9x21 - Tell me about this cartridge

azredhawk44 · January 22, 2009, 06:59 PM

... as well as platforms that can be converted to fire it.

Besides the 1911.

I've got an XD and a CZ. Are conversion barrels available? What about recoil springs?

Will 9x21 cartridges fit in a magazine designed for 9x19?

And, what do I get out of this cartridge that cannot be accomplished with a regular old 9? Does it make my auto a real .357 instead of a wannabe 357 sig that can't handle the heavy bullets?

goodspeed(TPF) · January 22, 2009, 07:18 PM

Well, let me tell you that I have MANY handguns in the 9mm, 9x21, 9x23, 357SIG and .356TSW caliber loadings. Usually the 9x21 is loaded to a much higher pressure than your standard 9mm and as you know the case is 2mm LONGER so as to not be put in a 9mm handgun that can not handle the pressure. BOOM is bad. Follow?

The .356 TSW was mainly chambered in a few S&W guns and some other manufacturers "test" guns. It consists of a 9x21.5 casing. Max OAL for all three is basically the same in your standard double stack 9mm sized frames so max pressure and ballistics with any given round will be IDENTICAL. Except in the case of the .356TSW as cases are thicker (some 9x21s are too) and pressures will accordingly be higher. MUCH HIGHER with THICKER brass!! In 1911 series pistols and with heavier bullets you can increase the OAL as needed. The ballistics of the .356TSW are very similar to the .357SIG FULL POWER loadings but at a MUCH higher pressure. There is also a 9x23 which can be had in mostly 1911 series pistols and is quite the fun toy. Lots of speed and kick to go around.

9x21 really does NOT make sense today as you can achieve the EXACT same ballistics (and the same HIGHER PRESSURES NOTE: EXCEEDING SAAMI RECs) with good 9mm brass, unless you use a 1911 series pistol with a greater OAL than your standard double stack 9 will allow. (equals the power of the .357M loadings with bullets up to and including the 124/125 gr loadings. .357 is MUCH better with bullets heavier than this)

.356TSW Is also mostly a collector item now as only a limited run was made for the public although some "Sky Marshals" still use and swear by it. Although for a different purpose than most civilian shooters would. I do have quite a few and absolutely LOVE the round. (equals the power of the .357M loadings with bullets up to and including the 124/125 gr loadings. .357M is MUCH better with bullets heavier than this)

9x23 makes a LOT of sense and is actually quite pleasant to shoot in a full sized 1911 compared to a 4" revolver .357 magnum. It EXCEEDS the power of .357M loadings with bullets up to and including 124/125 gr loadings.) I have NO loading experience with bullet weights OVER the 124/125 gr weight as I see no use for it in my shooting endeavors and you lose the advantage of a longer case (capacity) by filling it with bullet.

Standard 9mm pistols CAN have their barrels reamed by a competent gunsmith to accept 9x21 brass. Usually all else that is required is a stiffer recoil spring. The barrel is usually STAMPED 9x21 by the gunsmith. Normal 9mm can still be shot out of said barrel safely. Just as you can shoot .40S&W out of a 10mm barrel. Or .38s out of a .357M.

I hope this gives you a bit more info than you had before. If you have any more questions please feel free to ask away. The HOT9 is one of my favorite loadings.

P.S. 357SIG is a hell of a round compared to the 9x21. TRUST me. *says Axel Foley*

If you want heavier bullets than 124/125 then the HOT9 is really not the thing for you.

azredhawk44 · January 22, 2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Standard 9mm pistols CAN have their barrels reamed by a competent gunsmith to accept 9x21 brass. Usually all else that is required is a stiffer recoil spring. The barrel is usually STAMPED 9x21 by the gunsmith. Normal 9mm can still be shot out of said barrel safely. Just as you can shoot .40S&W out of a 10mm barrel. Or .38s out of a .357.

Hold on there...

Shooting .40 out of a 10mm barrel involves a change in headspace. Since the cartridge headspaces off the mouth in a well functioning gun, a .40 would sink too far into the chamber unless somehow it was snagged by the extractor and held against the breech face.

I would assume 9x21 and 9x19 would share a similar relationship, since 9x19 headspaces off the case mouth also.

38/357 relationship has little bearing on .40/10 or 9x19/9x21/9x23 unless shot in revolvers wherein moonclips provide headspacing requirements.

