Very low velocity

[olduser]

I purchased from Choice Ammunition a box of 200g 45 Schofield ammunition.
The velocity as shown on the box is 465 fps. I have never seen any 45 ammunition loaded to this low velocity. It spooks me. I am concerned this could stick a bullet in the barrel. I have checked 3 reloading manuals and no starting load will give this low velocity. The starting loads in the manuals will all give a velocity in the 650 to 750 fps range.
I chronographed 1 round through my Cimmaron replica S&W no 3 American with an 8" barrel and the bullet made it out of the barrel and the velocity was almost exactly as shown on the box.
What powder could you use to produce this low velocity?
You would have to reduce the published starting loads in my manuals by a considerable amount to reduce the velocity to the 450 fps range which by all recommendations is a big no-no.

[44 AMP]

well, if you chronographed a round and it matches the velocity on the box, I guess you can't accuse them of false advertising.

I have no idea why they loaded it so low, and, other than to get the brass, why you would buy anything that lightly loaded, unless of course you had no idea how light it was before purchasing it.

What has me curious, is why you are even thinking of how to replicate it.

Unless the maker tells you what powder they used, there is no way to know. Looking at it won't tell you what it actually is, only what it looks like, and ammo manufacturers are not limited to cannister grade reloading powders.

Since one bullet did exit the barrel, odds are the rest will also but that's not a given at really low velocities.

I would shoot it up, under conditions where its obvious that the bullet hit the target (or something clearly seen, like a sand bank), and then (assuming it is reloadable) reload the brass with standard level loads.

Nor would I buy any of their stuff, again, unless it was the easiest way to get brass. Where was the stuff made?? Is the fired case boxer primed?

[JohnKSa]

The cowboy action folks like really light loads.

[olduser]

I never was planning to replicate the load. I bought the box just to fire some 45 Schofield in my gun. My gun is chambered in 45 Colt or 45 Schofield.
When I purchased the ammunition I was not aware the velocity was going to be so low.
It just surprised me that this stuff could be loaded to such a low velocity.
The cases are boxer primed and the head stamp is " * 45 * Schofield". (* denotes a star).

[mehavey]

2 grains of Red Dot will produce that velocity w/ a soft 200gr H&G-68
But (Boy Howdy)... that ain't much powder

[Ike Clanton]

Sounds like a load they’d use for 1920’s carnival games

[44 AMP]

"Parlor Shooting" was a popular pastime in the later 1800s. It resulted in the development of the .22 rimfire, and metallic cartridges from that.

This light load could have been meant for that kind of use, or in a shooting gallery or something similar. Seems a bit odd to see it as modern ammunition, without some kind of instruction about its intended use.

The headstamp "* cartridge name *" is the format Starline brass uses on the cases they produce. Based on that, I would guess the ammo you have was loaded in Starline brass.

I'd give the ammo maker a call, just to see if they had a specific purpose in mind for that load.

Cowboy action shooting does run light loads, but last time I looked, "light" was in the 600fps range, or so. They might have changed their rules allowing even lighter loads now, I don't know, I don't play their game.

Starline is good brass. As long as you are careful to be certain no bullet gets stuck in the barrel, the ammo you got ought to be ok to shoot. Might even be quite accurate, you'll have to see about that in your gun(s).

Good Luck!

[MarkCO]

Cowboy action shooters load to pretty low velocities, with pretty soft bullets. Their "minimum power factor" is 60. A 200g at 465 is 93, so it is above the power floor.

We had one shoot herself in the foot. She got a bruise, but it did not break through the leather nor did it break any bones.

34. The minimum standard for center-fire ammunition used in all smokeless categories at State, Regional, National, International and World Championship Competitions is not less than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps. The maximum velocity standard for revolvers is 1000 fps.

[Paul B.]

Quite a few years back I was shooting a 1917 S&W .45 ACP running 1.5 gr. of Bullseye and a 185 gr. cast SWC bullet. It was fun to shoot and on day while out desert ratting with my hunting partner and his brother a jack rabbit stopped on the two track we were on maybe 25 feet in front of the truck. My buddies asked me to try it on the bunny and when I shot it flinched. Buddies brother said I missed and I said I didn't I shot again and the rabbit flinched again, then slowly walked away to the left. We got our to see which was it had gone once getting into the sage brush and found it had gone about 25-30 feet or so before expiring. Not a good load for jack rabbits. Late I shot one of hose loads at point blank range into a pine 2x4. The gun was held straight down at a range of about 12 or so inches and even with gravity to help the bullet only penetrated into that
2x4 to half its length. The bullet BTW was only around 5/8" in over all length. Report FWIW, was not much louder that a .22 short.
Paul B.

