Armi Sanpaola 44 New Model Army

[RC20]

While I swore I would never shoot another black powder gun (pistol of some kind back in the 70s) my wife brought to our marriage the gun in the title. The grease part really turned me off. Bought sometime in the earlier 70s. Nic condition with a tad of surface rust.

I have been researching these and shooting of them and the best advice seems to be In Range for loading and getting shaved ring the way they were intended (and also Conical bullets but that is not a have to)

My question is does anyone have knowledge of these specifically, can they take a conical bullet without modifying? Its not a collector but I am not keen to cut on a gun nor want to buy conical and find they do not fit (the loading lever is fully recessed). Also the size to get the shaving.

If I find it fun I would replace the nipples with modern ones. Have to see if I can get caps for it and Number 10 again as I understand it.

Also while I don't see black powder for sale I do see the pellets and what would the load be (I am seeing maybe a 30 gr pellet being a mid load but that is generic info. I am guessing but pellets also seem to mitigate a flash over.

[Oliver Sudden]

.454” ball and no grease will work fine. Or you could put a wad between the powder and ball. Some of the replicas don’t have enough clearance under the lever to load a slug depending on the type. Substitute powder works fine in revolvers. Caps variant fits depending upon brand, I have good luck with Remington #11 although some nipples require a bit of a pinch of the edge of the cap to hold well.

[Hawg]

I would use a .454 ball, a lubed wad and loose powder. If you can find a conical with enough taper or rebate they will probably work but modern bullets don't have a taper or rebate and will be difficult to load and keep straight.

[Aguila Blanca]

Another issue with using projectiles other than round balls is that the opening in front of the cylinder may not be large enough to allow a conical bullet to rotate into place to be seated with the built-in ram.

[Schlitz 45]

Round balls work great so I’ve never messed with trying to load conicals.
Here’s probably more history about the manufacturer than you asked for-
ARMI SAN PAOLO S.r.l.
Previous trademark previously named Armi San Paolo beginning 1971 and originally located in San Paolo, Italy. Armi San Paolo S.r.l. currently located in Concesio, Italy, changed its name to Euroarms Italia S.r.l. in January 2002. Euroarms Italia S.r.l. (formerly Armi San Paolo) also owns Euroarms of America and is currently imported by Cabela´s, located in Sydney, NE, Euroarms of America located in Winchester, VA, Dixie Gun Works, Inc. located in Union City, IN, and Navy Arms Co. located in Union City, NJ. Previously imported by Kendall International located in Paris, KY, and Muzzle Loaders, Inc. located in Burke, VA. Available through dealers and catalog houses. See the Euroarms Italia S.r.l. section for current model pricing.
The origin of Armi San Paolo can be traced back to 1957 when two young Americans asked Luciano Amadi to reproduce the original 1851 Colt Navy revolver. Val Forgett, Sr., a businessman in the firearms field, and William B. Edwards, the technical editor of Guns magazine, were in Europe as part of an American gun tour, and in search of a manufacturer for black powder reproductions and replicas. At that time, Luciano Amadi was employed at Beretta, and assisted a group of Indonesian military officers who resided in Gardone VT, Italy, for three years to follow up a commitment of 55,000 M1 Garands for their government. He was also one of the few people at the plant who could speak English at the time. During dinner with Forgett and Edwards while in Gardone, plans were made to go ahead with the project.
It took Mr. Amadi many months to import an original Colt 1851 Navy, and even more time to find an Italian manufacturer willing to accept this new manufacturing proposal. Vittorio Gregorelli, who owned a parts supply company making components for Beretta firearms in Brescia, was not licensed to manufacture guns at the time, and finally believed in the project when Mr. Amadi presented him with an initial order for 250 Colt 1851 Navy revolvers. A $500 check started the tooling process! During this same time period, Aldo Uberti, also a previous Beretta employee, began manufacturing black powder reproductions in Gardone, next to Brescia. Uberti records indicate that the first Uberti model was returned from the Italian proof house on Oct. 14th, 1959. By 1959, the black powder reproduction and replica industry was already off to a good start in Italy, and Gregorelli was followed by Davide Pedersoli, who started producing muzzle loading replicas in 1960-1961, when Amadi presented him with a Kentucky pistol to replicate.
In the early 1960s Giacomo Grassi, Giuseppe Doninelli, along with a person named Gazzola, were involved in a company manufacturing small caliber semi-auto pistols called Gradoga. In 1971, when Gradoga closed, Giacomo Grassi and Giuseppe Doninelli joined Luciano Amadi (who already had a small gun trading company) to form Armi San Paolo in a small town 25 Km south of Brescia called San Paolo. Armi San Paolo grew to employ approx. 60 people, and Euroarms of America Inc. was formed in Winchester, VA, to distribute all Armi San Paolo products. In 1987, the replica market shrank, and Armi San Paolo started the move from San Paolo, Italy to Concesio, Italy with the move being completed during 1990.

[RC20]

Thank you guys for the response.