Sounds like if I want a bigger, badder auto I need to go 10mm. If 9x21 can't load a 158gr minimum weight bullet, I don't think I'm interested in it.

Webleymkv · January 22, 2009, 07:34 PM

Most 9x21 loadings that I see are only moderately warmer than standard 9x19 (similar to the 9mm Largo) and are not in the same class as the .38 Super, .356 TSW, or 9x23 Winchester. My understanding is that the 9x21 exists because most pistols in 9x19 can be easily converted to it (usually just a barrel swap/ream the chamber). It's quite popular in certain countires (mainly Europe) where "military" calibers such as 9x19 are illegal. As long as you don't live in a jurisdiction with such asnine laws, I see no advantage to this cartridge over the 9x19. If you want a significantly hotter 9mm, you need to look at .357 SIG, .38 Super, 9x23 Winchester, or 9x25 Dillon.

goodspeed(TPF) · January 22, 2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Shooting .40 out of a 10mm barrel involves a change in headspace. Since the cartridge headspaces off the mouth in a well functioning gun, a .40 would sink too far into the chamber unless somehow it was snagged by the extractor and held against the breech face.

Yes, the extractor will hold the round in place. No it will NOT sink into the chamber. Seriously. Honest Injun. No offense meant to actual Injuns.

158/160gr+ bullet weights are NOT for the "HOT9". Sorry my friend. Stick with the .40S&W/10mm as they are IDEAL in this bullet weight. So is the .45. 165gr .45 are nice. (speaking of autoloaders)

goodspeed(TPF) · January 22, 2009, 07:36 PM

MMMmmm.... 9x25 Dillon.

Webleymkv · January 22, 2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Shooting .40 out of a 10mm barrel involves a change in headspace. Since the cartridge headspaces off the mouth in a well functioning gun, a .40 would sink too far into the chamber unless somehow it was snagged by the extractor and held against the breech face.

Yes, the extractor will hold the round in place.

This will work some of the time. However, the extractor holding a relatively small part of the cartridge rim on one side is not as secure as properly headspacing and isn't considered safe in most pistols. An exception to this would be the Springfield Omega in 10mm, this gun had dual extractors and thusly held the cartridge securely enough to fire .40S&W ammunition.

http://www.thegunzone.com/10v40.html

WESHOOT2 · January 23, 2009, 12:23 PM

Based on what little you've posted about your desired performance envelope, you seem to be describing the 10mm cartridge.
Bullet weights from 135g up to 230g, with a .400" diameter, going fast.....

I load 9x19 and 9x21 cartridges side by side, and what is possible at 9x19 OAL is possible in either.
But I've never got 158s to fit (although I have some swaged 158g LSWC-HP that mike at .3545"....).

SuperKord · January 23, 2009, 05:43 PM

While we're on the subject, Can you shoot 9x19 out of a 9x21 barrel? I just picked up an EAA Witness with a 9x21 barrel, but I cant seem to find any 9x21 ammo, all that is around these parts is 9x19. Any help would be appreciated.

-c/Kord!

Webleymkv · January 23, 2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

While we're on the subject, Can you shoot 9x19 out of a 9x21 barrel?

No, you can't. 9x19 will not headspace properly in a 9x21 barrel. Your best option would be to get a 9x19 barrel.

WESHOOT2 · January 24, 2009, 08:09 AM

I have.
I do not recommend it.

Check www.grafs.com for factory 9x21 ammo.
EAA offers 9x19 barrels. So might a few other barrel-makers.

KansasShooter · March 10, 2009, 03:03 PM

I have a CZ 75 / Witness Silver Team in 9x21. Bought it in 1993 used from an IPSC shooter that was changing to a high capacity 45.

The only downside to this round that I can determine is that no one in the US sells factory loaded ammo (ok, somebody might, but I haven't seen it ever) - so you must reload for it. This limits the potential purchasers for the gun severely and thus the value drops significantly over time. I paid $1200 (used) for this gun set up with a scope / compensator / trigger and 4 high capacity mags in 1993 - and that was significantly less than the gun shop was getting new. I'd be lucky to get $700 now if I could find a buyer at all. Contrast that with a buddy I shot with on Sunday. He paid $125 for his Colt 1911 years ago, it is probably worth $1100 now.

My advice - take up reloading and buy your brass from Starline at $20 / 1000 more than 9x19. If you really don't want to do that, buy a new barrel, lighter spring and turn it into a 9x19. I'll probably have to do that if I ever decide to sell mine.

