351 winchester

kodiak · July 31, 2001, 08:29 PM

While viewing different guns in a Cabela's store, I
was visiting with another gun lover who had just purchased
to boxes of 351 winchester ammo. Can anyone shed some light
on the history of this weapon? As he paid a small fortune for
these rounds, my curiousity was aroused. Thanks for any info.

**Mike Irwin** · July 31, 2001, 09:51 PM

The .351 was part of a series of Winchester Self Loading (WSL is a commonly seen acronym) recoil operated rifles in the first decade of the 20th century.

The design was essentially the same; as heavier calibers were added, the gun was just beefed up. The same basic design also saw use in at least one Winchester .22 rifle.

The first in the series was the 1905, chambered in .32 and .35 WSL cartridges.

From all accounts, they were pretty worthless cartridges that never developed a niche, with one interesting exception, which I'll note later. Both were under powered, and never caught on. They were both made obsolete with World War I.

In 1907 Winchester beefed up the gun and the cartridge and offered the .351 WSL. This gun caught on. It was just powerful enough for deer-sized game (although there were a lot better choices).

Where the 1907 really caught on, though, was with law enforcement. I think something like 80% of all of the 1907s went to law enforcement, both public and private, prison guards, etc.

Some of these guns, believe it or not, are still in inventory with some small police forces.

Some 1907s even saw combat with French forces in World War I, and a very interesting hybrid, the 8mm Ribeyrolle, an 8mm Balle D bullet from the French Lebel rifle and the .351 WSL case, was developed for an experimental semi-auto rifle project that didn't go anywhere.

In 1910 Winchester brought out the last in the series, the .401 WSL. It was a lot more powerful than the other rifles in the series, and was a decent short-range deer, bear, and even jaguar rifle. It was, in some ways, the early ancestor to Ruger's .44 Mag. semi-auto carbine.

Ammo production for the .351 and the .401 survived WW I, but when the ammo companies realigned for WW II, the .401 was dropped and never brought back.

The .351 survived as a production item until sometime in the late 1970s early 1980s.

Ok, I mentioned that the .32 WSL had a very interesting side note associated with it.

In 1940, while Winchester was pitching its version of a military carbine to replace the 1911A1 pistol in many applications, Winchester dusted off the .32 WSL casing, did some modifications, and developed what would become the .30 M1 Carbine round.

A redesigned .351 would have, in my opinion, been a MUCH better choice all around, but the military wanted a .30-cal. weapon.

Steven Mace · July 31, 2001, 10:17 PM

Kodiak, the .351 Winchester Self-Loading (a.k.a. 351 WSL) cartridge was released in 1907 and used in the Model 1907 Winchester semiautomatic rifle. The Model 1907 was made from 1907-1957 with about 58,490 being manufactured.

The 351 WSL replaced the original self-loading cartridge from Winchester, the 35 WSL. The 351 WSL has a case length of 1.38" and an overall cartridge length of 1.91". The factory load used a 180gr. bullet that had a muzzle velocity of 1850ft/sec and energy at the muzzle of 1370ft/lbs.

Hope this helps!

Steve Mace

James K · July 31, 2001, 10:22 PM

The .351 was a pretty popular rifle with law enforcement in the 20's and 30's. I even saw some issued to GSA guards in Washington as recently as the 1972 rioting.

I was terrified, not of the rioters, but of those poorly trained "security guards" being given rifles; they were dangerous enough with their .38 revolvers.

Jim

kodiak · August 1, 2001, 06:21 AM

Thanks to everyone for their input. It never ceases to amaze me
that there are so many calibers and so much history involving guns.

Johnny Guest · August 1, 2001, 03:37 PM

Mike Irwin wrote:

Quote:

It was just powerful enough for deer-sized game (although there were a lot better choices).

Agreed, in general, with a 180 gr. bullet at about 1850 fps. But look at how many people claim that a .357 mag revolver, with a 158 at about 1450, or a 180 at about 1300, is a suitable deer rig!

