Brand New Glock 21 SF explodes while shooting PMC Ammo -- PICS

LanceOregon · October 7, 2008, 05:06 PM

There is a big thread on Glocktalk.com in the General Glocking forum currently, about a brand new Glock 21 SF that failed recently allegedly just shooting PMC factory hardball ammo. There is a lot of speculation going on at Glocktalk as to whether the gun itself failed, or whether the ammo was defective.

Here are some photos of the damaged gun and the exploded round:

The owner reports that his index finger that was on the trigger is numb, and has no feeling now.

.

HK123 · October 7, 2008, 05:08 PM

Prove to me that that is a factory round.

Until then I call BS.

LanceOregon · October 7, 2008, 05:15 PM

Is it pretty much impossible for factory ammo to be defective??

Or could it possibly happen?

.

HK123 · October 7, 2008, 05:19 PM

It could, but likely? No not likely. This is especially true with .45acp which is relatively low pressure compared to something like 10mm, .357sig, and .40s&w.

Until there's evidence that it was a factory round then I will say it's a reload in which case the blame rests on the one who loaded it up. That's why Glock's manual states that it's not a good idea to shoot reloaded ammunition and you should only use fresh factory rounds.

PMC isn't a small place and generally speaking factory loads have pretty good QC. There's very few times where it's been proven that a factory load blew up a gun. The times it has been proven, the factory takes the box back and examines the lot# so as to pinpoint who was on duty that time and what happened. Usually then they investigate and send out a brand new box to the customer (if he or she wants it).

Saab1911 · October 7, 2008, 05:32 PM

This is why my one and only Glock is and ever will be chambered for 9x19.

There is no report of kB! reported for 9x19.

HK123 · October 7, 2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

This is why my one and only Glock is and ever will be chambered for 9x19.

There is no report of kB! reported for 9x19.

This is true as well. Like I said though, it's easy to say "the Glock blew up on Factory ammo" with no actual proof. No stamp markings on the case, no box with unfired rounds pictured etc.

B. Lahey · October 7, 2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

PMC isn't a small place and generally speaking factory loads have pretty good QC

I've had bad luck with it before. Pop... pop... BOOM... pop. Inconsistent and so filthy it seemed like it was loaded with 50% cigar ash.

Quote:

There's very few times where it's been proven that a factory load blew up a gun.

It has happened a lot. Pretty much every ammunition manufacturer has put out bad batches and blown up guns. Most multiple times.

Quote:

Prove to me that that is a factory round.

Prove to me you don't beat your wife, until then I'm going to assume you beat her senseless nightly.

Demanding someone prove a negative is a classic trick of argument, but it means nothing. It's an unreasonable request.

Anyone have a link to the thread, I looked around that forum, but it has a billion subforums and I don't know where it would be...

HK123 · October 7, 2008, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Prove to me you don't beat your wife, until then I'm going to assume you beat her senseless nightly.

Demanding someone prove a negative is a classic trick of argument, but it means nothing. It's an unreasonable request.

Anyone have a link to the thread, I looked around that forum, but it has a billion subforums and I don't know where it would be...

No it's not. It's Libel against 2 companies until there is some evidence given. You're just stirring up an argument. Show me these "lots of times" for factory loads blowing up a gun. In not one case anywhere that I've ever seen, has there been any incontrovertable proof that it was the factory load. In almost all Glock cases it was later proved to be an improper loading by some bubba down the lane.

/END

B. Lahey · October 7, 2008, 06:20 PM

I just want to see the original thread, anyone got a link?

B. Lahey · October 7, 2008, 06:26 PM

If you want examples, just do an internet search for "X recall" with X being the name of a random ammunition maker.

Just in the last few years Fiocchi, Winchester, and Speer have put out dangerous, defective batches, and those are just the ones I've heard of. There were probably plenty more.

Factory ammo is safer than the ammo of your average bubba handloader, but it's not perfect. There is no such thing as perfection with mass-produced products.

Rager · October 7, 2008, 06:42 PM

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=932453

Lots of jaw jacking goin' on.

Yo, Saab1911, in fact some of the first Glocks with problems were 9X19. No cites, though I may find some. LEOs shooting reloads.

Some of the first warnings, for reloaders from Glock officially, was to only reuse your own brass, once. AFAI recall, the G17 2nd generation was brought out to address the issue.

