot anyway. May it wear the gun out faster? It'll wear any gun out faster whether it says +P or not. It was only that early aluminum Airweights that had a problem, and, IIRC, they advised customers not to shoot them too much, even with regular ammo. Emergency gun, not a practice gun, apparently.