Last Oakland (CA) retail gun store to close...

[Cliff]

First the San Francisco Gun Exchange, now Siegle's. Note that the gun tax was passed by Oakland voters!

Cliff

------
Oakland's last retail
gun store to close

Owner blames city's tough firearms
laws

BY SANDRA GONZALES
Mercury News

Mara Siegle, the owner of Oakland's last retail gun store, plans to
close shop today after 57 years of her family-owned business selling
handguns, hunting rifles and ammunition along with fishing gear and
clothing.

But Siegle, 45, isn't going into retirement willingly. The West Oakland
shop owner blames the city's special gun tax -- firearms dealers pay
$24 on every $1,000 in gross receipts -- for helping force her out of
business.

``All they're doing is making it harder for the honest, legal,
law-abiding citizens to go through the legal process . . . to keep and
bear arms,'' she says.

What infuriates Siegle, but delights many community leaders and
gun-control advocates, is Oakland's determined efforts to become a
national leader in curbing the availability of weapons -- from requiring
dealers to keep records of all ammunition sales to becoming the first
city in the country to ban the sale of compact handguns.

City officials and supporters say their efforts already are paying off in
fewer gun deaths -- and far fewer gun merchants.

Indeed, leaders say Oakland, saddled with a reputation for rampant
crime and crackling gun violence, is at the cutting edge of gun rules
that go well beyond state or federal requirements.

``Oakland, specifically, is one of the models that we want other cities
to follow in this country,'' said Brian Malte, a spokesman for the
western region of Handgun Control Inc., a gun-control advocacy
group. ``When you have a lot of gun-violence problems, you have to
take actions to deal with these problems.''

Yet despite a drop in Oakland's gun violence, critics of the city's
efforts insist these tactics do nothing to stop the proliferation of illegal
guns, and that the city is simply creating a hostile environment for
legitimate gun owners and dealers.

``If you're into symbolic stuff, they're the masters,'' said Stephen
Helsley, a state liaison for the National Rifle Association. ``They are
going to drive the proliferation of illegal firearms.''

But Oakland Vice-Mayor Henry Chang, who has backed many of
the gun-control measures, insists the city's aim is to stop gun-related
violence, not to drive legitimate gun dealers like Siegle out of town.

Officials point to statistics that show a marked decrease in both
homicides and number of times guns were used. In 1999, firearms
were involved in 47 of Oakland's 68 homicides (eight were
considered justifiable). By comparison, firearms were used in 109 of
the city's 153 homicides in 1995 (15 of those were considered
justifiable).

Additionally, police say 2,203 firearms were confiscated by officers in
1995, compared with 1,319 last year.

Even with these improvements, Chang says, guns remain a leading
cause of youth deaths.

``There's too much gun violence in the flatlands and we have to think
of ways to cure this,'' said the vice mayor, whose city has joined with
San Francisco in passing some of the same local ordinances.

Since adopting many of its gun-control laws, Oakland has seen the
number of dealers holding federal and local firearms licenses dwindle
from 100 nearly a decade ago to 57 in 1995 to its current six. Those
six include Siegle's, four pawn shops and one store that sells only to
police.

San Francisco, which has passed many of the same ordinances, has
only two federally licensed firearms dealers -- an auction house and a
gun store. San Jose has 14, according to police.

``They're trying to regulate gun ownership to death,'' said Chuck
Michel, a civil-rights attorney and spokesman for the California Rifle
and Pistol Association, referring to Oakland's laws. ``It's ludicrous to
think that their agenda is anything else but citizen disarmament.''

Michel's group is currently drafting three lawsuits targeting some of
the city's ordinances.

Oakland police Sgt. Gary Tolleson, who supervises the weapons unit
and also is a member of the National Rifle Association, acknowledges
``there's less gun violence and less use of firearms in Oakland.''

``Can I say that's because of these city ordinances? I don't know, but
the business-licensing ordinances have been successful in reducing the
number of licensed firearm dealers,'' said Tolleson.