The other issue, for those that are interested, is the purchase of gun show reloads. I've heard a story or two and I'd never go for any.

NWPilgrim · October 7, 2008, 06:48 PM

Perhaps a more accurate title would be:

"Alleged PMC ammo explodes in Glock but shooter is spared serious injury"

Actually I am more confident in my handloads than I am factory loads. I double check every powder charge, bullet seating depth, etc.

There are many reasons that could lead to the failure of the case, none of them having to do with the firearm. that is the firearm is design to shoot ammo in SAAMI specs.

- Perfectly fine factory ammo but the bullet got pushed back into the case. This can cause massive over-pressure. It could have been dropped on the bullet nose. Or, as some police departments discovered, repeatedly clearing a pistol day after day can cause the unfired first cartridge to have bullet setback and eventually massive over-pressure.

- Factory machines could have put too little or too much powder in the case, both can lead to over-pressure, and too little can even lead to detonation.

- Factory could have seated the bullet too deep and not caught it. Very few factories are set up to inspect every single item they produce. Some of the ammunition factories ar producing millions of rounds. Even a 0.01% failure rate can make a lot of news with 100 blowups.

- as stated before, maye it is not a factory round but a carelessly reloaded one. All of the PMC rounds I have fired had lacquer sealed case mouths and primers. I did not see any of the red sealer on those cases, ut it could just be the angle of the photo.

**Shane Tuttle** · October 7, 2008, 06:49 PM

1. Anybody that stakes claim that a Glock Kabooming these days are already going to be under a microscope due to Glock's history of being in the spotlight on the issue.

2. If it's proven to be a factory load, then I think it will only get deeper on the investigation front.

3. If it's proven to be a reload, then the poor sap that claimed it to be a factory load is in deep cow-pies.

These three items are obvious. Two items that bother me is this:

1. Why did the alleged Kaboom happen to a .45ACP instead of the "commonly" known .40S&W?

2. The closeup of one of the rounds, although blurry, appear that the end of the case isn't crimped. I only lightly crimp my rounds and I don't recall having the same shape as does the alleged factory round.

HK123 · October 7, 2008, 06:52 PM

the one failure of 9mm glocks was the phase 3 malfunction that plagued the NYPDs G19s for a few years. The extractor has been changed for a different design and the slide has been cut differently now to prevent the gun from locking up in the same way. I did have a link, but it's lost in my recent cleanup of all my bookmarks.

As for factory recalls it's expected, but again there hasn't been one Glock malfunction that could be attrbuted directly to factory ammo. It's either been the Gun having a design flaw or a reload that was done improperly (i.e. dangerous pressure levels). Having said that you can see that I'm not defending the Glock as I will not recommend the .45 and .40 caliber glock pistols to anyone. It's a personal choice and I happen to stick to my guns (no pun intended) when it comes to that. It could be the PMC ammo, but is it too hard to post a picture of the blown up casing with the stamp/markings on the bottom?

The real question is, did the gun cause it or was it the ammo? Usually it's the ammo, a gun that was working one minute and blows up the next tells me the gun is fine.

Night Watch · October 7, 2008, 06:53 PM

Amazing how prescient some of you guys are!

Young shooter, new gun, he still has the rest of the box of PMC ammo. What? None of you have ever heard of overcharged PMC rounds? Where have you been for the last decade - living on an island?

Personally, I prefer to believe that the OP is telling the truth; and, I won't suspect reloads until someone shows me otherwise. Geeze, what a tough audience!

BanditSRT8 · October 7, 2008, 06:56 PM

Factory load or not, you can see that it was the cartridge that failed.

I had a dud myself todayin 45ACP in my S&WDK. **** happens as they say... no matter who is making the ammo.

B. Lahey · October 7, 2008, 07:02 PM

OK, I read the first few pages and this seems fishy:

Quote:

then the pistol detonated knocking me senseless to the ground

Do kabooms usually knock people to the ground? He also states something like "the force of the round was directed into me and knocked me over" or something like that, and when questioned he just started cursing people randomly.

I've only seen kabooms on video, but in all of them the person was not blasted backwards like some kind of wacky action film.

HK123 · October 7, 2008, 07:15 PM

Yeah it's a bit fishy. Either way it's not something to worry about. Glocks are safe pistols, but don't use cheap ammo.

