Bond Arms Derringers (Question)

Laslow · February 22, 2005, 09:49 AM

Hey.
I have a few questions about derringers.

How reliable are Bond Arms derringers, and would they be the best choice if I want to purchase a derringer?

Also, I was thinking about the Cowboy Defender model, because I am worried
about the trigger guard hitting my hand in recoil. (is this a possibility? and is this model the best choice?)

I'm planning on buying a 44M/44SP barrel for it. (No, I don't take any medications.

)

Only using it for target.

Thanks, guys.
-Laslow

Edit: I just noticed that all the models except the Cowboy Defender have a removable trigger guard, so which model would be the best choice in general?

DPris · February 22, 2005, 11:29 AM

The Bonds are the best derringers made.
You can get the regular model & remove the triggerguard or the caboy model without one to begin with. Everything else is the same on & in the guns.
It's your business, but I'd recommend against the .44 Magnum. The derringer is not a target gun, it just doesn't have the sights or the accuracy for target work. The Bonds are regulated better than the American Derringer guns, but you're still looking at 7 yards being a long shot. The barrels won't put both bullets in the same spot, and the variance increases with distance.
You most likely won't shoot .44 Mag ammo in it, and there's not much point in buying a .44 Mag derringer to shoot .44 Special ammo that may or may not be widely available in your area. Same with loading the .44 down, if you handload. I'd suggest a .45 (either ACP or Colt) if you want a big bore, .38/.357 if you don't. The .45 recoil will still make the gun jump in your hand, but it's much more bearable than the .44 Mag. The .38 is infinitely better (lower recoil, cheaper, quieter, etc.) for just a fun toy, and you can still run a couple .357s through it for defensive use if you want to get serious with it.
Good luck.
Denis

Laslow · February 22, 2005, 02:20 PM

Thanks for the reply.

I'm probably going to be getting it with a 410/.45LC barrel, and maybe even a .357 barrel along with the 44M/44SP barrel.

It's more of just something I think would be horribly amusing to shoot.

-Laslow

DPris · February 22, 2005, 05:26 PM

That's one other nice feature of the Bonds, you can buy extra barrels in other calibers & swap them yourself.
Remember- there's just not much barrel weight or grip to hold onto, you might want to start out with a lighter caliber first & see how that goes.
Good luck.
Denis

CANIS · February 22, 2005, 10:31 PM

I own a Texas Defender in .44 Mag w/ gold engraved barrels. FWIW, they no longer offer this gun in .44 mag. Some guy dislocated his thumb or some such and sued Bond Arms IIRC. So, they no longer stock that barrel. If it is within 15 yards of me, it is getting drilled COM with my gun. I regularly shoot 240 grain JSP hunting ammo out of mine. It is accurate enough to drill out the center ring of a silhouette target with no problem. Both barrells print close enough to point of aim.

The trigger guard DEFINITELY helps control recoil. You can always take it off if you want to, but you can't put one on the cowboy model.

I also have 3 1/2" .45 colt/ .410 barrels for it. They are a real hoot to shoot as well! You can get extended grips for the gun which really make it feel like a small revolver in your hand. I am completely happy with my Bond. It is bobble-free and the most powerful gun you can carry in your pocket. I requently carry mine in my front jeans pocket as a main carry gun. 1 or 2 .44 mag slugs at point blank range should do the trick for your average lowlife.

I intend to get .357 barrels and the .22lr barrels as well. They are beautifully made guns in a modern redesign of the old derringer style. They are safe to carry and load without all the problems that people associate with old style guns.

