Building your own firearm from scratch, Legal?

Housezealot · July 22, 2009, 01:00 PM

A while back I saw a book on how to machine your own gattling gun at a gun show, the dealer was explaining to a guy that it was perfectly legal to build a firearm from scratch as long as it was not for resale and the gun itself didn't violate any restrictions (I think a gattling gun is not considered a machine gun as long as its not motorized).
that can't be right can it? it seems like manufacturing your own firearms is a great way to get all your room and board free for many years.

hoytinak · July 22, 2009, 01:05 PM

Yes it is legal (check your local laws first though as I'm sure some states it's illegal

) to build your own firearms. Granted you have to go by the law....ie. if you make a SBR you have to pay the $200 tax and do the Form 1, you can't make it full-auto. I've built myself a couple of AK's over the years, using my homemade receivers and the parts kits you can buy (still gotta have the correct number of US parts to be legal).

Housezealot · July 22, 2009, 01:12 PM

That really suprises me, good to know if nothing else.
well mabey someday I'll have access to a machine shop (and quite a bit more know how than I do now).
I think it would be really cool to have built such a thing from nothing more than steel stock.
oh well, another dream project for when the kids are grown and I actually have spare time and money.

grymster2007 · July 22, 2009, 01:23 PM

I think hoytinak nailed the legality issue. I have some ideas for guns that I hope to be trying out when I retire in a few years. I can make most of the parts I'll require on conventional lathes and mills, but I think I'll want a CNC milling machine at some point.

In the past I've made quite a number of gun parts and it's a lot of fun for people who like guns, tinkering and machining.

dakotashooter2 · July 24, 2009, 04:07 PM

So for only $200 I can make my zipgun legal?? LOL

Chipperman · July 24, 2009, 04:24 PM

The $200 is for an NFA tax stamp. If the gun you make does not violate any NFA rules, then you don't need to pay it.

Housezealot · July 24, 2009, 04:43 PM

so if it doesn't violate any rules and its not a pistol you don't have to bother with notifing any legal athorities?

TRX · July 29, 2009, 07:43 AM

Homebuilt firearms aren't regulated much by the Fed. You can build anything you want, as long as it's otherwise legal - this mostly concerns barrel length and fully-automatic laws. There's an ugly gray area about selling anything you built unless you have the proper ATF FFL, but as long as you keep them you're okay.

There are subfora with page scans of ATF letters on various AK forums - theakforum.net, gunco.net, etc.

Jbar4Ranch · July 29, 2009, 09:55 AM

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a federal or state agency. [18 U. S. C. 922( o), (r), (v), and 923, 27 CFR 178.39, 178.40, 178.41 and 179.105]

sandman · December 19, 2009, 09:05 PM

Anyone know what the "gray areas" are when you have produced a bolt action and decide you don't need it anymore? Won't bring much as parts and nobody buys a non legal gun, so I thought I should have some sort of idea of what I am up against in case I loose my job again. I managed to keep it through the last unemployment but don't have the funds to shoot it anymore, so what is the point in keeping it. Does the law say I have to destroy it or donate it to my local LEO for their entertainment? Didn't make it to take up space in the gun safe and was wondering what my options were. In the event of my death, what then? Do I have to add it to my will or will it just be ok to assume that my only child gets it with the rest of my humble belongings?

Bill DeShivs · December 19, 2009, 09:44 PM

Sandman
Is your name on it?

Bill DeShivs · December 19, 2009, 09:45 PM

Manually cranked Gatlings are not machine guns.
You can legally build pistols, too.

**44 AMP** · December 20, 2009, 01:22 PM

And decided later you didn't need it, you could sell it, just like any other gun you own (provided it meets all legal requirements). The "gray area" is about whether or not you are a "manfacturer" and need the proper Federal/State licenses.

Ther are (or were) a small number of custom rifle makers in the country, who operate without the Federal license (the same one Remington, S&W, etc.need to have) and the BATFE doesn't care about them (as manufacturers), because the volume of their business is so low. I believe they need dealers licenses, but not the manufacturer's license. At one time (back in the 1970s) the ATF said that making up to 10 guns a year was ok with out a mfg license. I do not know if that is still the case, and it would be a very good idea to check the current rulings.

A gun you make must meet the Federal requirements (bbl length, #of US madeparts, if applicable, etc. And it must have a (at least 3 digit) serial number, and have the maker's name and address on it.

