Is there a place for a .50 ACP?

Hand_Rifle_Guy · December 11, 2001, 07:19 AM

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I want a .50 cal. round that throws 300-ish grn. bullets at 700-900 fps.. Bigger is better, right? On the face of it, I would think it would run through a 1911 without to much modification, particularly in the context of widebody frames. I think the recoil would be no problem as well, and with a properly set-up hollowpoint, stopping power oughta be AWESOME. I can't remember the Fuller index formula to check it. Not to knock the .50 AE, but it's like the .44 mag, way too much for a defense round. Way to big (long) too. Maybe the case could be the basis of this new round, or do we need a whole new case that's thinner for neccessary powder capacity? what about a cut-down WSM/U-mag case? I read recently about another .50, .50 P-something, just a few months back. I think it was at the SHOT show, had a gun to go with it, a 1911-ish sorta deal. Can't remember the exact specs, but I do remeber it was too hot, 1250+ fps I think. So...
1. Opinions on the viability of this concept, and
2. Does anyone remember that other .50, or am I getting senile in my old age? (Well, not that old, jus' turned 34 in Oct.)

I'd appreciate any and all thoughts on this from you opinionated .45 fans, as well as anyone else with an interesting idea.

Hopping from foot to foot in anticipation...

Double Naught Spy · December 11, 2001, 08:33 AM

Why not a .60 and 350ish grains?

The concept is nice, but with the concept of bigger, the commercial market declines. Just about anyone can shoot a .22 rifle or maybe a Kel-Tec P-32. The market is open for anyone of age, who has hands and fingers. This maybe burly football players to little old ladies. The guns have some purposes for which they are best suited, but at worst, they can be shot by about anyone.

Of course there is a .50 auto and Desert Eagle sells it, but I don't know the grain size. The guns are huge, heavy, don't conceal very good for most peple (but it can be done, no doubt). The are loud, very loud.

What happens is that as caliber increases, there are associated changes with the gun, the bullets, and the environment around the gun when fired. My guess is that most old ladies won't be able to hold the gun out to shoot it, won't handle the recoil, and won't like the loudness or concussion wave. There goes part of the market. All of the smaller, more frail people are out as well, male and female alike. They aren't cheap to buy or shoot. There goes another part. They don't conceal well so there goes more potential customers. There isn't much selection so you buy what is there or nothing, and there goes more potential buyers.

I had to laugh, some famous retired football player from the Cowboys with 3 Superbowl rings was arrested in PA, his home state. Aside from the drugs, this 300 man had a little .22 pistol and now has weapons charges. At 300 lbs and having that much money in an economic base to buy whatever he wants and he is carrying a tiny .22!

Let me know if Kel-Tec makes a .50 in a P-50 version like the P-32 and has comparable recoil while still sending the bullet down range at appropriate speed to be effective, THEN you will have a very commercially viable gun.

Dave R · December 11, 2001, 10:01 AM

I don't see it as a huge step up from the .45. In other words, it should be a shootable cartridge.

You should be able to find a gunsmith who will cooperate with you on developing this. I think the barrel would be the hard part.

And which brass could you cut down to make pistol brass for it? What's the width of 8mm mauser at the base?

Go for it, you may be like Weatherby, or Peter Pi.

revolvergeek · December 11, 2001, 11:35 AM

I don't know that any huge gains in stopping power would really result, but it sure sounds cool! I have long joked that if they ever get around to banning hollow points that i will get Hamilton Bowen to make me a .50 Special Redhawk. I forget the exact ballistics on this round, but I seem to remember it shooting a 300 grn at around 750fps.

I am not sure that this would fit on a 1911a1 platform. I would worry about having enough room in the slide to have a decent barrel thickness. Might work better on a little fatter gun, like a Glock 21 or a USP?

**Mike Irwin** · December 11, 2001, 11:40 AM

Sure would send bowling pins to hell and back.

Brian Williams · December 11, 2001, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Why not a .60 and 350ish grains?