Any other questions about them, feel free ask - I have fired a ton of them and love them!

canis

robgump · July 12, 2005, 01:05 AM

I was working for Greg (Bond) when the .44Mag issue occurred.
I was the person that was injured by the derringer in .44 Mag.
There was no law suit, the "accident" was a freak combination of events
and tolerances (with just a little dirt thron in for good measure). I had just gotten an order for a derringer in .44 and built one up after the weeks production run. At this time we also had accepted delivery of new firing pin springs. As company policy dictated that ALL guns must be test fired, I took our standard test load(Remington 240 gr. JHP's) out to a friends house for a little plinking. Typical sunny June day in Texas about 95 degrees @ 3 p.m.
When I pulled the trigger I remember thinking that the recoil felt Just a bit sharp. (Normally this loading in broad daylight will throw a spiral flame about 8" in diameter 3 feet long, IT'S just BEAUTIFUL!)(for those techs among you this round generates approx. 35 ftlbs of RECOIL).
I noticed that the flame was at least double in size, and I was starting to feel just a bit uncomfortable in the palm of my hand. My hand at the end of recoil was pointing straight up. We had determined that the second round had ignited because of a combination of grit (causing the firing pin spring to be partially compressed on the off-cycle barrel) and a sensitive primer.
We tried to reproduce the "double" through various combinations of ammo
unsuccessfully. To be on the safe side we replaced the entire batch of firing pin springs with a new one with a little heavier rate and a year or two later discontinued the .44Mag chambering. Better safe than sorry.

About accuracy...
I can put two .45 acp 230 gr slugs on a 6" steel at 25 yds consistantly.
I have a friend that showed me how to put the BondSuper ammo two rounds in the same HOLE @25 yds. A C.A.S.(cowboy action shooting) enthusiast has reported hitting a steel plate at 75 yds consistantly with 130gr round nose Cowboy loads.
The grip you use on this gun is critical to the accuracy you get. The most accurate grip is two hand with trigger control ONLY done by one hand and aiming with the other. The principle behind this is the hand aiming the gun is not being disturbed by the muscle movement of trigger pull. BTW for those that do not know ,the trigger movement on ALL Remington derringers is a downward motion not back like nearly every modern firearm ever produced. Trigger pull is measured in a downward toward the bottom of the grip. Factory set at about 6 3/4 lbs.

As to which model to get...
get the Texas or any with the trigger guard and you have the option of removing it. A trigger guard CANNOT be added to a "Cowboy" or it's variants.

DISCLAIMER: I am not employed by Bond Arms Inc. and make no claims to any ownership or representation of Bond Arms Inc. products.
I am however, Their biggest enthusiast.

DPris · July 12, 2005, 02:21 PM

Rob,
Glad you can get that kind of accuracy.
The Bonds are regulated better than the American Derringers, but I've never been able to do that with the two Bonds we have (.45 Colt, .357 Magnum, .32 Magnum barrels) in factory ammo or handloads.
Denis

robgump · July 16, 2005, 11:36 PM

(I was at Bond when you got yours. I believe we sent you some ammo as well?)
Assuming one is using the proper downward trigger "pull"...
The accuracy is a result of not allowing the muscle tension of the trigger hand to pull the gun off target. This is NOT an ergonomic design. Trajectory is less of a problem when shooting HIGH velocity loads due to reduction of dwell time in the barrel.
The two .45's impacting the target at the same place @25 yards using the same bore, was 85 gr BondSuper ammo.

The following results were from single hand shots...
Using 230 gr Remington ball @ 21 ft. upper and lower barrel impact points measured 8" center to center. BondSuper ammo hits measured .5" (1/2 inch) center to center.

DPris · July 17, 2005, 11:49 AM

Rob,
No ammo came with them.
How you hold the derringer and how you work the trigger does make a difference.
Put the trigger pull either downward or on the bottom part of the trigger, and don't hold the derringer with the hammer either digging into or resting against the web of the hand.
Never tried the BondSuper stuff. I've shot five different calibers in the American Derringer guns & three in the Bonds. The Bonds are better regulated in relation to the sights. The 7-yard results you mention with the Rem is about what I recall in the Bond I have. My wife's .32 Mag will do slightly better.
The Bonds have a better safety system than the ADs, but they're also a bit larger, bulkier, and heavier.
Still good guns.
Denis