I've never used PMC, always WWB or Blazer (mostly WWB). Personally I think that for the price WWB is quite good quality, dirty maybe...

Night Watch · October 7, 2008, 07:15 PM

Now read a few more pages, it all gets explained toward the end of the thread; and, it makes sense, too.

Uncleguntrumpet · October 7, 2008, 07:19 PM

I had some PMC .45 acp ammunition in 185gr. JHP that when tried to load into a Taurus PT 145 went "thunk!" wedged inside the pistol. I thought it was the pistol. My neighbor tried the ammunition in his Para, guess what it went "thunk!" and wedged in the pistol. In fact the Para had enough leverage that it pushed the bullet noticeably into the cartridge case. My neighbor purchased the ammunition from me to use in a revolver that he owns. I wrote to PMC, however did not receive a reply. Should I warn my neighbor?

Rager · October 7, 2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

It could be the PMC ammo, but is it too hard to post a picture of the blown up casing with the stamp/markings on the bottom?

It is a relatively new gun for the fella, he's typing single handed and the pics are taken with his cell phone. Pics another member uploaded, the OP couldn't post them for some reason.

My only question, to the thread, is how easy is it to chamber/ mix up, a .45 ACP with a .45GAP? I've touched little .45 ammo- and no GAP stuff.

B. Lahey · October 7, 2008, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Now read a few more pages, it all gets explained toward the end of the thread; and, it makes sense, too.

OK, so his story changed quite a bit at the end. Now he says only some small pieces hit him and stunned him.

HK123 · October 7, 2008, 07:49 PM

Lesson for today is...PMC ammo is bad and Don't buy a Glock in anything other than 9mm.

SV_shooter · October 7, 2008, 09:54 PM

I just wanted to say I own as of yesterday a lnib g-21 from a friend who was gonna pawn it. I can't wait to heal so I try this large frame glock, as I only have a G-35 & 26. I have 3 dillon progressive loaders all with power checks and I lean over the press and visually inspect the case before I crank the handle. I load primarily pistol and some .223 as well as shotshells for 3 gun. I loaded 9x19, .38SA, .40, and or course .45 acp. I had a squib or 2 over the years, but never a double charge or a single malfunction with 10's of thousands of rounds through mostly my .40 g35 where again the pressure just isn't there... My 26 is a glovebox pistol and when I have shot it I am not concerned with the pressure of my 125pf loads. I wouldn't even worry about firing +P out of the lil gun. Ammo mfgs have had QC issues and I will say PMC is for Jennings and other saturday night specials that you expect to blow up anyway! Not a new Glock though...

45_Shooter · October 7, 2008, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Is it pretty much impossible for factory ammo to be defective??

Or could it possibly happen?

Quote:

I've never used PMC, always WWB or Blazer (mostly WWB). Personally I think that for the price WWB is quite good quality, dirty maybe...

Actually, earlier this year I had a WWB 100 round pack from Wally World with one round that had a primer seated backwards. I didn't see it loading the mag, and I actually thought it was a squib when it went off. Kinda scarred up the breechface on one of my Gov't models.

I'm surprised to see a kB! on a Glock .45. In this case I think it may be ammo, or I guess it's possible that the feed ramp was cut too aggressively. If it was a .40 I'd say the shooter just rolled snake eyes that day, but the .45 isn't known for this issue.

October 7, 2008, 05:06 PM	#1
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	Brand New Glock 21 SF explodes while shooting PMC Ammo -- PICS There is a big thread on Glocktalk.com in the General Glocking forum currently, about a brand new Glock 21 SF that failed recently allegedly just shooting PMC factory hardball ammo. There is a lot of speculation going on at Glocktalk as to whether the gun itself failed, or whether the ammo was defective. Here are some photos of the damaged gun and the exploded round: The owner reports that his index finger that was on the trigger is numb, and has no feeling now. .

