BOHICA: Law Bars a National System for Tracing Bullets and Shells

dZ · October 7, 2002, 04:23 PM

Law Bars a National System for Tracing Bullets and Shells
By FOX BUTTERFIELD
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/07/na...html?tntemail1

The technology exists to create a national ballistic fingerprint system that would enable law enforcement officials to trace bullets recovered from shootings, like those fired by the Washington-area sniper, to a suspect.

Such a system would have been of great use in the Washington case, in which six people were shot to death, because so far bullet fragments are virtually the only evidence.

But because of opposition by the gun industry and the National Rifle Association, only two states have moved to set up a ballistic fingerprint system, and Congress has prohibited a national program, experts say.

"I definitely think that the technology is there, and it has been refined to the point where it is cost effective," said Joe Vince, a former chief of the crime guns analysis branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

"It would not be an imposition on the manufacturers or law enforcement or citizens, so I'm all for it," said Mr. Vince, who is now president of Crime Gun Solutions, a consulting company in Frederick, Md.

Now, the police can tell only whether bullet fragments or shell casings found at a crime scene match one another and come from the same gun. This information helps establish whether only one weapon was involved.

But without the gun itself, the police cannot go the next step and use this information to try to trace the shooter.

Even the technology that enables the firearms bureau to match bullet fragments or shell casings to one gun is new. A system was installed in 1999 after encouragement by the Clinton administration, Mr. Vince and other experts said.

This system, known as the National Integrated Ballistics Information Network, optically scans the markings on bullets or shell casings, converting them into an electronic signature. This information is stored in a database and can be retrieved by computers in 235 police departments around the nation.

Gun control advocates and some law enforcement authorities like Mr. Vince have long advocated taking the next step, requiring gun manufacturers to keep an electronic record of the markings from bullets and shell casings when new guns are test fired. This data would be kept with the serial numbers of the guns.

With this information, the agency would be able to trace bullets and shell casings found at a shooting site to the gun maker and eventually to the buyer, said Mr. Vince and another former high ranking firearms bureau official.

But the National Rifle Association has opposed this, calling it tantamount to a national gun registry. The group succeeded in getting a provision in the 1968 federal Gun Control Act outlawing any national gun registry.

"This is just another example of N.R.A. paranoia about gun registration, which prevents effective law enforcement," said Dennis Henigan, the legal director of the Brady Campaign Against Gun Violence.

Only Maryland and New York require gun makers to provide test-fired samples of bullets and shell casings when they sell a gun. Their programs have had limited effectiveness because they are new and because guns used in crimes could have been sold in so many other states.

MitchSchaft · October 7, 2002, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Only Maryland and New York require gun makers to provide test-fired samples

The shootings happened in MA. So is that technology helping you now? Or are they saying they need ALL guns "finger-printed". Not gonna happen.

Justin · October 7, 2002, 04:48 PM

Quote:

"It would not be an imposition on the manufacturers or law enforcement or citizens, so I'm all for it," said Mr. Vince

With all due respect, Mr. Vince can eat my ass.
:barf:

dZ · October 7, 2002, 04:53 PM

i gather they don't expect criminals
to know how to polish a chamber
or bore paste a barrel

qkrthnu · October 7, 2002, 04:57 PM

Quote:

i gather they don't expect criminals
to know how to polish a chamber
or bore paste a barrel

Of course not! That would be against the law. Why would they ever do that?

mdlowry · October 7, 2002, 09:18 PM

Is this enough of an excuse for me to go buy a Dan Wesson?

dZ · October 7, 2002, 11:47 PM

Tracing Bullets
Although investigators have been able to trace the bullets in several of the Washington, D.C.-area shootings to the same gun, there is no system in place allowing them to determine the original purchaser of the gun. John Ydstie talks to Jim Kessler, policy director for Americans for Gun Safety, and Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, about the pros and cons of such a system. (5:00)

real audio:
http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20021007.atc.11.ram
http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01...ate=10/07/2002

Airwolf · October 8, 2002, 01:28 AM

Once again more "feel good-we're doing something to protect the children" Bull$%^ for the consumption of the sheeple.