February 22, 2005, 09:49 AM	#1
Laslow Junior Member Join Date: January 1, 2005 Posts: 11	Bond Arms Derringers (Question) Hey. I have a few questions about derringers. How reliable are Bond Arms derringers, and would they be the best choice if I want to purchase a derringer? Also, I was thinking about the Cowboy Defender model, because I am worried about the trigger guard hitting my hand in recoil. (is this a possibility? and is this model the best choice?) I'm planning on buying a 44M/44SP barrel for it. (No, I don't take any medications. ) Only using it for target. Thanks, guys. -Laslow Edit: I just noticed that all the models except the Cowboy Defender have a removable trigger guard, so which model would be the best choice in general? Last edited by Laslow; February 22, 2005 at 10:20 AM.

February 22, 2005, 10:31 PM	#5
CANIS Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Posts: 308	I own a Texas Defender in .44 Mag w/ gold engraved barrels. FWIW, they no longer offer this gun in .44 mag. Some guy dislocated his thumb or some such and sued Bond Arms IIRC. So, they no longer stock that barrel. If it is within 15 yards of me, it is getting drilled COM with my gun. I regularly shoot 240 grain JSP hunting ammo out of mine. It is accurate enough to drill out the center ring of a silhouette target with no problem. Both barrells print close enough to point of aim. The trigger guard DEFINITELY helps control recoil. You can always take it off if you want to, but you can't put one on the cowboy model. I also have 3 1/2" .45 colt/ .410 barrels for it. They are a real hoot to shoot as well! You can get extended grips for the gun which really make it feel like a small revolver in your hand. I am completely happy with my Bond. It is bobble-free and the most powerful gun you can carry in your pocket. I requently carry mine in my front jeans pocket as a main carry gun. 1 or 2 .44 mag slugs at point blank range should do the trick for your average lowlife. I intend to get .357 barrels and the .22lr barrels as well. They are beautifully made guns in a modern redesign of the old derringer style. They are safe to carry and load without all the problems that people associate with old style guns. Any other questions about them, feel free ask - I have fired a ton of them and love them! canis __________________ I'm not tolerant...

July 12, 2005, 01:05 AM	#6
robgump Junior Member Join Date: July 12, 2005 Posts: 2	Bond Arms clarification I was working for Greg (Bond) when the .44Mag issue occurred. I was the person that was injured by the derringer in .44 Mag. There was no law suit, the "accident" was a freak combination of events and tolerances (with just a little dirt thron in for good measure). I had just gotten an order for a derringer in .44 and built one up after the weeks production run. At this time we also had accepted delivery of new firing pin springs. As company policy dictated that ALL guns must be test fired, I took our standard test load(Remington 240 gr. JHP's) out to a friends house for a little plinking. Typical sunny June day in Texas about 95 degrees @ 3 p.m. When I pulled the trigger I remember thinking that the recoil felt Just a bit sharp. (Normally this loading in broad daylight will throw a spiral flame about 8" in diameter 3 feet long, IT'S just BEAUTIFUL!)(for those techs among you this round generates approx. 35 ftlbs of RECOIL). I noticed that the flame was at least double in size, and I was starting to feel just a bit uncomfortable in the palm of my hand. My hand at the end of recoil was pointing straight up. We had determined that the second round had ignited because of a combination of grit (causing the firing pin spring to be partially compressed on the off-cycle barrel) and a sensitive primer. We tried to reproduce the "double" through various combinations of ammo unsuccessfully. To be on the safe side we replaced the entire batch of firing pin springs with a new one with a little heavier rate and a year or two later discontinued the .44Mag chambering. Better safe than sorry. About accuracy... I can put two .45 acp 230 gr slugs on a 6" steel at 25 yds consistantly. I have a friend that showed me how to put the BondSuper ammo two rounds in the same HOLE @25 yds. A C.A.S.(cowboy action shooting) enthusiast has reported hitting a steel plate at 75 yds consistantly with 130gr round nose Cowboy loads. The grip you use on this gun is critical to the accuracy you get. The most accurate grip is two hand with trigger control ONLY done by one hand and aiming with the other. The principle behind this is the hand aiming the gun is not being disturbed by the muscle movement of trigger pull. BTW for those that do not know ,the trigger movement on ALL Remington derringers is a downward motion not back like nearly every modern firearm ever produced. Trigger pull is measured in a downward toward the bottom of the grip. Factory set at about 6 3/4 lbs. As to which model to get... get the Texas or any with the trigger guard and you have the option of removing it. A trigger guard CANNOT be added to a "Cowboy" or it's variants. DISCLAIMER: I am not employed by Bond Arms Inc. and make no claims to any ownership or representation of Bond Arms Inc. products. I am however, Their biggest enthusiast.