[mikejonestkd]

" 465 FPS "
I shoot some powder puff loads in revolvers, but have never gone that low.

in 45 colt I use 200 gn mastercast.net bullets and trailboss for 600 FPS out of a 5.5" barrel. that's about as light as I dare go

[olduser]

I have reloaded for 50 years and had not run into a load this light. It just kind of spooked me. Now that you mentioned it the cases probably are special marked Starline.

[tangolima]

I went lower than that. Hot glue bullet with with no powder or tiny bit of trailboss.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Recycled bullet]

I think that if you fire a full cylinder you may possibly jam your gun up because the primers may back out and infringe upon the cylinders rotation, fighting against The Recoil Shield.

At least that's what I found out shooting one grain of Tite group loaded into 38 Special brass with wad cutters, I also had the primers back out really badly when I tried shooting earplugs using only the primer with no gunpowder out of my snub nose, my primers backed out it made it very difficult and irritating to open the cylinder.

[44 AMP]

With regular ammo, the primers always back out, and then the case moves back "reseating" the primers before it seals against the chamber walls.

This doesn't happen unless the pressure is enough, and using a wax bullet, or paper wad its usually not enough. Note that the cases Speer made for shooting their plastic bullets using only the primers had flasholes at least twice the size of the holes in cases meant for regular ammo.

[mulespurs]

In the first edition of the Lyman cast bullet handbook, as I recall there are some loads listed in the 44/45 caliber loads, that are in the 400-500 fps range.

I did load some once and went to shoot a jackrabbit at 25-30 yards.
I think the load may have been listed in 44 spl, but all I had was 44 mag brass.
The bullet hit before the rabbit and hit him on the bounce, then he bounced away.

I'm still laughing and I never stuck a bullet in the barrel either.

All the best,

[Unclenick]

Lots of light loads used to be made for gallery shooting and have simply fallen out of favor. If you look at some of the smaller 19th-century black powder pocket revolvers from across the pond, you find some with proof pressures of under 5,000 psi, so you know they were shooting in the 4,000 psi range fully loaded. The main difference here is the huge empty powder space that those tiny cartridges didn't have. 2 grains of VV N310, 1.8 grains of Clays. Something like that.

The approach I would take to such light loads is to use a very fast powder to be sure the bullet starts out and gets to full peak pressure before it jumps the barrel/cylinder gap and starts bleeding gas off. I also would watch for stuck bullets if you are firing them in a chamber longer than the case was designed for, as the extra jump into the throat offers another opportunity for gas to bleed off. it's better to seat deeply in an overly long piece of brass from that standpoint.

Recycled bullet has a point. With, say, 3000 psi, you will still get about 460 lbs of reseating force backward on the case, which should be adequate, but with gas leak paths uncertain, check to see if the maker of your ammo drilled the flash holes out to 1/8" to avoid the primer problem (the way primer-powered wax bullet loads solve the problem) or if they crimped the primers. I've not played with such light loads myself to know.

Also, this is a good application for swaged bullets that lead your barrel with warmer loads.

[FrankenMauser]

I have loaded down as far as 280 fps (according to my chronograph, at about 10-12 feet).
Later, I bumped that load to about 430 fps, because (commercial cast) bullets were bouncing or ricocheting badly off of steel, rather than expanding or splattering.

450+ fps doesn't worry me, as long as the application is reasonable and the load is consistent. What you don't want is a position-sensitive load.

I have a light swaged bullet .44 load in .44 Mag brass. Runs about 900 fps in my 6.5" and 7.5" revolvers. I was hesitant to do so, but eventually ran it through my Marlin 1894. The bullets exited the barrel with an average of 794 fps. Very fun and pleasant to shoot.
You never know until you try it.

[mehavey]

See https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...89&postcount=1
(But don't leave home without a chronograph )

[Grey_Lion]

I'm surprised no-one has asked - How's the recoil? A light load like that may also be said to be for someone of smaller stature who can't handle a regular .45 round. At extreme short range, holding site picture on that light a load would likely be far easier to maintain.