October 7, 2008, 05:32 PM	#5
Saab1911 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2008 Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia Posts: 1,176	This is why my one and only Glock is and ever will be chambered for 9x19. There is no report of kB! reported for 9x19. __________________ 45 ACP: Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 5" barrel 357 magnum: Smith & Wesson 686 6" barrel 9x19: CZ 75B, Glock 17 22lr: Ruger Mk III/45

October 7, 2008, 06:42 PM	#11
Rager Junior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 7	Glock forum link http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=932453 Lots of jaw jacking goin' on. Yo, Saab1911, in fact some of the first Glocks with problems were 9X19. No cites, though I may find some. LEOs shooting reloads. Some of the first warnings, for reloaders from Glock officially, was to only reuse your own brass, once. AFAI recall, the G17 2nd generation was brought out to address the issue. The other issue, for those that are interested, is the purchase of gun show reloads. I've heard a story or two and I'd never go for any. Last edited by Rager; October 7, 2008 at 06:47 PM. Reason: pointing at the wrong d00d

October 7, 2008, 06:49 PM	#13
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	1. Anybody that stakes claim that a Glock Kabooming these days are already going to be under a microscope due to Glock's history of being in the spotlight on the issue. 2. If it's proven to be a factory load, then I think it will only get deeper on the investigation front. 3. If it's proven to be a reload, then the poor sap that claimed it to be a factory load is in deep cow-pies. These three items are obvious. Two items that bother me is this: 1. Why did the alleged Kaboom happen to a .45ACP instead of the "commonly" known .40S&W? 2. The closeup of one of the rounds, although blurry, appear that the end of the case isn't crimped. I only lightly crimp my rounds and I don't recall having the same shape as does the alleged factory round. __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

October 7, 2008, 06:53 PM	#15
Night Watch Registration in progress Join Date: June 30, 2005 Posts: 369	Amazing how prescient some of you guys are! Young shooter, new gun, he still has the rest of the box of PMC ammo. What? None of you have ever heard of overcharged PMC rounds? Where have you been for the last decade - living on an island? Personally, I prefer to believe that the OP is telling the truth; and, I won't suspect reloads until someone shows me otherwise. Geeze, what a tough audience! __________________ 'Things go wrong. The odds catch up. Probability is like gravity; and, you cannot negotiate with gravity. One other thing: God always has the last laugh. You need to remember that!'

October 7, 2008, 05:08 PM	#2
HK123 Junior member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Posts: 1,172	Prove to me that that is a factory round. Until then I call BS.

October 7, 2008, 05:15 PM	#3
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	Is it pretty much impossible for factory ammo to be defective?? Or could it possibly happen? .

October 7, 2008, 05:19 PM	#4
HK123 Junior member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Posts: 1,172	It could, but likely? No not likely. This is especially true with .45acp which is relatively low pressure compared to something like 10mm, .357sig, and .40s&w. Until there's evidence that it was a factory round then I will say it's a reload in which case the blame rests on the one who loaded it up. That's why Glock's manual states that it's not a good idea to shoot reloaded ammunition and you should only use fresh factory rounds. PMC isn't a small place and generally speaking factory loads have pretty good QC. There's very few times where it's been proven that a factory load blew up a gun. The times it has been proven, the factory takes the box back and examines the lot# so as to pinpoint who was on duty that time and what happened. Usually then they investigate and send out a brand new box to the customer (if he or she wants it).

October 7, 2008, 06:20 PM	#9
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	I just want to see the original thread, anyone got a link?

October 7, 2008, 06:26 PM	#10
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	If you want examples, just do an internet search for "X recall" with X being the name of a random ammunition maker. Just in the last few years Fiocchi, Winchester, and Speer have put out dangerous, defective batches, and those are just the ones I've heard of. There were probably plenty more. Factory ammo is safer than the ammo of your average bubba handloader, but it's not perfect. There is no such thing as perfection with mass-produced products.

October 7, 2008, 06:48 PM	#12
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	Perhaps a more accurate title would be: "Alleged PMC ammo explodes in Glock but shooter is spared serious injury" Actually I am more confident in my handloads than I am factory loads. I double check every powder charge, bullet seating depth, etc. There are many reasons that could lead to the failure of the case, none of them having to do with the firearm. that is the firearm is design to shoot ammo in SAAMI specs. - Perfectly fine factory ammo but the bullet got pushed back into the case. This can cause massive over-pressure. It could have been dropped on the bullet nose. Or, as some police departments discovered, repeatedly clearing a pistol day after day can cause the unfired first cartridge to have bullet setback and eventually massive over-pressure. - Factory machines could have put too little or too much powder in the case, both can lead to over-pressure, and too little can even lead to detonation. - Factory could have seated the bullet too deep and not caught it. Very few factories are set up to inspect every single item they produce. Some of the ammunition factories ar producing millions of rounds. Even a 0.01% failure rate can make a lot of news with 100 blowups. - as stated before, maye it is not a factory round but a carelessly reloaded one. All of the PMC rounds I have fired had lacquer sealed case mouths and primers. I did not see any of the red sealer on those cases, ut it could just be the angle of the photo.