Oakland has imposed a variety of gun laws. The measures include
prohibiting firearms dealers from operating in residential areas or near
places such as day care centers, schools or churches, and requiring
dealers to carry liability insurance with a minimum coverage of $1
million.

The city also was among the first few communities to ban ``Saturday
night specials'' -- or junk guns -- and also require that locking devices
be provided with all guns sold. Most cities in California, including San
Jose, now have these same ordinances in effect, and both regulations
take effect as state law within the next two years.

More recently, Oakland passed a law prohibiting minors and felons in
gun stores, and is currently looking into requiring that stolen or lost
handguns be reported. It has established a program to trace all guns
found in the hands of minors.

``They have some of the strictest laws in the United States as far as
I'm concerned,'' said Tony Cucchiaria, owner of the Traders in San
Leandro, one of the largest gun dealers in Northern California.

``Their agenda is to have a gunless society, where only criminals have
guns. None of these laws are designed to put criminals in jail, but are
preventing honest guys from buying them.''

Oakland is one of five cities in California, including Berkeley and San
Leandro, that imposes a firearms-related tax on dealers, according to
the San Francisco-based Legal Community Against Violence, which
surveyed local gun-control ordinances throughout the state.

The gun tax was passed by Oakland voters in 1998, and is one of a
slew of stringent measures the city has taken in the past several years
to tighten its grip on guns.

Yet a sign posted on the front door of Siegle's shop tells customers
and passersby how she views things: ``City of Oakland selectively
targets Siegle's with illegal tax . . . forced out of business. What's
next?''

A longtime customer browsing the store shook his head. ``I can't
believe they're targeting these people. They aren't the ones selling
illegal guns,'' said Javier Mendez, 40, of Oakland.

As for the tax, Chang said those who profit from selling guns should
also share part of the costs for treating gunshot victims, which he says
amounts to $30,000 to $35,000 for every such wound treated.

The money collected from the tax is supposed to go toward youth
non-violence education.

Supporters of the city's aggressive approach say it is long overdue.

``How many gun outlets do we need in a community?'' said Maria
Teresa Viramontes, executive director of the East Bay Public Safety
Corridor Partnership.

``Oakland recognized that the number of homicides were committed
by guns, and took a pro-community concept in gun-control laws,''
said Viramontes, whose group worked closely with city officials in
developing many of the local gun-control ordinances.

``It was a no-brainer -- limiting accessibility to guns was an important
strategy.''

While many California cities have approved some of the toughest
ordinances in the country, more than half of other states are
pre-empted from passing local ordinances stronger than state law,
according to Malte of Handgun Control Inc.

``Certainly there will still be guns in Oakland,'' said Andrew Spafford,
attorney for the Legal Community Against Violence in San Francisco.

``But you have to start taking steps to address these issues and
making it more difficult to obtain these weapons from dealers who
aren't taking the basic safety precautions.''

[tc556guy]

"How many gun stores do we need in this community?" or something similar....
well, as many as the market will bear, I think. This is a democracy and a free market sytem, at least in name. All those gun owners must be going somewhere to make their purchases, which must be good news for dealers in adjacent areas.

[foxfire]

Good news for nearby gun shops...until it's their turn....

------------------
...defend the 2nd.
No fate but what we make...

[This message has been edited by foxfire (edited August 06, 2000).]

[4V50 Gary]

Sniff...My first can of blackpowder was purchased from Siegels. Sniff...

[KAM_Indianapolis]

When will those people be waking up? Once they tax one business that is 'politcally uncorrect' in their view, what's to stop them from putting out whatever other business they dont like.

If ever a community needs to adopt gun-free zone signs... Social extremism at its worst...

Can we put up a wall around them... they should be kept away anything that might harm them.

I would think that anyone in their right mind would be heading to better places.

Peace...
Keith

[fight4yourrights]

$5 sez the Cop Shop won't close.

[Dead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tcsd1236:
"How many gun stores do we need in this community?" or something similar....
well, as many as the market will bear, I think. This is a democracy and a free market sytem, at least in name. All those gun owners must be going somewhere to make their purchases, which must be good news for dealers in adjacent areas.[/quote]


How many McDonalad's (sp?) Do we need in this Country?? I can count ummmm like 25+ that are with-in 10 miles of my house! Those places causes people to have Heart Attacks!!! Lets ban them!