February 22, 2005, 11:29 AM	#2
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	The Bonds are the best derringers made. You can get the regular model & remove the triggerguard or the caboy model without one to begin with. Everything else is the same on & in the guns. It's your business, but I'd recommend against the .44 Magnum. The derringer is not a target gun, it just doesn't have the sights or the accuracy for target work. The Bonds are regulated better than the American Derringer guns, but you're still looking at 7 yards being a long shot. The barrels won't put both bullets in the same spot, and the variance increases with distance. You most likely won't shoot .44 Mag ammo in it, and there's not much point in buying a .44 Mag derringer to shoot .44 Special ammo that may or may not be widely available in your area. Same with loading the .44 down, if you handload. I'd suggest a .45 (either ACP or Colt) if you want a big bore, .38/.357 if you don't. The .45 recoil will still make the gun jump in your hand, but it's much more bearable than the .44 Mag. The .38 is infinitely better (lower recoil, cheaper, quieter, etc.) for just a fun toy, and you can still run a couple .357s through it for defensive use if you want to get serious with it. Good luck. Denis

February 22, 2005, 02:20 PM	#3
Laslow Junior Member Join Date: January 1, 2005 Posts: 11	Thanks for the reply. I'm probably going to be getting it with a 410/.45LC barrel, and maybe even a .357 barrel along with the 44M/44SP barrel. It's more of just something I think would be horribly amusing to shoot. -Laslow

February 22, 2005, 05:26 PM	#4
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	That's one other nice feature of the Bonds, you can buy extra barrels in other calibers & swap them yourself. Remember- there's just not much barrel weight or grip to hold onto, you might want to start out with a lighter caliber first & see how that goes. Good luck. Denis

July 12, 2005, 02:21 PM	#7
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Rob, Glad you can get that kind of accuracy. The Bonds are regulated better than the American Derringers, but I've never been able to do that with the two Bonds we have (.45 Colt, .357 Magnum, .32 Magnum barrels) in factory ammo or handloads. Denis

July 16, 2005, 11:36 PM	#8
robgump Junior Member Join Date: July 12, 2005 Posts: 2	(I was at Bond when you got yours. I believe we sent you some ammo as well?) Assuming one is using the proper downward trigger "pull"... The accuracy is a result of not allowing the muscle tension of the trigger hand to pull the gun off target. This is NOT an ergonomic design. Trajectory is less of a problem when shooting HIGH velocity loads due to reduction of dwell time in the barrel. The two .45's impacting the target at the same place @25 yards using the same bore, was 85 gr BondSuper ammo. The following results were from single hand shots... Using 230 gr Remington ball @ 21 ft. upper and lower barrel impact points measured 8" center to center. BondSuper ammo hits measured .5" (1/2 inch) center to center.

July 17, 2005, 11:49 AM	#9
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Rob, No ammo came with them. How you hold the derringer and how you work the trigger does make a difference. Put the trigger pull either downward or on the bottom part of the trigger, and don't hold the derringer with the hammer either digging into or resting against the web of the hand. Never tried the BondSuper stuff. I've shot five different calibers in the American Derringer guns & three in the Bonds. The Bonds are better regulated in relation to the sights. The 7-yard results you mention with the Rem is about what I recall in the Bond I have. My wife's .32 Mag will do slightly better. The Bonds have a better safety system than the ADs, but they're also a bit larger, bulkier, and heavier. Still good guns. Denis