Sig p220... or SA 1911??

zx11rider · July 27, 2005, 11:25 PM

I already have a p228 and a p239, so the similar manual of arms and shooting style with the P220 are big pluses. But by that same token, it would kinda feel like having 3 of the same gun!

I don't want to spend more than around $1k. The gun must be .45 and have an integrated rail. The gun will primarily be a house gun with tactical light, with possible use for IDPA. If it already comes with a mag well and rubber grips, that a plus.

Here are the guns I've considered so far:
Kimber TLE/RL: A base model Kimber with a rail and night sights for $1k? I feel like I can find a better deal somewhere.

SA TRP Operator: Bull barrel and full dust cover = no idpa. Heavy. I don't need or like the crap mags, adjustable sights and grit grips, so I'd be paying more than I need (plus it's a little over my budget). But it looks really bad ass! As much as I want this one just to show off at the range...

SA MC Operator: Yucky grips and a less than desirable green frame coating. Needs a mag well. But on paper it's got everything I need otherwise, and the price is about right.

Sig GSR: Dont get me wrong, I'd love to have another Sig, but not if it means buying a lesser 1911. I like the pebbled grips on the nitron model, but it would still need night sights and I think the SA MC Operator is a better 1911 for about the same money. Plus I'd be worried about getting one of the earlier batches and possible issues.

Sig p220: the safe bet.

If anyone has any comments or other 1911 makes/models I should be considering, please reply!

Thanks.

kgpcr · July 27, 2005, 11:39 PM

i own both and i would go with the Springfield all the way. Whats the warranty on the Sig?? Springfield is lifetime and i love my Springers. get a loaded and you will never look back... ever

Ftom14cat · July 28, 2005, 12:07 PM

kgpcr: is it the warranty that is the deciding factor in your choosing the 1911? How about the other important factors when contrasting these guns, like how it fits your hand and reliability. Personally I don't own either, but I have heard that the p220 naturally points better than the 1911. Having fired both, I don't believe this is true for me, and I agree with you that I would go 1911 in this choice. However, some people may prefer the sig because of this feature. Regarding reliability, unless I am mistaken, the p220 is more reliable. A warranty is good, but a gun that doesn't break doesn't need a warranty.

jtb1967 · July 28, 2005, 12:20 PM

I own a number of 1911's, but I personally feel more comfortable with the Sig's DA/SA no manual safety style of operation. If this gun is to be used for home defense, you might better served with a Sig since you're already used Sig's controls.

MK11 · July 28, 2005, 01:17 PM

Sig P220 ST. It's a breed apart from the traditional P220.

cheygriz · July 30, 2005, 04:59 PM

I own both. The P220 is tomorrow. The 1911 is yesterday.

It's like the difference between a Trapdoor Springfield and A Garand.

CobrayCommando · August 1, 2005, 01:05 PM

It's odd that HSLD units like CAG, FBI HRT and others use 1911s instead of the P220. It's my guess that they chose these weapons before the P220 .45 was molded into the firearm it is now, and perhaps before it was widely recognized as an excellent handgun.

kgpcr · August 1, 2005, 07:49 PM

I love the spiringer warranty but i have never had to use it and i own 6 of them. i think Smith wont hold a candle to a springer. Kimber either im my mind. i think Sig makes a great pistol and i own a one of those as well but if i had to choose it would be Springer all the way

paul45 · August 1, 2005, 08:16 PM

Sig 220.....far better than any SA....I used to have SA's. Sold them 1 by 1. Now if I want a 1911, its a Colt. Get the 220.......but JMO, nothin more

CougarRed · August 2, 2005, 08:48 PM

SA GI model is the best cheap platform out there for a custom job. I got mine for $400, and now have $600 more into it ($100 of which for new grips and 2 Cobra 8+1 mags from Tripps). The trigger is awesome and the gun is 100% reliable with all the MIM parts replaced. I still need to put new sights on it, but once that is done, I will pit my 1911 against any model available off the shelf.

As for the Sig P220, check out the Tactical Forums for experiences of various police armorers with that model. Don't know if the P220ST suffers the same problems, but the regular P220 is not a 25,000 round gun.

stephen426 · August 2, 2005, 09:06 PM

I say go with the 1911 to change things up a bit. If you look at my sig, my guns are pretty varied. If you plan to compete, get the 1911. It is highly customizable and can be made to shoot more accurately than the P220. Sigs are great guns but you will enjoy the 1911's once you get one. One word of caution is that disassembly is a biotch compared to the Sigs. I posted a thread on it. Then again, I do have a Baer so that might have something to do with it.