The advantage to 9x21 over 9x19 is that 9x21 can be loaded up to Major power factor for IPSC competition.

Knowing all this, I probably would NOT buy a 9x21 again - 38 Super is probably better overall.

WESHOOT2 · March 12, 2009, 06:39 AM

Fiocchi offers 'factory' 9x21 ammo.

I can load either 9x19 or 9x21 to 'Major' for USPSA competition.

mnw42 · March 12, 2009, 11:02 AM

IIRC the 9x21 exists for those that want a 9mm pistol, but live in countries that disallow the civilian use of military cartridges.

Jim Watson · March 12, 2009, 11:55 AM

My understanding:

1. The 9x21 was developed for sale in Italy where private ownership of firearms in "military calibers" is not allowed. (Or was not at the time, I don't know what an Italian can buy now.) OAL and ballistics were the same as 9x19 so the same actions, magazines, recoil springs, sights etc. would work. No difference in the guns except the chamber.

2. USPSA concluded that loading 9x19 to Major Power Factor (then 175) required handloads at higher pressure than SAAMI US industrial standards, and disallowed the practice on grounds of safety.

3. Shooters observed that the 9x21 did not have a SAAMI specification and used that as a loophole to load the caliber to whatever it took to make Major. They started campaigning overloaded Tanfoglios and CZs so as to get high magazine capacity and Major Power Factor scoring. It was usual to see a shooter replacing a broken slide stop during a match. Some gunsmiths claimed the CZ action could be "timed" to not break slide stops, but there were a lot who could not or did not bother. To the point that they weren't even slide stops any more, just a rod through the cam track. IPSC shooters don't use slide stops anyhow.

4. Para-Ordnance, CMC/STI/SVI, and Caspian came out with high capacity magazines and frames on the 1911 action length. It became possible to buy a gun that held a lot of .38 Supers which took less extreme overloading to make Major. The 9x21 raceguns fell out of favor.

5. USPSA reduced Major Power Factor to 165. More powders came out. It became apparent that 9x19 could be loaded to the new Major Power Factor without overstressing a good quality gun. There are even SAAMI compliant 9mm Major loads. USPSA once more allowed 9mm Major in Open Divison. We now see such things as Glock raceguns and 1911 pattern guns shooting long loaded 9mm P for the cheap brass.

I think the 9x21 is reduced to a novelty; shootable if you want to.

rimshoes · November 5, 2009, 11:28 PM

I have come to a rather sad realization that the manufacturers of ammo are going to base their livelihood on the military cartridges and the civilian cartridges are going to be secondary AT BEST.

This means 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W, 357 sig (hopefully) and the .380 ACP (already a hard round to find) will be the ones set up for retooling on the
only line most of the manufacturers hold on to.

It is a very sad state of reality.

The wonderful cartridges are falling by the wayside. I just sold my 10mm's (I kept only one, a 1066). I sold off all my 38 supers (I kept only one, a gold cup super elite) and I sold off all my 357 sigs (I kept only one, a cougar)

I no longer have any 45 ACPs as the ammo is becoming pretty price like.

This basically leaves the 40 S&W and the 9mm for semi autos. HOW SAD.

Even reloading is getting dumb. I see gun shops with their small and large primers under lock and key now.

January 22, 2009, 06:59 PM	#1
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	9x21 - Tell me about this cartridge ... as well as platforms that can be converted to fire it. Besides the 1911. I've got an XD and a CZ. Are conversion barrels available? What about recoil springs? Will 9x21 cartridges fit in a magazine designed for 9x19? And, what do I get out of this cartridge that cannot be accomplished with a regular old 9? Does it make my auto a real .357 instead of a wannabe 357 sig that can't handle the heavy bullets?