October 7, 2008, 06:52 PM	#14
HK123 Junior member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Posts: 1,172	the one failure of 9mm glocks was the phase 3 malfunction that plagued the NYPDs G19s for a few years. The extractor has been changed for a different design and the slide has been cut differently now to prevent the gun from locking up in the same way. I did have a link, but it's lost in my recent cleanup of all my bookmarks. As for factory recalls it's expected, but again there hasn't been one Glock malfunction that could be attrbuted directly to factory ammo. It's either been the Gun having a design flaw or a reload that was done improperly (i.e. dangerous pressure levels). Having said that you can see that I'm not defending the Glock as I will not recommend the .45 and .40 caliber glock pistols to anyone. It's a personal choice and I happen to stick to my guns (no pun intended) when it comes to that. It could be the PMC ammo, but is it too hard to post a picture of the blown up casing with the stamp/markings on the bottom? The real question is, did the gun cause it or was it the ammo? Usually it's the ammo, a gun that was working one minute and blows up the next tells me the gun is fine.

October 7, 2008, 06:56 PM	#16
BanditSRT8 Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Posts: 1,135	Factory load or not, you can see that it was the cartridge that failed. I had a dud myself todayin 45ACP in my S&WDK. **** happens as they say... no matter who is making the ammo. __________________ XD9 SC 2 tone \| Glock 19 "Cogan Custom" \| HK45 \| HK P7M8 \| HK P30 \| Kimber Eclipse Pro II \| Springfield EMP \| Glock 19 TALO Limited Edition \| S&W 1911 Doug Koenig Edition Bi-Tone \| EAA Witness Elite "MATCH" \| XD40 Service V10 ported "Custom" \| Ruger LCP \| S&W M&P15 w/EOTech \| GSG-5 L \| FN FS2000 w/EOTech

October 7, 2008, 07:15 PM	#18
HK123 Junior member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Posts: 1,172	Yeah it's a bit fishy. Either way it's not something to worry about. Glocks are safe pistols, but don't use cheap ammo. I've never used PMC, always WWB or Blazer (mostly WWB). Personally I think that for the price WWB is quite good quality, dirty maybe...

October 7, 2008, 07:19 PM	#20
Uncleguntrumpet Junior Member Join Date: August 17, 2008 Posts: 3	I would like to know more what PMC .45 ? I had some PMC .45 acp ammunition in 185gr. JHP that when tried to load into a Taurus PT 145 went "thunk!" wedged inside the pistol. I thought it was the pistol. My neighbor tried the ammunition in his Para, guess what it went "thunk!" and wedged in the pistol. In fact the Para had enough leverage that it pushed the bullet noticeably into the cartridge case. My neighbor purchased the ammunition from me to use in a revolver that he owns. I wrote to PMC, however did not receive a reply. Should I warn my neighbor?

October 7, 2008, 07:49 PM	#23
HK123 Junior member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Posts: 1,172	Lesson for today is...PMC ammo is bad and Don't buy a Glock in anything other than 9mm.

October 7, 2008, 09:54 PM	#24
SV_shooter Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Location: Fear n loathing las vegas Posts: 114	Double charged reload. I just wanted to say I own as of yesterday a lnib g-21 from a friend who was gonna pawn it. I can't wait to heal so I try this large frame glock, as I only have a G-35 & 26. I have 3 dillon progressive loaders all with power checks and I lean over the press and visually inspect the case before I crank the handle. I load primarily pistol and some .223 as well as shotshells for 3 gun. I loaded 9x19, .38SA, .40, and or course .45 acp. I had a squib or 2 over the years, but never a double charge or a single malfunction with 10's of thousands of rounds through mostly my .40 g35 where again the pressure just isn't there... My 26 is a glovebox pistol and when I have shot it I am not concerned with the pressure of my 125pf loads. I wouldn't even worry about firing +P out of the lil gun. Ammo mfgs have had QC issues and I will say PMC is for Jennings and other saturday night specials that you expect to blow up anyway! Not a new Glock though...