We are limited up here and I wound up with Remington 11 caps, powder is 777 FFFG and 25 grains looks to be a good starting load.

I tried one of the caps and fires fine, splayed out, not sure that is normal or part of the deal with #11 caps.

Looked at a number of U Tube, it seems like the gun should latch into the mid cylinder position but hammer does not fit the slot. It does not spin at half cock either.

Am guessing that is the nature of the Italian guns. I don't need the mid position and the cylinder will spin with a partial hammer opening (not with caps or anything in the chamber of course)

I will shoot it one cylinder at a time initially. Have to see what the range protocol is for loading those. Muzzle Rifles are done behind the line and I have not seen anyone shoot a black powder pistol. I know the guys at the range well and will check first, they have enough grief without a oh what is going on now reaction.

[Hawg]

The cap size problem is the number 11 caps won't stay on the nipples under recoil unless you pinch them a little first. The caps splitting apart is normal. Italian guns are bad about the hammer nose not fitting the safety notches. If the cylinder wont spin at half cock something inside is wrong. Take the cylinder out and put it on half cock. The bolt should be all the way down.

[Ricklin]

I enjoy my cap and ball revolvers much more with a 20 dollar loading stand. No not the type that stands the gun up and cradles it, that's silly IMO. A little 20 dollar or so "press" for the cylinder makes life easier. It's also easy to see that you are shaving a ring of lead when you press the ball home.

[RC20]

Hawg:

Thank you as well, it definitely is a bit out of timing for the half cock position. Full cock is spot on. Its smooth as well and I would call it Smith and Wesson type feel (aka my double action revolvers in SA cocking).

I will not dismiss a warning but as long as it indexed correctly for a full cock I think its ok, not what it should be clearly but not a hint of malfunction for full cock.

I am approaching this cautiously, looked at a lot of U Tube by what I think are the better presenters (InRange being one).

I am going to Single Load while I see how the initial load in the gun does. From all the looking the first load looks to be fairly mild.

Looking at the measuring standards has been pretty wild. I always was a scale loader so the volume vs grains and then the substitutes black powder variation, phew. It would be far better to have it listed in true scale grains not a scale and then it seems that the dispensers should be referenced to a given powder.

The Ball I have is not shaving though it is tight, but I am only going to shoot a single chamber at a time for now and can pick up the larger ones if I continue. Keep an eye out for Number 10 caps.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by RC20

Thank you as well, it definitely is a bit out of timing for the half cock position.

What do you regard as being out of time at half-cock?

[RC20]

I may be using wrong terminology but at half cock the Cylinder Stop Bolt has come back up and starts to ride on the cylinder (former mechanic so timing would be a general term to me)

I am used to it on my DA revolvers (mostly S&W) so it did not seem off until I got the response on what half cock should do in the case of a New Model Army, ie its locked up and does not spin though it does spin before that point.

At a guess the Hammer surface was not machined far enough on the curve.

Lots of shooting with the DA type cartridge guns, virtually none with the SA types (I owned one BP pistol back in the 70s and had a Ruger SA but long faded memories)

[Aguila Blanca]

The bolt should not be up at half-cock. At half cock, the cylinder has to be free to turn, for capping the nipples.

[RC20]

As this is new to me, took a bit to figure that out. It does retract initially but comes back up before the half cock.

But my reality is there it is and do I want to try to do something about it or live with it? Downside of course is more drag on the cylinder when advancing it. I am used to some of that on my DA revolvers.

I am not deep into the mechanical of either DA or SA but just looking at it, it seems its the hammer curve and where the notch for the half cock position is.

If true then the only fix would be to add material to the hammer or get a new hammer. Other than the timing its a very smooth functioning mechanism.

For now I will live with it and see how it shoots.

[Hawg]

I wouldn't shoot it with balls that don't shave a ring unless somebody chamfered the chamber mouths. That locking up correctly at full cock but not at half cock isn't right. The bolt shouldn't contact the cylinder until a full bolt width before the notch. It could be a worn hammer cam that's letting the bolt leg slide off too early.

[RC20]

I will single shoot it until I get balls that shave correctly. It is leaving lead marks down the cylinder so its a tight fit that is short of shaving (not that I want to have a chainfire)

The gun is virtually new, it was only shot a few times, its a 76 build and that is when my wife recollects she got it.

I took off the trigger guard and can see the hammer curve area, very new and shiny with sharp notches.

Speculating the hammer may not have had the same build quality as the rest (as it does not sit down in the in between chamber slots).

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by RC20

Speculating the hammer may not have had the same build quality as the rest (as it does not sit down in the in between chamber slots).

That's common.

[RC20]

Ok, here is the shooting report.

And a loading station as was suggested may come into play due to the range rules on wanting the cylinder out of the gun during a cease fire (never saw a BP pistol on the pistol range so its not something they are familiar with, we do see BP rifles on the rifle range) as well as loading on the bench behind the pistol benches (I think its a worse less safe setup but I don't set the rules and those guys have enough problems without me adding to them)

The first shot was 22 grs of 777 and that came out at 900 fps. I figured that was too much. The other dipper was 18 gr measured by weight, those were in the 800 fps max and some as low as 700 (may still be too fast but felt fine). Clearly 777 is more energetic can BP. I would not stuff a chamber full of it. Not sure if its linear or not.