Some Gun control act limits handgun calibers to .50 or less.

RWK · December 11, 2001, 12:15 PM

As a private project, it's fine.

However, if I put on my MBA "marketing hat":
> What commercially viable product are you bringing to the marketplace that likely has adequate demand to amortize all the nonrecurring and unit production costs, overhead and profit at any reasonable price?
> Further, is this a solution or enhancement to what most handgunners will perceive as a non-problem?

blades67 · December 11, 2001, 12:45 PM

There's always one guy putting lead in your pockets while you're filling the hot air balloon.

Andrewh · December 11, 2001, 10:21 PM

It might be a non-problem as it were, but people will buy it. In car lingo, there is no substitue for cubic inches other than more cubic inches.
People buy the 50 ae. People buy 50 bmg. If you can make a 50acp, people will buy it just to have the biggest gun on the block.
What would be cool is to actually have an affordable 50. I say this because the desert eagle is around 1000 bucks. The 50 bmg rifles are even more, even for the single shot ones.
So putting it on a 1911 frame so it might be affordable would be cool.

Zorro · December 12, 2001, 02:08 AM

Well if you can only have 10 rounds make them BIG ones!

I thought of the same thing but mine is .50 Cal 250 Grains at about 900 FPS.

T.Stahl · December 12, 2001, 03:57 AM

Zorro, with such a large bullet and such a low velocity, from where exactly do you want to draw the energy to deform the hollow point?

Double Naught Spy · December 12, 2001, 12:33 PM

Oh, no doubt there will need to be a new type magic bullet to go with the new type magic gun of mammoth size.

As far as putting it on a 1911 frame, probably not a good idea unless you get some better building materials. Some 1911 frames already crack under the stress of recoil with .45 acp. Why would you think they would survive well under a bigger caliber? I doubt there will be a .50 ACP lightweight in aluminum offered at all.

Alaska Roy · December 12, 2001, 07:55 PM

Funny you should ask, I lined up a barrel maker today (finally!) that'll some up for me.
The platform is a Glock G-21 since the double stack mags are wide enough for my wildcat, the cartridge is a shortened .50ae to .45acp length so we can use existing brass and dies (slightly altered for seating and crimping) for testing.
I've named the cartridge in honor of Col. Jeff Cooper!
I'll post more when the barrels are here!

Alaska Roy · December 12, 2001, 08:07 PM

Funny you should ask, I lined up a barrel maker today (finally!) that'll some up for me.
The platform is a Glock G-21 since the double stack mags are wide enough for my wildcat, the cartridge is a shortened .50ae to .45acp length so we can use existing brass and dies (slightly altered for seating and crimping) for testing.
I've named the cartridge in honor of Col. Jeff Cooper!
I'll post more when the barrels are here!

Hand_Rifle_Guy · December 12, 2001, 08:39 PM

It doesn't HAVE to run through a 1911, it just seemed like a good starting point. 1911's have been chambered in all kinds of things.

Alaska Roy, you have hit the nail on the head. I can't wait to see how it goes. Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks that if we have an upper limit, we should at least push it.

Deaf Smith · December 12, 2001, 09:57 PM

You can do an experiment. Get a .50 AE case, cut it to .45 ACP length, put a .50 AE bullet back on top (but no primer or powder) and a old GI magazine. Reform the lips and see if the .50s will go down the mag. If so, right there it might work. Otherwise, you will need a bit thicker magazine and have to widen the magazine well to get it to work.

Then, see if BAR-STO will make a barrel to your demensions and RCBS make some dies.

Just open the breach face to take the .50 case head, and I think it might work.

Deaf

Alaska Roy · December 12, 2001, 11:19 PM

Sorry Deaf, I measured the 1911 mag (.545-.550) and the LAR .50ae magazine is .615 and they're thin mags.
The Para Ord may be an option later down the road but it's gonna get pricey enough on the G-20 platform.
The cold hard reality is that the polymer Glock soaks up the felt recoil better than the all metal 1911 and the wider slide seems more readily adaptable to the .50J.C. The extactor may be a problem also, I promise to do some more measuring, could be one of those new sprung extractorsmay work or failing that use a pivot pin style extractor?