As always, Internet advice is worth what you pay for it, so check caefully with the appropriate govt agencies, and perhaps a good lawyer, who understands firearms law, before going ahead with any questionable action.

sandman · December 20, 2009, 03:46 PM

Thanks guys, especially 44 amp.
The firearm I discribed doesn't have a serial number on it, but that is easily fixed. In fact, since I have acess to a CNC mill, I may go ahead and give it some fancy do dad of a drawing or something, depending on what I can find the code for. Adding a couple of numbers with a very small endmill isn't hard. The part about my name and address kind of give me the "willies" as I don't want to have to worry about somebody with a VHP firearm blasting a hole through my house (and on thru the garage), so maybe I need to look into that. Wonder if a post office box address will work, if that becomes needed. I don't remember ever seeing an address on a firearm, other than the city and state, but I haven't seen many "homemade" firearms either.
I have always wondered what would happen to it after I was gone, since my daughter would be hard pressed to be able to say "she built it". If she can inherit it, then that is a good thing. Maybe if unemployment strikes again, I will drag her out to the shop and rummage around for that set of plans and teach her what is needed to know about following a set of plans. Maybe she could build her own after a while hanging around the shop.
Thanks, sandman

Tom2 · December 20, 2009, 04:44 PM

Build a muzzleloader from scratch, no one cares if you do that!

knight0334 · December 20, 2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Build a muzzleloader from scratch, no one cares if you do that!

A muzzleloader isn't a "firearm" under federal law, and most state laws(except for prohibited persons and carrying in some states).

troy_mclure · December 20, 2009, 08:45 PM

sandman, not your complete address! look at all the guns, they just have city/state.

sandman · December 20, 2009, 10:45 PM

I pretty much had already decided that I wasn't going to put my address on a firearm. Not sure just how much of my name they would get either. Maybe I need to change my name legally, brand the firearm, then change my name back and keep all that paperwork handy in case anybody wants to know who Dummy Sandman actually is.
Anybody ever done the build it, brand it thing?
sandman

Gbro · December 21, 2009, 06:08 PM

Sandman, Sir.

Could we see a picture?

troy_mclure · December 21, 2009, 07:39 PM

just incorperate for a company. it only costs like $50.00.

then you can stamp the company name on it instead of yours.

**44 AMP** · December 21, 2009, 10:21 PM

I didn't mean you have to put "T. Sandman 43123 S. Gun st. Shooterville, TX" on your gun. Only that the same law that requires a serial number requires the maker's name and address. Its the GCA 1968, if I recall correctly.

Your address can be just like the other gunmakers, i.e., Name, city, state.
S&W, Springfield MA, Remington Arms, Illion, NY, etc.

Since 1968, this (and a serial #) has been a requirement on guns made (for sale) in the US. Pre 1968 guns usually had it, but there was no law requiring it.

Your gun was not made for commercial sale, and may be exempt from the requirements, but, it may be that selling it would put it in that category. Putting a serial# on it (even if its 001) seems to me to be a good idea, even if not required by law. And any gun I made (that wasn't junk

), I would be proud enough of it to put my name on it! I'm not talking about an assembled "parts gun" made on a stamped reciever, like an AK clone or something like that, but a bolt action rifle, where I made the action? Heck yes I'd put my name on it, and likely a name of its own!

I have built more than a few rifles, assembling parts, sporterising Mausers, Arisakas, Springfields, etc., and while I built the rifle, I didn't make the rifle, which is to me, a whole new level.

So, take "Sandman 001" and do what you need to do, keep it, sell it, pass it on to your daughter, just like any Remchester you bought at Walmart.

And if they ask why its the "Sandman", tell them its cause it puts its target to sleep, permanently!

phagar · December 22, 2009, 12:36 AM

Any non prohibited person can build a firearm as long as it is within both federal and state law .There is no limit as to how many can be made in a year .The BATFE "suggests" that you include a serial number for identification in case it is stolen .

To be sold homemade firearms are subject to the same regulations as a dealer .If they remain in your private ownership for a period of one year minimum they can be transfered without being on a 4473 form .

Pat Hagar

Arizona Tactical Firearms

07/02 Mfg.