As pointed out a Dremel, file or barrel switch completely flushes their precious database down the toilet.

I saw a posting that indicated that the MD. shell casing program, which promised to reduce crime and bring evil-doers to Justice (and costing over million dollars I believe) has netted, er, um, ZERO, NADA, ZIP bad guys.

And yet they want to waste MORE taxpayer dollars with a NATIONAL program (and a de-facto registration system to boot).

To quote Bandit (of Smokey and the Bandit fame) "Do the letters 'FO' mean anything to you?"

:barf:

BayouBlaster · October 8, 2002, 09:01 AM

Putting aside the obvious deficiencies already mentioned that would be inherent in such a system, has anyone taken the time to estimate what establishing and maintaining a database of this magnitude would cost?
I wonder how many of their sacred government funded social programs they would be willing to sacrifice to pay for this nonsense.

dZ · October 8, 2002, 10:17 AM

lets all blame the NRA:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/08/op...html?tntemail1

"And yet these shots could have revealed something about their origin. Every firearm leaves a ballistic fingerprint on every round it fires. Ballistic evidence allows police to determine whether or not bullets come from the same gun. The technology also exists to create a national database that would link the ballistic fingerprint of an individual gun to its place of sale and its owner. Such a database might have made an enormous difference in a case like this. But the National Rifle Association has roundly opposed the idea as just another form of gun registration, and Congress has consistently followed the N.R.A.'s lead. Coincidentally, Maryland is one of only two states to have created ballistics fingerprint databases of their own. "

MessedUpMike · October 8, 2002, 01:47 PM

Md only collects the shell casings, and only on "new" handguns sold after Jan. 1, 2002. They don't collect them on rifles, and the "collection" only "works" if your recover a shell casing. In the event somebody stole your gun and used it in a crime all they would know is that sadi BG used your stolen gun.

Mike

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

October 7, 2002, 04:23 PM	#1
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	BOHICA: Law Bars a National System for Tracing Bullets and Shells Law Bars a National System for Tracing Bullets and Shells By FOX BUTTERFIELD http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/07/na...html?tntemail1 The technology exists to create a national ballistic fingerprint system that would enable law enforcement officials to trace bullets recovered from shootings, like those fired by the Washington-area sniper, to a suspect. Such a system would have been of great use in the Washington case, in which six people were shot to death, because so far bullet fragments are virtually the only evidence. But because of opposition by the gun industry and the National Rifle Association, only two states have moved to set up a ballistic fingerprint system, and Congress has prohibited a national program, experts say. "I definitely think that the technology is there, and it has been refined to the point where it is cost effective," said Joe Vince, a former chief of the crime guns analysis branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. "It would not be an imposition on the manufacturers or law enforcement or citizens, so I'm all for it," said Mr. Vince, who is now president of Crime Gun Solutions, a consulting company in Frederick, Md. Now, the police can tell only whether bullet fragments or shell casings found at a crime scene match one another and come from the same gun. This information helps establish whether only one weapon was involved. But without the gun itself, the police cannot go the next step and use this information to try to trace the shooter. Even the technology that enables the firearms bureau to match bullet fragments or shell casings to one gun is new. A system was installed in 1999 after encouragement by the Clinton administration, Mr. Vince and other experts said. This system, known as the National Integrated Ballistics Information Network, optically scans the markings on bullets or shell casings, converting them into an electronic signature. This information is stored in a database and can be retrieved by computers in 235 police departments around the nation. Gun control advocates and some law enforcement authorities like Mr. Vince have long advocated taking the next step, requiring gun manufacturers to keep an electronic record of the markings from bullets and shell casings when new guns are test fired. This data would be kept with the serial numbers of the guns. With this information, the agency would be able to trace bullets and shell casings found at a shooting site to the gun maker and eventually to the buyer, said Mr. Vince and another former high ranking firearms bureau official. But the National Rifle Association has opposed this, calling it tantamount to a national gun registry. The group succeeded in getting a provision in the 1968 federal Gun Control Act outlawing any national gun registry. "This is just another example of N.R.A. paranoia about gun registration, which prevents effective law enforcement," said Dennis Henigan, the legal director of the Brady Campaign Against Gun Violence. Only Maryland and New York require gun makers to provide test-fired samples of bullets and shell casings when they sell a gun. Their programs have had limited effectiveness because they are new and because guns used in crimes could have been sold in so many other states. __________________ "O tell the Lacedomecians to damn the torpedoes." BOTR, Chapter V: Some Monsters