------------------
Dead [Black Ops]

[Monkeyleg]

Something along these lines happened in Milwaukee, although without the laws being passed. There were, 15 years ago, about a dozen gun shops within the city proper. There is now only one, and it's the target of constant newspaper attacks because that's where most of the straw purchases in the city are going down.

Incrementalism in real-time.

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.

[Herodotus]

Monkeyleg:
The very same thing happened in the old City of St. Louis, Mo.
Back in the 60's all the really good sporting goods store, gunsmiths and, in fact all the good hobby and recreational oriented shops were there: aquariums, coins, models, photo shops, etc. etc. You had to go there for all of the most interesting things.
Even then, harassment had already begun, not only on this level, which interested me as a young lad living in the suburbs, but actually, across the board for almost all businesses, large and small. There is a time gap between the initiation of things like this and the ultimate consequences because business people cannot just pack up and leave when something does not go their way.
But the consequences were that one by one, as opportunities arose, these businesses moved out of the old city to the suburbs, usually the farther out the better. Decent people left in droves as well.
Today, the old city of St. Louis is a rotting abomination in the heart of a surrounding prosperous urban area many times its size. It is a place that the good times of the 90's have left behind. We are told over and over again that what it really needs is massive infusions of public monies that it cannot provide ofr itself, but few outside its boundaries are are willing to help. God only knows what will happen to it if tougher times arrive.
The scary thing is that they seem to have learned nothing at all. It as if each new low [Census and FBI Crime Statistic time is dreaded here, for they will surely reveal new embarassments] simply calls for more of the same old disasterous strategy, even tougher this time around.
It is one of those places where people vote with their feet. I don't doubt that Oakland is in the same boat.

[Jeff Thomas]

Well, I have to agree with Ms. Viramontes in this case ... this is certainly a 'no-brainer'.


Oakland is probably the prime example of why states need tight preemption laws. Talk about anti-self defense gun bigotry.


Live and let live. Regards from AZ

[Ottergal]

The irony in all this? These people think that by forcing all the gun shops to close that they are going to "curb the availability of guns"? Like the thousands of guns used to commit crime in Oakland were legally purchased from retail establishments such as Siegle's? Puh-leeeeeze!!!! All this means is that the law abiding citizens of Oakland are going to have to go elsewhere to purchase a gun to protect themselves...maybe that is what they were doing on voting day. Either that or a whole lotta people in the 'hood suddenly decided that it was worthwhile to register to vote to pass this tax...makes their "jobs" that much easier.

[Cliff]

I posted this article because I thought the moose nugget content was especially high - even for the 'densely liberal' Bay Area.

What will they do with the tax monies? Hmmm..

As for the tax, Chang said those who profit from selling guns should
also share part of the costs for treating gunshot victims, which he says
amounts to $30,000 to $35,000 for every such wound treated.

Well now, gosh. The Bay Area certainly has its share of vehicular violence, too - with all of the attendant fatalities and human suffering... not to mention hospital costs.

Let's apply that tax to auto dealerships - on a $20,000 car that would be $480. Of course, that would devour much of their profit margin and many would go out of business.

The money collected from the tax is supposed to go toward youth
non-violence education.

I always thought that kind of education was given at home - by responsible parents. Anybody who has passed through some of the more choice parts of Oakland knows the problems run far deeper than any silly little 'gun tax' can solve.

Cliff

[Gary H]

Sorry folks, but you are not dealing with the great minds of society in Oakland. Many folks know that certain areas are very dangerous and many (drug related) violent crimes take place within the city limits. I don't believe that the average voter in Oakland thinks much beyond the sound bite. I know many of them. Most are liberal and without a sense of history. Many wear their politics like a shirt, with no real substance. Guns bad..big business bad..government good. Sorry folks, but the people have spoken. Met many nice folk from Oakland, but politics, well that is emotional and not something to research and understand. The Bill of Rights..what?