CobrayCommando · August 2, 2005, 09:43 PM

http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootin...es.asp?ID=1230

For every SIG you hear malfunctioning there are 10,000 that didn't. All manufacturers have trouble spots, Glocks HAVE been known to KB now and then, Berettas had slides flying off left and right, hitting our soldiers in the face.

SIGs customer service is better than most, and I would say it is better than Glocks or Berettas. Search Firearms Tactical forums and you will find for every report of bad Sigs there are many good ones.

http://sigforum.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/...35/m/651109692

Cougarred alloy frame P220s regularly exceed 100,000 rounds. The one at my range has gone well over that.

ATW525 · August 2, 2005, 09:51 PM

I just decided to put a new .45 on order today. I have one of those SigArms Academy graduate $100 rebate certificates, so I could get $100 back on the purchase of a new P220. Clearly the choice was a no brainer... I ordered the Springer

CobrayCommando · August 2, 2005, 10:16 PM

How come?

ATW525 · August 3, 2005, 05:44 AM

Because I've owned the P220 before and didn't like it. My old P220 was temperamental in feeding ammo and never really felt good in my hand. I really like most of the other Sigs I've shot, but the P220 just isn't for me. The choice of SA was based on research of reviews, examining them at the gunshop, and comments from users. I also looked into Kimber, Colt, Smith & Wesson, Dan Wesson and the Sig GSR. The Springer just seemed the right combination of quality, features and price when stacked against the competition.

CougarRed · August 3, 2005, 07:19 AM

Cobray

Did you read the article? The trigger pivot broke at 6000 rounds.

I am sure some P220s reach 100,000 rounds after multiple broken parts are replaced.

cas · August 3, 2005, 07:25 PM

I would sell the P228 and buy a P220. Then buy the Springfield.

CobrayCommando · August 3, 2005, 10:58 PM

Yeah, a good 1911 is my second favorite handgun, but show me one 1911 under 800 dollars that is as reliable AND accurate.

Out of 10,000 rounds fired in that test, there were 6 errors.

Two were caused by operator error loading the mags, two were caused because the operators didn't clean the gun properly (at round 4723 and 5352, they didn't clean the ejector), the error at round 4104 occured because of the Black Hills ammunition provided, one round was actually out of spec (.908 inch instead of .888 to .898 inch, I will say that there are guns out there that would have fed this, but one out of 10,000, does it really matter)

The final error came when the trigger pivot broke, after which the handgun functioned normally. According to the operators the breakage of this part can be attributed to the fact that the gun was fired "ultrarapidly", resting only to clean I believe.

So in effect, only one problem can truly be attributed to the firearm itself, and that problem occured due to excess abuse (who goes to the range with 5 friends and fires off 10,000 rounds?)

And here is the real gem; after a thorough cleaning, the firearm only became more accurate after 10,000 rounds had been fired through it than it ever was (1.94 inches at 25 yards)

It's still my opinion to go with the SIG, absolutely, then get the Springfield and enjoy both!

cje1980 · August 4, 2005, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Berettas had slides flying off left and right, hitting our soldiers in the face.

That was over 20yrs. ago and was just a handful of hundreds of thousands of guns. The problem was fixed with a re-design and it hasn't happened since. I would hardly classify it as left and right.

CobrayCommando · August 4, 2005, 09:30 AM

Although 14 slide separations were reported by military personnel, you are correct that only a handful of injuries occurred.

That is my point, slide separations weren't an epidemic, and I don't classify what is happening now with SIGs as an epidemic problem. Yes it is happening with slightly greater frequency, yes it will be fixed.

Its no reason not to buy the gun. I will give a point to the 1911, I have never heard of one failing like modern guns do. It is built overly solidly, but I guess thats not what people like these days. I agree that a 1911 will last longer, my question is do you need it to. BTW though whoever said "yes it lasted 10,000 rounds perfectly but it needed a part replaced", most of the 1911s in the US military system by the 80's on average had every part replaced or repaired IIRC.

Post note: 24,000 Beretta M9s were found to have defective frames, which had to be replaced by Beretta, so if your point is that it is generally more durable than the SIG, I would say not. Most modern guns have about the same durability, but handguns constructed of steel will last much longer.