October 7, 2002, 04:53 PM	#4
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	i gather they don't expect criminals to know how to polish a chamber or bore paste a barrel __________________ "O tell the Lacedomecians to damn the torpedoes." BOTR, Chapter V: Some Monsters

October 7, 2002, 09:18 PM	#6
mdlowry Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 417	Is this enough of an excuse for me to go buy a Dan Wesson? __________________ My PGP key

October 7, 2002, 11:47 PM	#7
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	Tracing Bullets Although investigators have been able to trace the bullets in several of the Washington, D.C.-area shootings to the same gun, there is no system in place allowing them to determine the original purchaser of the gun. John Ydstie talks to Jim Kessler, policy director for Americans for Gun Safety, and Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, about the pros and cons of such a system. (5:00) real audio: http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20021007.atc.11.ram http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01...ate=10/07/2002 __________________ "O tell the Lacedomecians to damn the torpedoes." BOTR, Chapter V: Some Monsters

October 8, 2002, 01:28 AM	#8
Airwolf Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2001 Location: Southern PRK Posts: 242	Once again more "feel good-we're doing something to protect the children" Bull$%^ for the consumption of the sheeple. As pointed out a Dremel, file or barrel switch completely flushes their precious database down the toilet. I saw a posting that indicated that the MD. shell casing program, which promised to reduce crime and bring evil-doers to Justice (and costing over million dollars I believe) has netted, er, um, ZERO, NADA, ZIP bad guys. And yet they want to waste MORE taxpayer dollars with a NATIONAL program (and a de-facto registration system to boot). To quote Bandit (of Smokey and the Bandit fame) "Do the letters 'FO' mean anything to you?" :barf: __________________ On Sepember 13, 2004 "Free America" became a bit more free with the sunset of the AWB. On that same day California banned the .50BMG. The nation looks to California as a "trend setter". Ignore what happened here at your own peril. California: The New And Improved CCCP

October 8, 2002, 09:01 AM	#9
BayouBlaster Member Join Date: October 3, 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 34	Putting aside the obvious deficiencies already mentioned that would be inherent in such a system, has anyone taken the time to estimate what establishing and maintaining a database of this magnitude would cost? I wonder how many of their sacred government funded social programs they would be willing to sacrifice to pay for this nonsense.

October 8, 2002, 10:17 AM	#10
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	lets all blame the NRA: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/08/op...html?tntemail1 "And yet these shots could have revealed something about their origin. Every firearm leaves a ballistic fingerprint on every round it fires. Ballistic evidence allows police to determine whether or not bullets come from the same gun. The technology also exists to create a national database that would link the ballistic fingerprint of an individual gun to its place of sale and its owner. Such a database might have made an enormous difference in a case like this. But the National Rifle Association has roundly opposed the idea as just another form of gun registration, and Congress has consistently followed the N.R.A.'s lead. Coincidentally, Maryland is one of only two states to have created ballistics fingerprint databases of their own. " __________________ "O tell the Lacedomecians to damn the torpedoes." BOTR, Chapter V: Some Monsters

October 8, 2002, 01:47 PM	#11
MessedUpMike Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2002 Location: Metro DC Posts: 247	Md only collects the shell casings, and only on "new" handguns sold after Jan. 1, 2002. They don't collect them on rifles, and the "collection" only "works" if your recover a shell casing. In the event somebody stole your gun and used it in a crime all they would know is that sadi BG used your stolen gun. Mike Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. __________________ "Crush your enemies, See them driven before you, Hear the lamentations of their women" Ghengis Khan on the greatest joys in life The second amendment protects all of the others.