[mrat]

Well since the city of Oakland has closed that evil business violent crime in that city should be drastically reduced. Yeah right.

[KaMaKaZe]

I'd appreciate it if someone could provide a link to the original story.

Thanks!

------------------
God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

[Cliff]

KaMaKaZe - The link is (currently) at: http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium...ocs/guns05.htm

Cliff

[DANIEL_BOOME]

The little band of Bay Area DIY revolutionaries known as the "Symbionese Liberation Army" (the folks who, in 1973 assassinated Oakland's first African American Public School Superintendent and then in early 1974 kidnapped heiress Patricia Hearst (home invasion style) from her Berkley apartment; purchased some of their firearms from Siegle's. In this interview, an employee of Siegle's remembers that the SLA members he had contact with seemed "not militant in any way, had decent personalities- NICE PEOPLE".

Yeah, I was watching this great documentary "Guerilla: The Taking Of Patty Hearst" the other day and BLAM- Siegle's!!!

Check it out

the Siegle's clip comes at 12:46 in ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUvo6c2Aerc

[kilimanjaro]

Anyone catch the numbers cited in the article? Firearms were involved in 69% and 71% of the homicides in Oakland during the years the numbers increased. So the rate of gun use in homicide is exactly the same. 2% change from one year to the next is not a significant number.

Seems to me, the problem isn't the guns, it's the people using them. Guns seized from people who shouldn't have them rose by 75%, maybe effective law enforcement is the answer, eh? Who would have thought taking guns away from criminals would result in less gun crime? What a concept.

The remainder of the article is just proof the antigun crowd is, in a word, delusional. The numbers cited prove them wrong, no doubt about it.

[DANIEL_BOOME]

I saw that. I scanned all the replies. Just so you know, my post wasn't meant in any political way or in a morbid way- purely a point of historical interest, kind of like "story of the gun". I remember some months ago reading stories about Siegle's (San Fran's last gun store) and then last night, I just happened to be watching that documentary and bing, another Siegle's story (from 40 years ago) pops up. Not really a "story" per se- more an historical reference.

[44 AMP]

Daniel,

I understand about historical references, but bringing back a 15 year old thread isn't the best way to go about reminding people.

[DMY]

I was reloading just the other day and pulled out an old box to use for my reloads. Saw the original price tag for my .38s was $9.99 at Siegle's. Also have a similar box from The Trader's and $12.99 boxes for .45s. For those of you who remember The Traders, it was similarly ousted by San Leandro's powers that be. It has re-opened in Castro Valley, but it is nothing like it used to be. Also found a box of old slugs from San Francisco Gun Exchange and my original Python box from Markell's. For those of you in the Bay Area, these references will probably also bring back great and sad memories. I only visited High Bridge once a long time ago, but it was the most recent shop to close in San Francisco. AAAHHH, the good ole' days.

[turkeestalker]

From the original post from the article.....

``But you have to start taking steps to address these issues and
making it more difficult to obtain these weapons from dealers who
aren't taking the basic safety precautions.''

Where was it mentioned that any dealers weren't following the law and taking basic safety precautions?
Guess I should go and read the original article and see if it actually was?

[Old Stony]

Siegels and Traders were some of the big players of yesterday and I sure hate to hear of their problems. As far as I am concerned, Siegels was the only really good business along that street for quite a ways. The city might not to want to address it, but just up the street a ways is one of the true hot spots for prostitution and drug sales. I for one would welcome a legitimate business in that part of town. I remember many times driving through there and seeing all the working girls on the corners.
All around that whole area is governed by local politics, not common sense. John, the former owner of Castro Valley gun shop was trying to open up another shop in San Leandro (Traders territory), and the city fought him tooth and nail and as I understand it, even changed the city rules about proximity to schools to keep him from opening his shop.
I lived about 30 miles north of Oakland for many years and drove through that area frequently as part of my job. The city was always considered the center of crime for the whole area....and apparently they are going to make the situation even worse with their punitive taxes.

[pax]

Closed this antique thread.

pax