Here's my (fairly) new Saiga-12

[FirstFreedom]

12 ga. Cost an arm and a leg since it's one of the last ones with the last-round-BHO, choke tubes, and the accessories - ACE stock, tac forearm, etc., but it's worth it. Now just need some 10-round mags (they are being made, supposedly). The one in the pic is a 5-round, so you can imagine how big the 10-rounders will be. It's wearing a junky red dot right now on a BP-02 mount, BTW. Now I need a pressure pad switch for my Surefire.

[Syntax360]

Jeez - that is a seriously scary black rifle! Remind me not to make you mad...

Very nice!

[FirstFreedom]

Thanks, Syntax - I kinda like it!

I took the red dot off - I decided that I can get faster acquistion on moving targets with the irons. Plus, for self-defense, the main role of the gun, I don't want to be messin round with switches and batteries. The red dot would be great for turkey hunting though.

Also since the pic, for $2 from Lowe's, I added a 1/2" pipe insulation piece onto the upper tube of the ACE folding stock, (polyethelyne, self-sealing), cut to fit, and it works PERFECTLY as a nice cheek rest.

Yeah, the Saiga's looks would make the Brady Bunch poop their collective pants:

-It's black, an evil color
-It has that inherently-evil Kalishnikov receiver shape
-Evil extended barrel out the front (without a rifle front sight, it's evil just like an Uzi)
-BIG evil bore size
-Evil folding stock
-Evil tac forearm
-Evil accessory on said tac forearm
-Evil red dot (if I put it back on)
-Evil detachable mag
-And of course, evil pistol grip

I keep it in the safe so that it doesn't up and go kill someone while I'm not watching.

Any other Saiga shottie fans?

[Desert Heat]

That is a bad mother ****er! How much do you have in it? I am thinking about the samething?

[TOU]

Very very nice....so which pistol grip is this? Forearm? Did you convert this or have it done?

[Mike U.]

Well, this is the first time a gun pic ever gave me wood! :barf:
That is one seriously nice long arm.
I need to get a second job. So many toys, so little money...

We'll need a range report on this deliciously evil, black, hotty shotty!

[SteelCore]

Congrats! That thing looks wicked as hell.

I've been considering a Saiga 12 gauge, so maybe this is a good opportunity to ask some questions, if folks don't mind:

(1) Are they reliable enough for defensive use?
(2) Do they pattern reasonably well?
(3) Are they difficult to find? Best place to find/buy?

Thanks!

[Dave McC]

Nice toy.

But, not a word so far about how it shoots.

You have shot it, right?....

[FirstFreedom]

Ha. Yes, I've shot it - maybe 30 or 40 rounds is all though - was gonna use it for turkey season, but using the iron sights, it was shooting too HIGH - my pattern was centered maybe 8 or 10 inches too high at 25 yards (might have been 30 yards) with the irons. So I didn't use it for spring turkeys. So went back to the drawing board. Since the irons were/are NOT adjustable for elevation, I put an Armson OEG on it. Also recently got a FAB arms forward V-grip & flashlight holder, and two 10-round mags for it.

Went back to the range, and then sighted it in with the Armson couple weeks ago. But the problem I had was that, with the IC choke on it this time, the patterns were so wide, that I could not tell very well the outer boundaries of the pattern (even at just 10 yards), and therefore could not tell the center of the pattern. So it was hard to get it dialed in. So, next time I go to the range, I'm going to use slugs or buckshot to find the center, and re-adjust the Armson, then loctite the screws - the Armson has these less-than desirable, "non-clicking" adjustment screws. I plan to use triple ot buck with the IC choke for home defense, so I need to test that ultimately, at very short range (10-15 yards). But want to try to get it close to center with cheaper ammo.

Reliability. Yes, now it's very reliable. At first, it locked the action open with a slight design flaw which I fixed with a dremel - the *manual* BHO button would push its way up so far into the receiver after the last shot was fired, from the violent action of the bolt slamming back (and of course the manual BHO is connected to the magazine BHO lever), that the edge/corner of the button would lodge or stick in underneath the receiver metal, and not be allowed to come back out - would require messing with it with a screwdriver after every mag. After I dremeled off the sharp corner of the manual BHO button, no problemos now.

Do they pattern well?.....Not too sure - haven't tested enough - the full choke patterned well (circular), but the sights were off.

Where to buy?....I think that they are readily available - I got mine from Cobra II (Shannon) at www.forum.saiga-12.com . Only thing is that the ones like mine with the BHO are rare - they quit making them with the BHO (in my understanding) - so I had to pay a premium. I had to pay an extra premium to find one with BOTH BHO and interchangeable choke tubes. But I think the non-BHO ones are available through various distributors & dealers. Cobra II at saiga-12 did all the customizations for me. It's an ACE stock. I *think* it's an ACE grip, but not totally sure actually. The tac forearm - not sure who makes that. I traded him a Saiga .308 plus quite a bit of jack for the saiga 12.

It is pretty soft-shooting though, in any event, at least with 2.75s.

It looks even more evil now - I will post a pic of it later today.

[Dave McC]

Thanks, FF. A couple things....

First, in your shoes I'd do the Ayoob test before posting any HD weapon. That's 200 rounds of DUTY anno, glitch free.

With all due respect, 40 rounds is not enough to determine reliability. Even on a Kalishnikov.