As the balls were all hard to get seated and left lead down the sides of the chamber, I worked up to shooting adjacent cylinders and no issue.

One Nipple plugged up and would not fire, and at the end I had 3 not firing, by then enough stuff in the mechanism it was not turning smoothly and quit at that point.

I could not find a sole nipple wrench in town and did not want to pay the price for the kits - I ordered a wrench and used it yesterday to pull nipples, dump powder out of the cylinders and then drove the balls out with a punch.

All 3 we no longer balls (from the seating) - they actually were quasi elongated and had great seals.

Cleanup was easy for all but the barrel and that was seriously fouled. I have some stuff called Carbon Killer 2000 and it cleaned it out though more and dirtier patches than smokeless powder.

While dealing with the range rules was annoying I have ideas going forwards process wise .
I will take the wrench with me (it has the nipple clean-out rod though I have small drills I could use) and probably some cleaning solution so I can shoot a bit longer.

I am going to keep shooting it, it was interesting for sure and I liked it this time around.

[Hawg]

If it's a steel frame it will handle 35 grains with no problems. Water is the best thing to clean fouling. You can get a spray bottle and spritz some water on the face of the cylinder or you can use Windex without ammonia to keep it turning. What is clogging the nipples?

[RC20]

At 900 fps that got me nervous. I have not seen a lot of solid info on 777 3F, so approaching it cautiously.

As for Nipple clog I am guessing its the caps but it could be fouling from the powder. Not sure how you sort that out though the cylinder chambers were reasonably clean, the fouling was pretty much down the barrel.

When I use this powder up I can switch though I like cleaner over fouling from real BP (or as clean as I can get). I have to look at the options but Cabella had several types and I can get the pellets as well.

[Hawg]

Forget the pellets. When I don't have bp Pyrodex works very well. I don't know what is causing your nipple clogging. I don't have that issue.

[Ricklin]

I prefer an old school small flask with a measuring spout. I'm with Hawg Pyrodex or holy Black. I like the pellets for my 209 ignition rifle. Convenience rules in the field. OP sounds to me like you have balls large for bore size. Can you measure the cylinder bores? A pair of 20 dollar calipers is all you need. I once received a Pietta .44 with 3 different sizes of cylinder bore out of the six. I still have the replacement that was provided, Traditions did make it right, on my nickel for freight. It was not easy to get them to even have a look at it. They relented when I told them what the measurements of the cylinders were. Bad enough only 3 of the 6 would shave a ring of lead from the same box of Speer balls. Loose is especially bad, the balls can come off the powder under recoil.

[RC20]

Hawg: New to me and no need to go to pellets if they are not a good answer. I was interested as I was not sure what I had wound up with powder wise. Learning a lot.

Ricklin: I am not getting shaved lead but the balls are very tight. Bores are .442 to .446.

The balls all are tight, you can feel a bit of difference in seating. I am going by what I felt was a very good video on chain fire by InRange. He went pretty loose to get one (I don't want to get close of course).

I will probably go down this coming week and shoot some more. I can take tools and cleaning solvent (the CK2K) and shoot a bit more.

So far the biggest issue has been the timing for the half cock but can work around that, I have not seen an animated presentation on that. I am gathering that its involved with the bolt and the two arms.

[RC20]

I took the gun apart yesterday looking to see if anything obvious was there for the half cock bolt position.

Unfortunately I have not found an animation and I have not got a mental picture of how that works.

Does anyone have experience with replacement parts for that era and mfg of that gun? It seems rather than guess best would be to get the whole parts kit that should work correctly (if they will fit)

I certainly can do miner filing and that kind of work but just don't have the view of how the bolt part works (general idea but not anywhere near good enough to try to change anything)

My bolt looks to be filed down on the wrong side but the only detail I have gotten was for a Colt.

Added: I did find some good close up pictures of the bolt and the one in the gun is downright ugly filed and seems to be in the wrong places. Its the only part in there like it.

[Hawg]

Did you take the cylinder out and see where the bolt is on half cock?

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by RC20

I may be using wrong terminology but at half cock the Cylinder Stop Bolt has come back up and starts to ride on the cylinder (former mechanic so timing would be a general term to me)

I am used to it on my DA revolvers (mostly S&W) so it did not seem off until I got the response on what half cock should do in the case of a New Model Army, ie its locked up and does not spin though it does spin before that point.

Response from whom? What was the exact question that generated this response?

Originally Posted by RC20

As this is new to me, took a bit to figure that out. It does retract initially but comes back up before the half cock.

If you draw the hammer back to half cock and release it (not pull the trigger -- allow the hammer to settle in place on the half-cock step, thumb OFF the hammer), where is the bolt? Does the cylinder turn?