And, let's don't even discuss the .30 US Carbine with a 110 at about 1950 fps.

As to the law enforcement use of the .351, two footnotes:

1. My sheriff's office still has one '07 .351 in inventory, just for exhibition. It is in a case with a couple of 94 Winchesters, and the now-current issue .223 Mini-14.

2. Austin, Texas, mid-60s. A former Marine named Charles Whitman twisted off and took a bunch of gear to the top of the University of Texas Tower and started shooting folks. (Moderator Art Eatman can give us the real date--he was one of the moving targets, I believe.)

Anyhow, the Austin PD was at a distinct disadvantage, using the old .351s, trying to suppress Whitman's fire. They were VERY grateful for the Hill Country hunters who brought forth their deer rifles and rendered active assistance, until the police sorted things out. The armed citizen made a significant contribution that day, for certain!

Best,
Johnny

Shazbat · August 5, 2001, 06:29 PM

It was marked 'Reising .351' on the barrel, and '.351' on the bolt and the cartridges were headstamped with .351 SLR, so I presume it was the .351 Winchester cartridge. The rifle had what appeared to be about a 7-10 round magazine and a redfield peep sight on the rear of the receiver. The magazine and magazine well had two dimples on each side, and the mag release was different than in the pic above as was the stock forend. The charging handle was accessed through the bottom of the forend.

I did not notice any other markings on this rifle, and was wondering if anyone knew anything about it? Thanks!

**Mike Irwin** · August 6, 2001, 12:10 AM

Shazbat,

Now this is interesting!

Eugene Reising was a designer who worked in the pre and post WW II era.

He designed a submachine gun that was used by the Marines in the early years of the Pacific War, but it wasn't thought of too highly becuase it was rather quirky.

I believe that Reising also tried his hand at pistols, but your report is the FIRST I've ever heard of Reising making a rifle chambered in .351 WSL!

Shazbat · August 6, 2001, 08:32 AM

Thanks Mike, I am now _dying_ to learn anything at all about this piece, now that I've searched several places and seem to be unable to find a single mention of it!

I was reading very briefly about the Reising's you mentioned last night, and the pictures of the Model 50, 55, and 60 look similar to what I saw. The magazine and mag release look very closely alike and the mag well is in the same spot. The barrel on the .351 was longer of course and had a much larger ramped front sight.

I have only seen side profile photos of the Reising 50, but if anyone has links to more detailed shots I would love to see them, thanks!

July 31, 2001, 08:29 PM	#1
kodiak Member Join Date: July 21, 2001 Location: dry south west Posts: 27	351 winchester While viewing different guns in a Cabela's store, I was visiting with another gun lover who had just purchased to boxes of 351 winchester ammo. Can anyone shed some light on the history of this weapon? As he paid a small fortune for these rounds, my curiousity was aroused. Thanks for any info.