January 22, 2009, 07:18 PM	#2
goodspeed(TPF) Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 1,162	Well, let me tell you that I have MANY handguns in the 9mm, 9x21, 9x23, 357SIG and .356TSW caliber loadings. Usually the 9x21 is loaded to a much higher pressure than your standard 9mm and as you know the case is 2mm LONGER so as to not be put in a 9mm handgun that can not handle the pressure. BOOM is bad. Follow? The .356 TSW was mainly chambered in a few S&W guns and some other manufacturers "test" guns. It consists of a 9x21.5 casing. Max OAL for all three is basically the same in your standard double stack 9mm sized frames so max pressure and ballistics with any given round will be IDENTICAL. Except in the case of the .356TSW as cases are thicker (some 9x21s are too) and pressures will accordingly be higher. MUCH HIGHER with THICKER brass!! In 1911 series pistols and with heavier bullets you can increase the OAL as needed. The ballistics of the .356TSW are very similar to the .357SIG FULL POWER loadings but at a MUCH higher pressure. There is also a 9x23 which can be had in mostly 1911 series pistols and is quite the fun toy. Lots of speed and kick to go around. 9x21 really does NOT make sense today as you can achieve the EXACT same ballistics (and the same HIGHER PRESSURES NOTE: EXCEEDING SAAMI RECs) with good 9mm brass, unless you use a 1911 series pistol with a greater OAL than your standard double stack 9 will allow. (equals the power of the .357M loadings with bullets up to and including the 124/125 gr loadings. .357 is MUCH better with bullets heavier than this) .356TSW Is also mostly a collector item now as only a limited run was made for the public although some "Sky Marshals" still use and swear by it. Although for a different purpose than most civilian shooters would. I do have quite a few and absolutely LOVE the round. (equals the power of the .357M loadings with bullets up to and including the 124/125 gr loadings. .357M is MUCH better with bullets heavier than this) 9x23 makes a LOT of sense and is actually quite pleasant to shoot in a full sized 1911 compared to a 4" revolver .357 magnum. It EXCEEDS the power of .357M loadings with bullets up to and including 124/125 gr loadings.) I have NO loading experience with bullet weights OVER the 124/125 gr weight as I see no use for it in my shooting endeavors and you lose the advantage of a longer case (capacity) by filling it with bullet. Standard 9mm pistols CAN have their barrels reamed by a competent gunsmith to accept 9x21 brass. Usually all else that is required is a stiffer recoil spring. The barrel is usually STAMPED 9x21 by the gunsmith. Normal 9mm can still be shot out of said barrel safely. Just as you can shoot .40S&W out of a 10mm barrel. Or .38s out of a .357M. I hope this gives you a bit more info than you had before. If you have any more questions please feel free to ask away. The HOT9 is one of my favorite loadings. P.S. 357SIG is a hell of a round compared to the 9x21. TRUST me. says Axel Foley If you want heavier bullets than 124/125 then the HOT9 is really not the thing for you. __________________ It's a trick. Get an axe. http://www.thepiratefleet.com/index.shtml Last edited by goodspeed(TPF); January 22, 2009 at 07:31 PM.

January 22, 2009, 07:36 PM	#6
goodspeed(TPF) Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 1,162	MMMmmm.... 9x25 Dillon. __________________ It's a trick. Get an axe. http://www.thepiratefleet.com/index.shtml

January 23, 2009, 12:23 PM	#8
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	right Based on what little you've posted about your desired performance envelope, you seem to be describing the 10mm cartridge. Bullet weights from 135g up to 230g, with a .400" diameter, going fast..... I load 9x19 and 9x21 cartridges side by side, and what is possible at 9x19 OAL is possible in either. But I've never got 158s to fit (although I have some swaged 158g LSWC-HP that mike at .3545"....). __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

January 23, 2009, 05:43 PM	#9
SuperKord Member Join Date: August 20, 2008 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 25	While we're on the subject, Can you shoot 9x19 out of a 9x21 barrel? I just picked up an EAA Witness with a 9x21 barrel, but I cant seem to find any 9x21 ammo, all that is around these parts is 9x19. Any help would be appreciated. -c/Kord! __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

January 22, 2009, 07:34 PM	#4
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Most 9x21 loadings that I see are only moderately warmer than standard 9x19 (similar to the 9mm Largo) and are not in the same class as the .38 Super, .356 TSW, or 9x23 Winchester. My understanding is that the 9x21 exists because most pistols in 9x19 can be easily converted to it (usually just a barrel swap/ream the chamber). It's quite popular in certain countires (mainly Europe) where "military" calibers such as 9x19 are illegal. As long as you don't live in a jurisdiction with such asnine laws, I see no advantage to this cartridge over the 9x19. If you want a significantly hotter 9mm, you need to look at .357 SIG, .38 Super, 9x23 Winchester, or 9x25 Dillon.