July 22, 2009, 01:00 PM	#1
Housezealot Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 606	Building your own firearm from scratch, Legal? A while back I saw a book on how to machine your own gattling gun at a gun show, the dealer was explaining to a guy that it was perfectly legal to build a firearm from scratch as long as it was not for resale and the gun itself didn't violate any restrictions (I think a gattling gun is not considered a machine gun as long as its not motorized). that can't be right can it? it seems like manufacturing your own firearms is a great way to get all your room and board free for many years. __________________ We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

July 22, 2009, 01:12 PM	#3
Housezealot Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 606	That really suprises me, good to know if nothing else. well mabey someday I'll have access to a machine shop (and quite a bit more know how than I do now). I think it would be really cool to have built such a thing from nothing more than steel stock. oh well, another dream project for when the kids are grown and I actually have spare time and money. __________________ We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

July 22, 2009, 01:23 PM	#4
grymster2007 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: In the oak studded hills near Napa Posts: 2,203	I think hoytinak nailed the legality issue. I have some ideas for guns that I hope to be trying out when I retire in a few years. I can make most of the parts I'll require on conventional lathes and mills, but I think I'll want a CNC milling machine at some point. In the past I've made quite a number of gun parts and it's a lot of fun for people who like guns, tinkering and machining. __________________ grym

July 24, 2009, 04:43 PM	#7
Housezealot Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 606	so if it doesn't violate any rules and its not a pistol you don't have to bother with notifing any legal athorities? __________________ We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

July 29, 2009, 09:55 AM	#9
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a federal or state agency. [18 U. S. C. 922( o), (r), (v), and 923, 27 CFR 178.39, 178.40, 178.41 and 179.105] __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

July 22, 2009, 01:05 PM	#2
hoytinak Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 5,721	Yes it is legal (check your local laws first though as I'm sure some states it's illegal ) to build your own firearms. Granted you have to go by the law....ie. if you make a SBR you have to pay the $200 tax and do the Form 1, you can't make it full-auto. I've built myself a couple of AK's over the years, using my homemade receivers and the parts kits you can buy (still gotta have the correct number of US parts to be legal).

July 24, 2009, 04:07 PM	#5
dakotashooter2 Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2005 Posts: 498	So for only $200 I can make my zipgun legal?? LOL

July 24, 2009, 04:24 PM	#6
Chipperman Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Location: Live Free or Die, Baby! Posts: 1,550	The $200 is for an NFA tax stamp. If the gun you make does not violate any NFA rules, then you don't need to pay it.

July 29, 2009, 07:43 AM	#8
TRX Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2008 Location: central Arkansas Posts: 400	Homebuilt firearms aren't regulated much by the Fed. You can build anything you want, as long as it's otherwise legal - this mostly concerns barrel length and fully-automatic laws. There's an ugly gray area about selling anything you built unless you have the proper ATF FFL, but as long as you keep them you're okay. There are subfora with page scans of ATF letters on various AK forums - theakforum.net, gunco.net, etc.

December 19, 2009, 09:05 PM	#10
sandman Junior Member Join Date: December 19, 2009 Posts: 11	Anyone know what the "gray areas" are when you have produced a bolt action and decide you don't need it anymore? Won't bring much as parts and nobody buys a non legal gun, so I thought I should have some sort of idea of what I am up against in case I loose my job again. I managed to keep it through the last unemployment but don't have the funds to shoot it anymore, so what is the point in keeping it. Does the law say I have to destroy it or donate it to my local LEO for their entertainment? Didn't make it to take up space in the gun safe and was wondering what my options were. In the event of my death, what then? Do I have to add it to my will or will it just be ok to assume that my only child gets it with the rest of my humble belongings?

December 19, 2009, 09:44 PM	#11
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,989	Sandman Is your name on it? __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

December 19, 2009, 09:45 PM	#12
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,989	Manually cranked Gatlings are not machine guns. You can legally build pistols, too. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

December 20, 2009, 01:22 PM	#13
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,882	If you made a gun.... And decided later you didn't need it, you could sell it, just like any other gun you own (provided it meets all legal requirements). The "gray area" is about whether or not you are a "manfacturer" and need the proper Federal/State licenses. Ther are (or were) a small number of custom rifle makers in the country, who operate without the Federal license (the same one Remington, S&W, etc.need to have) and the BATFE doesn't care about them (as manufacturers), because the volume of their business is so low. I believe they need dealers licenses, but not the manufacturer's license. At one time (back in the 1970s) the ATF said that making up to 10 guns a year was ok with out a mfg license. I do not know if that is still the case, and it would be a very good idea to check the current rulings. A gun you make must meet the Federal requirements (bbl length, #of US madeparts, if applicable, etc. And it must have a (at least 3 digit) serial number, and have the maker's name and address on it. As always, Internet advice is worth what you pay for it, so check caefully with the appropriate govt agencies, and perhaps a good lawyer, who understands firearms law, before going ahead with any questionable action. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