Do not use slugs to determine POA/POI. Slugs shoot to points that rarely match the center of patterns shot with that barrel.For instance, my HD 870 prints the best grouping slug about 8" higher at 25 yards than the center of the buck of choice patterns.

You mention patterning (Great!!) at 10 to 15 yards for HD. I suggest measuring the longest possible shot in your domicile, adding a yard for GPs, and patterning there. What's wanted is a pattern of no more than the width of a human torso, say 15". And, smaller works too.

And, once you've picked your Duty load and choke, pattern until you find out what distance that pattern begins to deteriorate, and know when to switch to slugs.

HTH.....

[FirstFreedom]

Now it's "done", I think.

First, in your shoes I'd do the Ayoob test before posting any HD weapon. That's 200 rounds of DUTY ammo, glitch free

Roger that on reliability...good point. I should say, *so far* it's been reliable.

Thanks for the tips on patterning. I need to get to work doing that. It's quite possible I'd end up using the modified or even the full choke to get the desired results. 10-4 on the no slugs for patterning. I am reluctant to tear up the wooden target backstops patterning a shotgun a lot with bird or buckshot, but it occurs to me just now that next range trip, I can pull the plywood insert out of the steel frame, and then just stretch & tape paper over the frame, and then pattern to my heart's content without tearing up our gun club's plywood.

The longest distance you can see in my house is only about 10-11 yards, so 10-12 yards should be where I want to sight it in.

Finished product - fairly satisfied - the OEG works well in broad daylight as well as the dim light of the house. Only complaint is the small size of the dot, and the adjustments screws not being "normal" like a scope - they are too loosey-goosey and don't click.

[Dave McC]

Great idea on the targets.

Try all of your chokes. First, about 1 in 10 tubes here have thrown patterns off where the rest do.

Second, the older I get, the less I like spread with a defensive shotgun. A forensic expert tells me that the most effective patterns of 00 run maybe 5" across at the target. No worries about stray pellets too.

Noe go shoot the heck out of your saiga....

[Csspecs]

I have two saiga shotguns. Bought a 20 gauge for my brother to use and a 12 gauge for me.

We did the conversion to pistol grip and folding stock in about two hours including welding the safety (the inner tab on the safety was to short) and trigger gaurd (I could not get a rivit in the front so I welded it).

My 12 gauge is still stock but I should be getting the parts soon.

I have another three saiga rifles that have been converted.

[Mike U.]

OMG!!

I have got to get me one of those!

Dude, If you keep posting pics, I'm gonna end up taking out an equity loan on my house.

How is the recoil with that Kalashnikov action?

Also, that was a cool cheek rest fix. Kudos on the cleverness of it!

[TOU]

I just figured it out....the grip previously had a Hogue sleeve on it, no? Originally I had thought it was a new pistol grip, cool! Thx for the update, very nice.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Yowza!

I almost bought a .410 Saiga at the last gunshow I went to, but I'm holding out for a 12ga.

If you don't mind me asking, how much did you shell out for the gun before all the add-ons?

[WeedWacker]

Oooo me likey. I think I would rather have one of those for CQB than an M4/lookalike.

[FirstFreedom]

Hey thanks guys. Yeah, it's pretty sweet. Right, exactly; I took the rubber grip sleeve off from the first to second pic - didn't like it; it was too thick. I'm embarassed to say how much I have into it, but it's a lot.

http://www.fbmginc.com/index.php?opt...id=37&Itemid=1

http://www.fbmginc.com/index.php?pag...emart&Itemid=1

Hmmm, contrary to what I had said above, FBMG is showing that those available now DO have the BHO like mine. I guess they started making / importing them again. When I got mine, the BHO ones were harder to find. Problem is, the mags have to have a cutout made in them to keep them from holding the bolt open constantly from the moment of insertion, preventing firing - it's a tad complicated, so PM me or read up at www.forum.saiga-12.com if you want details.

Then, add accessories from there. The pistol grip is a cheapie poor man's weaponlight - the FAB Defense foregrip:

http://www.makosecurity.com/Merchant...gory_Code=_FAB

The recoil of the gun is pretty light with 2.75s - no problem at all - haven't shot 3.0s" yet though.

[Doggieman]

possibly the most effective close-range self defense weapon available, not counting a flame thrower.

[Csspecs]

I named mine "squirrel poison", very fitting.

I don't know how I'm going to contain myself this hunting season, I have been using either a pump action or a break action single shot for the last four years. Now I have a six shot semi auto!!!

Nothing in the woods is safe

[lil_bro]

*drool* Nice FF, I've been wanting one in .410 for squirrels but I think I want one in 12ga now.



Michael.

[NCLivingBrit]

You know, you might want to run your reliability test real soon. My wife just read my mind (me wantee!), grabbed up a hammer and charged off looking for you

I can live without BHO and swapping out the stock for a pistol grip on a stock one doesn't seem to be too much sweat....

Anyone know how much I should be dropping on a new/as-new stock Saiga 12 or 12K? Their site is none too helpful.

[Mike U.]

I've seen them running in the $449.00 range. That's for the stock Saiga 12. Add $$ as you add goodies.

[Csspecs]

430-450 out the door (taxes paid) is about the norm for a stock saiga 12, the stock and pistol grip is going to run about 80-200 just for parts (depending what brand).

[NCLivingBrit]

Thanks!

There's something very tempting about an EBR that shoots 12 gauge