January 24, 2009, 08:09 AM	#11
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	actually I can I have. I do not recommend it. Check www.grafs.com for factory 9x21 ammo. EAA offers 9x19 barrels. So might a few other barrel-makers. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

March 10, 2009, 03:03 PM	#12
KansasShooter Junior Member Join Date: March 9, 2009 Posts: 1	9x21 I have a CZ 75 / Witness Silver Team in 9x21. Bought it in 1993 used from an IPSC shooter that was changing to a high capacity 45. The only downside to this round that I can determine is that no one in the US sells factory loaded ammo (ok, somebody might, but I haven't seen it ever) - so you must reload for it. This limits the potential purchasers for the gun severely and thus the value drops significantly over time. I paid $1200 (used) for this gun set up with a scope / compensator / trigger and 4 high capacity mags in 1993 - and that was significantly less than the gun shop was getting new. I'd be lucky to get $700 now if I could find a buyer at all. Contrast that with a buddy I shot with on Sunday. He paid $125 for his Colt 1911 years ago, it is probably worth $1100 now. My advice - take up reloading and buy your brass from Starline at $20 / 1000 more than 9x19. If you really don't want to do that, buy a new barrel, lighter spring and turn it into a 9x19. I'll probably have to do that if I ever decide to sell mine. The advantage to 9x21 over 9x19 is that 9x21 can be loaded up to Major power factor for IPSC competition. Knowing all this, I probably would NOT buy a 9x21 again - 38 Super is probably better overall.

March 12, 2009, 06:39 AM	#13
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Fiocchi offers 'factory' 9x21 ammo. I can load either 9x19 or 9x21 to 'Major' for USPSA competition. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

March 12, 2009, 11:02 AM	#14
mnw42 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2008 Location: Bucks Co., PA Posts: 210	IIRC the 9x21 exists for those that want a 9mm pistol, but live in countries that disallow the civilian use of military cartridges.

March 12, 2009, 11:55 AM	#15
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,548	My understanding: 1. The 9x21 was developed for sale in Italy where private ownership of firearms in "military calibers" is not allowed. (Or was not at the time, I don't know what an Italian can buy now.) OAL and ballistics were the same as 9x19 so the same actions, magazines, recoil springs, sights etc. would work. No difference in the guns except the chamber. 2. USPSA concluded that loading 9x19 to Major Power Factor (then 175) required handloads at higher pressure than SAAMI US industrial standards, and disallowed the practice on grounds of safety. 3. Shooters observed that the 9x21 did not have a SAAMI specification and used that as a loophole to load the caliber to whatever it took to make Major. They started campaigning overloaded Tanfoglios and CZs so as to get high magazine capacity and Major Power Factor scoring. It was usual to see a shooter replacing a broken slide stop during a match. Some gunsmiths claimed the CZ action could be "timed" to not break slide stops, but there were a lot who could not or did not bother. To the point that they weren't even slide stops any more, just a rod through the cam track. IPSC shooters don't use slide stops anyhow. 4. Para-Ordnance, CMC/STI/SVI, and Caspian came out with high capacity magazines and frames on the 1911 action length. It became possible to buy a gun that held a lot of .38 Supers which took less extreme overloading to make Major. The 9x21 raceguns fell out of favor. 5. USPSA reduced Major Power Factor to 165. More powders came out. It became apparent that 9x19 could be loaded to the new Major Power Factor without overstressing a good quality gun. There are even SAAMI compliant 9mm Major loads. USPSA once more allowed 9mm Major in Open Divison. We now see such things as Glock raceguns and 1911 pattern guns shooting long loaded 9mm P for the cheap brass. I think the 9x21 is reduced to a novelty; shootable if you want to.

November 5, 2009, 11:28 PM	#16
rimshoes Junior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Posts: 1	re: 9x21 and such I have come to a rather sad realization that the manufacturers of ammo are going to base their livelihood on the military cartridges and the civilian cartridges are going to be secondary AT BEST. This means 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W, 357 sig (hopefully) and the .380 ACP (already a hard round to find) will be the ones set up for retooling on the only line most of the manufacturers hold on to. It is a very sad state of reality. The wonderful cartridges are falling by the wayside. I just sold my 10mm's (I kept only one, a 1066). I sold off all my 38 supers (I kept only one, a gold cup super elite) and I sold off all my 357 sigs (I kept only one, a cougar) I no longer have any 45 ACPs as the ammo is becoming pretty price like. This basically leaves the 40 S&W and the 9mm for semi autos. HOW SAD. Even reloading is getting dumb. I see gun shops with their small and large primers under lock and key now.