December 20, 2009, 03:46 PM	#14
sandman Junior Member Join Date: December 19, 2009 Posts: 11	Thanks guys, especially 44 amp. The firearm I discribed doesn't have a serial number on it, but that is easily fixed. In fact, since I have acess to a CNC mill, I may go ahead and give it some fancy do dad of a drawing or something, depending on what I can find the code for. Adding a couple of numbers with a very small endmill isn't hard. The part about my name and address kind of give me the "willies" as I don't want to have to worry about somebody with a VHP firearm blasting a hole through my house (and on thru the garage), so maybe I need to look into that. Wonder if a post office box address will work, if that becomes needed. I don't remember ever seeing an address on a firearm, other than the city and state, but I haven't seen many "homemade" firearms either. I have always wondered what would happen to it after I was gone, since my daughter would be hard pressed to be able to say "she built it". If she can inherit it, then that is a good thing. Maybe if unemployment strikes again, I will drag her out to the shop and rummage around for that set of plans and teach her what is needed to know about following a set of plans. Maybe she could build her own after a while hanging around the shop. Thanks, sandman Last edited by sandman; December 20, 2009 at 03:57 PM.

December 20, 2009, 04:44 PM	#15
Tom2 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 5,676	Build a muzzleloader from scratch, no one cares if you do that! __________________ Your gun is like your nose, it is just wrong for someone else to pick it for you!

December 20, 2009, 08:45 PM	#17
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	sandman, not your complete address! look at all the guns, they just have city/state. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

December 20, 2009, 10:45 PM	#18
sandman Junior Member Join Date: December 19, 2009 Posts: 11	I pretty much had already decided that I wasn't going to put my address on a firearm. Not sure just how much of my name they would get either. Maybe I need to change my name legally, brand the firearm, then change my name back and keep all that paperwork handy in case anybody wants to know who Dummy Sandman actually is. Anybody ever done the build it, brand it thing? sandman

December 21, 2009, 06:08 PM	#19
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	Sandman, Sir. Could we see a picture? __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

December 21, 2009, 07:39 PM	#20
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	just incorperate for a company. it only costs like $50.00. then you can stamp the company name on it instead of yours. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

December 21, 2009, 10:21 PM	#21
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,882	Sorry for the confusion... I didn't mean you have to put "T. Sandman 43123 S. Gun st. Shooterville, TX" on your gun. Only that the same law that requires a serial number requires the maker's name and address. Its the GCA 1968, if I recall correctly. Your address can be just like the other gunmakers, i.e., Name, city, state. S&W, Springfield MA, Remington Arms, Illion, NY, etc. Since 1968, this (and a serial #) has been a requirement on guns made (for sale) in the US. Pre 1968 guns usually had it, but there was no law requiring it. Your gun was not made for commercial sale, and may be exempt from the requirements, but, it may be that selling it would put it in that category. Putting a serial# on it (even if its 001) seems to me to be a good idea, even if not required by law. And any gun I made (that wasn't junk), I would be proud enough of it to put my name on it! I'm not talking about an assembled "parts gun" made on a stamped reciever, like an AK clone or something like that, but a bolt action rifle, where I made the action? Heck yes I'd put my name on it, and likely a name of its own! I have built more than a few rifles, assembling parts, sporterising Mausers, Arisakas, Springfields, etc., and while I built the rifle, I didn't make the rifle, which is to me, a whole new level. So, take "Sandman 001" and do what you need to do, keep it, sell it, pass it on to your daughter, just like any Remchester you bought at Walmart. And if they ask why its the "Sandman", tell them its cause it puts its target to sleep, permanently! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

December 22, 2009, 12:36 AM	#22
phagar Member Join Date: November 20, 2009 Location: Northern Arizona Posts: 15	Any non prohibited person can build a firearm as long as it is within both federal and state law .There is no limit as to how many can be made in a year .The BATFE "suggests" that you include a serial number for identification in case it is stolen . To be sold homemade firearms are subject to the same regulations as a dealer .If they remain in your private ownership for a period of one year minimum they can be transfered without being on a 4473 form . Pat Hagar Arizona Tactical Firearms 07/02 Mfg.