.44-40 primer choice

[jcj54]

I know .44-40 originated as a rifle cartridge but was then chambered in many pistols.
So, is large pistol or large rifle primer correct, especially if loaded to blackpowder pressures?

[Jim Watson]

I always used pistol primers for .44 WCF because I was going to shoot about half of them in revolvers.

[Savvy_Jack]

In the early days there was no such thing as rife or pistol primers. They were all numbered.

Now days, large rifle primers are a tad bit longer than large pistol primers. Thus, when used for the 44-40 cartridge, you could run into problems with ignition in the mag tube, or cartridges jamming in revolvers.

Personally I use them in my rifles but only load a few at a time when hunting, or one at a time when target shooting.

Details can be seen here:
https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...oading/primers

[44 AMP]

Large Pistol (standard, not magnum) is the correct primer.

The .44-40 was introduced in Winchester's 1873 rifle and Colt put it into their 1873 revolver shortly afterwards.

Regular large pistol primers are what is listed in the books.

I think if you try large rifle primers you will find them a bit "too tall" to seat flush or below flush in the .44-40 primer pocket and that is an undesirable, and possibly risky situation.

[ligonierbill]

I've used CCI 300 with Unique, FFg, and Black MZ (black powder sub no longer sold). Never a problem, and I fired a lot of rounds in Cowboy Action.

[Dillonhelp]

Current production 44-40 primer pockets are manufactured for large pistol primers.

[jcj54]

I suspected large pistol was correct, I did not find .44-40 listed in the rifle section of my manual.

[44 AMP]

I did not find .44-40 listed in the rifle section of my manual.

One rarely does. In fact I went through several old Speer manual which didn't list .44-40 at all. Many older manuals, printed between the time it basically went obsolete and its revival due to cowboy action shooting simply don't list it, as it wasn't very popular at the time.

Despite the fact that it first appeared in the Winchester 73, it is classed as, and considered a pistol round these days. Things were different in the distant past, where the same round was a rifle or pistol round, if it came in both.

Today its a pistol class round and rifles chambering it are considered to be pistol caliber carbines, mostly...

[Savvy_Jack]

I suspected large pistol was correct, I did not find .44-40 listed in the rifle section of my manual.

It depends on what manual or what website you look at as to where the 38-40 and 44-40 data is located.

Both cartridges are used in both rifle and revolver but yet it depends on what was used for testing as to where it will be located.

If a 7" or so barrel or "receiver" was used, it is typically located under revolver use. If a 20" or so barrel was used for testing, then it is typically located under rifle loads.

Lyman's 49th list the 38-40 only under handguns while the 44-40 is not only listed under handguns, but also rifles for both normal loads and high velocity loads (the later for strong action rifles only).

So short answer, use Large Pistol Primers.
For historical data, if interested, check here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=782758216

[Unclenick]

If you have a depth micrometer with a 3/16" spindle, you can measure the depth of the primer pockets in your brass. The SAAMI drawings show Large Pistol primer pockets are 0.117" to 0.123" deep, and Large Rifle are 0.125" to 0.132" deep. This may not define all historical instances of the cartridge case construction, but it will tell you what your brass manufacturer's intention was to see used with it.

[gwpercle]

I just checked the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition :

Rifle Data : 44-40 - Winchester WLP ( Large Pistol )

Handgun Data : 44-40 - Winchester WLP ( Large Pistol )

Lyman's data shows Large Pistol Primers in both Rifle and Handgun data .

Gary

[Unclenick]

So does Hodgdon. I think this implies modern 44-40 brass is all made with LP primer pockets. Given the modest pressures, I can't see why not. They won't challenge the primer cup. But if you are shooting vintage brass for some reason, you still may want to check pocket depth.

[44 AMP]

But if you are shooting vintage brass for some reason, you still may want to check pocket depth.

you should also check to see if you are shooting balloon head cases, or solid head cases.

Its not easy to get the full 40gr black powder charge into a balloon head case, but it can be done. Its not possible with solid head cases, there just isn't enough space.

And the reverse is that the extra space will lower the solid head smokeless powder load's pressure a little, so you might not get exactly all you expect.

Its not a matter of case strength at the pressures used, however, just volume.

[Jim Watson]

How much balloon head brass do you think is still in use?

[Unclenick]

Not a lot. That would be why "vintage" applies. It would have to come from a collection or some ancient stuff found in someone's attic. Semi-balloon head, on the other hand, is in a lot of modern Winchester rifle cases. I have no idea if they use it in their 44-40 brass.

[Jim Watson]

Semi-balloon head, on the other hand, is in a lot of modern Winchester rifle cases.

Really? Which calibers? I need to rummage through the reloading supplies to find such a thing.

What do you call "balloon" and "semi-balloon?"

[RoyceP]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Not a lot. That would be why "vintage" applies. It would have to come from a collection or some ancient stuff found in someone's attic. Semi-balloon head, on the other hand, is in a lot of modern Winchester rifle cases. I have no idea if they use it in their 44-40 brass.

I think you are mixing up the 44 WCF case with some other cartridge. The 44 WCF was never sold with a folded head case and never made that way.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...sing-the-44-40

[Jim Watson]

Union Metallic Cartridge Co under "UMC Thomas" developed what they then called the "solid head" case with S H in the head stamp. Look inside and it is what is now called balloon head or semi-balloon head. I am not clear on the distinction between balloon head and semi-balloon head but suspect it to be the misnomer of calling folded head cases "balloon head".