July 27, 2005, 11:25 PM	#1
zx11rider Member Join Date: December 3, 2004 Posts: 18	Sig p220... or SA 1911?? I already have a p228 and a p239, so the similar manual of arms and shooting style with the P220 are big pluses. But by that same token, it would kinda feel like having 3 of the same gun! I don't want to spend more than around $1k. The gun must be .45 and have an integrated rail. The gun will primarily be a house gun with tactical light, with possible use for IDPA. If it already comes with a mag well and rubber grips, that a plus. Here are the guns I've considered so far: Kimber TLE/RL: A base model Kimber with a rail and night sights for $1k? I feel like I can find a better deal somewhere. SA TRP Operator: Bull barrel and full dust cover = no idpa. Heavy. I don't need or like the crap mags, adjustable sights and grit grips, so I'd be paying more than I need (plus it's a little over my budget). But it looks really bad ass! As much as I want this one just to show off at the range... SA MC Operator: Yucky grips and a less than desirable green frame coating. Needs a mag well. But on paper it's got everything I need otherwise, and the price is about right. Sig GSR: Dont get me wrong, I'd love to have another Sig, but not if it means buying a lesser 1911. I like the pebbled grips on the nitron model, but it would still need night sights and I think the SA MC Operator is a better 1911 for about the same money. Plus I'd be worried about getting one of the earlier batches and possible issues. Sig p220: the safe bet. If anyone has any comments or other 1911 makes/models I should be considering, please reply! Thanks.

July 28, 2005, 12:07 PM	#3
Ftom14cat Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 135	kgpcr: is it the warranty that is the deciding factor in your choosing the 1911? How about the other important factors when contrasting these guns, like how it fits your hand and reliability. Personally I don't own either, but I have heard that the p220 naturally points better than the 1911. Having fired both, I don't believe this is true for me, and I agree with you that I would go 1911 in this choice. However, some people may prefer the sig because of this feature. Regarding reliability, unless I am mistaken, the p220 is more reliable. A warranty is good, but a gun that doesn't break doesn't need a warranty. __________________ “What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.” -Thomas Jefferson

July 30, 2005, 04:59 PM	#6
cheygriz Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2002 Location: high up in the rockies Posts: 2,289	I own both. The P220 is tomorrow. The 1911 is yesterday. It's like the difference between a Trapdoor Springfield and A Garand. __________________ If you think a mighty military force is expensive, wait 'til you see what a weak one costs.

August 1, 2005, 08:16 PM	#9
paul45 Member Join Date: February 26, 2005 Location: charlotte area,NC Posts: 90	Sig 220.....far better than any SA....I used to have SA's. Sold them 1 by 1. Now if I want a 1911, its a Colt. Get the 220.......but JMO, nothin more __________________ Semper Fi

August 2, 2005, 09:06 PM	#11
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I say go with the 1911 to change things up a bit. If you look at my sig, my guns are pretty varied. If you plan to compete, get the 1911. It is highly customizable and can be made to shoot more accurately than the P220. Sigs are great guns but you will enjoy the 1911's once you get one. One word of caution is that disassembly is a biotch compared to the Sigs. I posted a thread on it. Then again, I do have a Baer so that might have something to do with it. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

July 27, 2005, 11:39 PM	#2
kgpcr Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2005 Posts: 955	i own both and i would go with the Springfield all the way. Whats the warranty on the Sig?? Springfield is lifetime and i love my Springers. get a loaded and you will never look back... ever

July 28, 2005, 12:20 PM	#4
jtb1967 Junior member Join Date: September 29, 2004 Location: WV Posts: 454	I own a number of 1911's, but I personally feel more comfortable with the Sig's DA/SA no manual safety style of operation. If this gun is to be used for home defense, you might better served with a Sig since you're already used Sig's controls.

July 28, 2005, 01:17 PM	#5
MK11 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2001 Posts: 577	Sig P220 ST. It's a breed apart from the traditional P220.

August 1, 2005, 01:05 PM	#7
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	It's odd that HSLD units like CAG, FBI HRT and others use 1911s instead of the P220. It's my guess that they chose these weapons before the P220 .45 was molded into the firearm it is now, and perhaps before it was widely recognized as an excellent handgun.

August 1, 2005, 07:49 PM	#8
kgpcr Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2005 Posts: 955	I love the spiringer warranty but i have never had to use it and i own 6 of them. i think Smith wont hold a candle to a springer. Kimber either im my mind. i think Sig makes a great pistol and i own a one of those as well but if i had to choose it would be Springer all the way

August 2, 2005, 08:48 PM	#10
CougarRed Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Posts: 99	SA GI model is the best cheap platform out there for a custom job. I got mine for $400, and now have $600 more into it ($100 of which for new grips and 2 Cobra 8+1 mags from Tripps). The trigger is awesome and the gun is 100% reliable with all the MIM parts replaced. I still need to put new sights on it, but once that is done, I will pit my 1911 against any model available off the shelf. As for the Sig P220, check out the Tactical Forums for experiences of various police armorers with that model. Don't know if the P220ST suffers the same problems, but the regular P220 is not a 25,000 round gun.