July 31, 2001, 09:51 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	The .351 was part of a series of Winchester Self Loading (WSL is a commonly seen acronym) recoil operated rifles in the first decade of the 20th century. The design was essentially the same; as heavier calibers were added, the gun was just beefed up. The same basic design also saw use in at least one Winchester .22 rifle. The first in the series was the 1905, chambered in .32 and .35 WSL cartridges. From all accounts, they were pretty worthless cartridges that never developed a niche, with one interesting exception, which I'll note later. Both were under powered, and never caught on. They were both made obsolete with World War I. In 1907 Winchester beefed up the gun and the cartridge and offered the .351 WSL. This gun caught on. It was just powerful enough for deer-sized game (although there were a lot better choices). Where the 1907 really caught on, though, was with law enforcement. I think something like 80% of all of the 1907s went to law enforcement, both public and private, prison guards, etc. Some of these guns, believe it or not, are still in inventory with some small police forces. Some 1907s even saw combat with French forces in World War I, and a very interesting hybrid, the 8mm Ribeyrolle, an 8mm Balle D bullet from the French Lebel rifle and the .351 WSL case, was developed for an experimental semi-auto rifle project that didn't go anywhere. In 1910 Winchester brought out the last in the series, the .401 WSL. It was a lot more powerful than the other rifles in the series, and was a decent short-range deer, bear, and even jaguar rifle. It was, in some ways, the early ancestor to Ruger's .44 Mag. semi-auto carbine. Ammo production for the .351 and the .401 survived WW I, but when the ammo companies realigned for WW II, the .401 was dropped and never brought back. The .351 survived as a production item until sometime in the late 1970s early 1980s. Ok, I mentioned that the .32 WSL had a very interesting side note associated with it. In 1940, while Winchester was pitching its version of a military carbine to replace the 1911A1 pistol in many applications, Winchester dusted off the .32 WSL casing, did some modifications, and developed what would become the .30 M1 Carbine round. A redesigned .351 would have, in my opinion, been a MUCH better choice all around, but the military wanted a .30-cal. weapon. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 31, 2001, 10:17 PM	#3
Steven Mace Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 1999 Location: Clifton, Colorado USA Posts: 724	Kodiak, the .351 Winchester Self-Loading (a.k.a. 351 WSL) cartridge was released in 1907 and used in the Model 1907 Winchester semiautomatic rifle. The Model 1907 was made from 1907-1957 with about 58,490 being manufactured. The 351 WSL replaced the original self-loading cartridge from Winchester, the 35 WSL. The 351 WSL has a case length of 1.38" and an overall cartridge length of 1.91". The factory load used a 180gr. bullet that had a muzzle velocity of 1850ft/sec and energy at the muzzle of 1370ft/lbs. Hope this helps! Steve Mace __________________ After today, its all historical

August 1, 2001, 06:21 AM	#5
kodiak Member Join Date: July 21, 2001 Location: dry south west Posts: 27	351 winchester Thanks to everyone for their input. It never ceases to amaze me that there are so many calibers and so much history involving guns.

August 5, 2001, 06:29 PM	#7
Shazbat Member Join Date: August 28, 2000 Posts: 46	Saw a .351 rifle today It was marked 'Reising .351' on the barrel, and '.351' on the bolt and the cartridges were headstamped with .351 SLR, so I presume it was the .351 Winchester cartridge. The rifle had what appeared to be about a 7-10 round magazine and a redfield peep sight on the rear of the receiver. The magazine and magazine well had two dimples on each side, and the mag release was different than in the pic above as was the stock forend. The charging handle was accessed through the bottom of the forend. I did not notice any other markings on this rifle, and was wondering if anyone knew anything about it? Thanks!

July 31, 2001, 10:22 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The .351 was a pretty popular rifle with law enforcement in the 20's and 30's. I even saw some issued to GSA guards in Washington as recently as the 1972 rioting. I was terrified, not of the rioters, but of those poorly trained "security guards" being given rifles; they were dangerous enough with their .38 revolvers. Jim

August 6, 2001, 12:10 AM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Shazbat, Now this is interesting! Eugene Reising was a designer who worked in the pre and post WW II era. He designed a submachine gun that was used by the Marines in the early years of the Pacific War, but it wasn't thought of too highly becuase it was rather quirky. I believe that Reising also tried his hand at pistols, but your report is the FIRST I've ever heard of Reising making a rifle chambered in .351 WSL! __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 6, 2001, 08:32 AM	#9
Shazbat Member Join Date: August 28, 2000 Posts: 46	Thanks Mike, I am now _dying_ to learn anything at all about this piece, now that I've searched several places and seem to be unable to find a single mention of it! I was reading very briefly about the Reising's you mentioned last night, and the pictures of the Model 50, 55, and 60 look similar to what I saw. The magazine and mag release look very closely alike and the mag well is in the same spot. The barrel on the .351 was longer of course and had a much larger ramped front sight. I have only seen side profile photos of the Reising 50, but if anyone has links to more detailed shots I would love to see them, thanks!