I have wondered if it would be feasible to make a New Folded Head, maybe even inside primed for cheap blasting ammo; at least in low pressure calibers like .38 Special.

[Hammerhead]

it doesn’t take much of a search to find pictures of balloon head 44-40 brass.

[Unclenick]

The semi-balloon head is also called a solid balloon head (kind of an oxymoron, in my view) and was introduced in modern times in the 308 brass Winchester designed for the 1992 Palma Match, which the U.S. hosted. It's a ploy to get maximum powder space eeked out, and that brass, I am told, weighed about 150 grains, which is light for 308 even by Winchester standards, but I don't think they expected it to have long reloading life. Basically, what they do is push a recessed ring into the web around the primer pocket, so when you look down into the case, you see the part of the web that contains the primer pocket protruding from the floor of the web. Though it started in that specialized 308 brass, they subsequently put it into a number of cases, probably to enjoy the raw materials savings.

[Savvy_Jack]

I performed some pressure tests for the 44-40 cartridges a few years ago. I discovered a few things I was not expecting....

First, the 44-40 (44 W.C.F.) has always been a "solid-head" case since first advertised in 1874. (see attached photo).

Second, the size of the solid-head's, "semi-balloon pocket" varied over the years, meaning...starting out large and tapering off over time until becoming a full solid head.

Third, Black Powder was loaded by weight (40gr) and compressed as needed in order to fit 40gr and a lead bullet. Typical compression of the powder varied between .17" and .21", pending the weight per volume density as well as the size of the "pocket". It is 100% possible to compress 40gr of Swiss FFg into a starline case...and has been done by me many many times. An early unheadstamped case handloaded with black powder yielded no compressed powder of which was 37gr. This can be seen here, look at item #8:

Forth, velocity seams to be effected by the "pocket" design. Note the velocities from the tests using period cases, as per velocity advertised.

Fifth, smokeless powder loads used the same semi-balloon pocket brass thus the reason the 44 W.H.V. loads were not to be reloaded.

On to the test results...enjoy!

44-40 Solid-Head, Semi-Balloon pocket velocities and pressures.
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[Savvy_Jack]

I also ran into a split pocket while shooting black powder test loads. I highly discourage the continued use of balloon pocket brass with black powder. I greatly discourage ever using the same with any smokeless powder.

[44 AMP]

I heard that "somebody" was making new balloon head cases for the cowboy action shooter crowd, though since its not my thing, I don't recall who was doing it, or what calibers were being done.

[Unclenick]

Interesting to see the terminology shift from what we call either semi-balloon head or solid balloon head was being called a solid head when the cartridge first came out. It probably seemed pretty solid to them coming right after balloon heads. I assume balloon heads existed both as a carryover from rimfire and to save brass. Life could never have been very good.


Jack,

Interesting work and collection overall. I notice the rolled cannelure in the case doesn't appear until 1903, and all the older cases are straight. That surprised me, as I'd been told at one time that those deep rolled cannelures were used to limit bullet seating depth. Clearly nonsense. The black powder alone would have stopped it. Thanks for the interesting information.

BTW, you appear to have a typo of the sort a spell checker won't mark. It's in the first column, row 15 of the history Excel file you shared.

[Savvy_Jack]

I am still learning as I go, the best teacher is actual artifacts and original data. The terminology took/takes a bit of getting use to but I learned a lot from actual period publications and how the words were used by different people. I takes a lot of getting use to for it to start sinking in.

I am teachable and always willing to learn.

The rolled cannelure should have been introduced in 1895 with the introduction/use of smokeless powder. However, I do not have an example to share.

The interesting part, as you mentioned, is that it was not needed for black powder loads because the bullet rested on top of the black powder. The early 1895 smokeless powder used by Winchester (Dupont No.2 Rifle) also filled the case just like black powder (volume for volume)...the bullet sitting on top of the powder. The difference being that the black powder was compressed (loaded by weight and compressed into volume), mouth crimped into the soft lead and the smokeless was not compressed (loaded by volume, however, typically 17gr)...thus the cannelure to insure the new JSP bullet did not telescope down into the case from the pressures of the rifle mag tube spring. Winchester did not use lead bullets with a crimp groove and the JSP bullet's "U" shaped groove was not full proof. Earlier JSP bullet grooves were a bit more like a crimp groove than the later and current design, but the cannelure was the safeguard.



Black Powder - loaded by weight and compressed to fit the volume.
Smokeless (Dupont No. 2 Rifle)- loaded by volume but weighed 17gr
Dense Smokeless Powders (Sharpshooter/SR-80, etc)- loaded by weight

I am still learning about early smokeless powders, what I know so far can be seen here Most of what I right is for my own use, more so published notes...always subject to editing without notice.

Thanks for pointing out the mis-spelling.....it's a full time job...LOL I think I fixed it but I am sure there are others. I jab away as I go!!



My apologies again for getting off topic but it happens when certain information begins to get a bit off actual data.

Just a refresh of the primers, the rifle primers stick out past the base of the cartridge base, best to use large pistol of which were called Winchester #111 primers before the name calling was implemented. The early small primer pocket black powder and smokeless powder cases used the smaller #1 primers, and are basically the same size as modern small pistol primers...of which I use to replace those #1 primers when testing with those cases.