August 2, 2005, 09:43 PM	#12
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootin...es.asp?ID=1230 For every SIG you hear malfunctioning there are 10,000 that didn't. All manufacturers have trouble spots, Glocks HAVE been known to KB now and then, Berettas had slides flying off left and right, hitting our soldiers in the face. SIGs customer service is better than most, and I would say it is better than Glocks or Berettas. Search Firearms Tactical forums and you will find for every report of bad Sigs there are many good ones. http://sigforum.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/...35/m/651109692 Cougarred alloy frame P220s regularly exceed 100,000 rounds. The one at my range has gone well over that.

August 2, 2005, 09:51 PM	#13
ATW525 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 2,723	I just decided to put a new .45 on order today. I have one of those SigArms Academy graduate $100 rebate certificates, so I could get $100 back on the purchase of a new P220. Clearly the choice was a no brainer... I ordered the Springer

August 2, 2005, 10:16 PM	#14
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	How come?

August 3, 2005, 05:44 AM	#15
ATW525 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 2,723	Because I've owned the P220 before and didn't like it. My old P220 was temperamental in feeding ammo and never really felt good in my hand. I really like most of the other Sigs I've shot, but the P220 just isn't for me. The choice of SA was based on research of reviews, examining them at the gunshop, and comments from users. I also looked into Kimber, Colt, Smith & Wesson, Dan Wesson and the Sig GSR. The Springer just seemed the right combination of quality, features and price when stacked against the competition.

August 3, 2005, 07:19 AM	#16
CougarRed Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Posts: 99	Cobray Did you read the article? The trigger pivot broke at 6000 rounds. I am sure some P220s reach 100,000 rounds after multiple broken parts are replaced.

August 3, 2005, 07:25 PM	#17
cas Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2004 Posts: 123	I would sell the P228 and buy a P220. Then buy the Springfield. __________________ "He who has it, would do well to have it, as if he did not have it." Savage24.com Cylindersmith.com

August 3, 2005, 10:58 PM	#18
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	Yeah, a good 1911 is my second favorite handgun, but show me one 1911 under 800 dollars that is as reliable AND accurate. Out of 10,000 rounds fired in that test, there were 6 errors. Two were caused by operator error loading the mags, two were caused because the operators didn't clean the gun properly (at round 4723 and 5352, they didn't clean the ejector), the error at round 4104 occured because of the Black Hills ammunition provided, one round was actually out of spec (.908 inch instead of .888 to .898 inch, I will say that there are guns out there that would have fed this, but one out of 10,000, does it really matter) The final error came when the trigger pivot broke, after which the handgun functioned normally. According to the operators the breakage of this part can be attributed to the fact that the gun was fired "ultrarapidly", resting only to clean I believe. So in effect, only one problem can truly be attributed to the firearm itself, and that problem occured due to excess abuse (who goes to the range with 5 friends and fires off 10,000 rounds?) And here is the real gem; after a thorough cleaning, the firearm only became more accurate after 10,000 rounds had been fired through it than it ever was (1.94 inches at 25 yards) It's still my opinion to go with the SIG, absolutely, then get the Springfield and enjoy both!

August 4, 2005, 09:30 AM	#20
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	Although 14 slide separations were reported by military personnel, you are correct that only a handful of injuries occurred. That is my point, slide separations weren't an epidemic, and I don't classify what is happening now with SIGs as an epidemic problem. Yes it is happening with slightly greater frequency, yes it will be fixed. Its no reason not to buy the gun. I will give a point to the 1911, I have never heard of one failing like modern guns do. It is built overly solidly, but I guess thats not what people like these days. I agree that a 1911 will last longer, my question is do you need it to. BTW though whoever said "yes it lasted 10,000 rounds perfectly but it needed a part replaced", most of the 1911s in the US military system by the 80's on average had every part replaced or repaired IIRC. Post note: 24,000 Beretta M9s were found to have defective frames, which had to be replaced by Beretta, so if your point is that it is generally more durable than the SIG, I would say not. Most modern guns have about the same durability, but handguns constructed of steel will last much longer.