December 11, 2001, 07:19 AM	#1
Hand_Rifle_Guy Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Palo Alto, People's Republic of Kaliforny Posts: 724	Is there a place for a .50 ACP? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I want a .50 cal. round that throws 300-ish grn. bullets at 700-900 fps.. Bigger is better, right? On the face of it, I would think it would run through a 1911 without to much modification, particularly in the context of widebody frames. I think the recoil would be no problem as well, and with a properly set-up hollowpoint, stopping power oughta be AWESOME. I can't remember the Fuller index formula to check it. Not to knock the .50 AE, but it's like the .44 mag, way too much for a defense round. Way to big (long) too. Maybe the case could be the basis of this new round, or do we need a whole new case that's thinner for neccessary powder capacity? what about a cut-down WSM/U-mag case? I read recently about another .50, .50 P-something, just a few months back. I think it was at the SHOT show, had a gun to go with it, a 1911-ish sorta deal. Can't remember the exact specs, but I do remeber it was too hot, 1250+ fps I think. So... 1. Opinions on the viability of this concept, and 2. Does anyone remember that other .50, or am I getting senile in my old age? (Well, not that old, jus' turned 34 in Oct.) I'd appreciate any and all thoughts on this from you opinionated .45 fans, as well as anyone else with an interesting idea. Hopping from foot to foot in anticipation... __________________ I find the world disappointing at best. I'm reminded of that every time the phone rings. "The telephone is an infernal device whereby any damnfool with a nickel can ruin your whole day."---Mark Twain H_R_G

December 11, 2001, 08:33 AM	#2
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Why not a .60 and 350ish grains? The concept is nice, but with the concept of bigger, the commercial market declines. Just about anyone can shoot a .22 rifle or maybe a Kel-Tec P-32. The market is open for anyone of age, who has hands and fingers. This maybe burly football players to little old ladies. The guns have some purposes for which they are best suited, but at worst, they can be shot by about anyone. Of course there is a .50 auto and Desert Eagle sells it, but I don't know the grain size. The guns are huge, heavy, don't conceal very good for most peple (but it can be done, no doubt). The are loud, very loud. What happens is that as caliber increases, there are associated changes with the gun, the bullets, and the environment around the gun when fired. My guess is that most old ladies won't be able to hold the gun out to shoot it, won't handle the recoil, and won't like the loudness or concussion wave. There goes part of the market. All of the smaller, more frail people are out as well, male and female alike. They aren't cheap to buy or shoot. There goes another part. They don't conceal well so there goes more potential customers. There isn't much selection so you buy what is there or nothing, and there goes more potential buyers. I had to laugh, some famous retired football player from the Cowboys with 3 Superbowl rings was arrested in PA, his home state. Aside from the drugs, this 300 man had a little .22 pistol and now has weapons charges. At 300 lbs and having that much money in an economic base to buy whatever he wants and he is carrying a tiny .22! Let me know if Kel-Tec makes a .50 in a P-50 version like the P-32 and has comparable recoil while still sending the bullet down range at appropriate speed to be effective, THEN you will have a very commercially viable gun. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

December 11, 2001, 10:01 AM	#3
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	I don't see it as a huge step up from the .45. In other words, it should be a shootable cartridge. You should be able to find a gunsmith who will cooperate with you on developing this. I think the barrel would be the hard part. And which brass could you cut down to make pistol brass for it? What's the width of 8mm mauser at the base? Go for it, you may be like Weatherby, or Peter Pi. __________________ I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).

December 11, 2001, 11:40 AM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Sure would send bowling pins to hell and back. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 11, 2001, 12:15 PM	#7
RWK Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 1999 Location: Occupied Virginia Posts: 2,777	Hand_Rifle_Guy . . . As a private project, it's fine. However, if I put on my MBA "marketing hat": > What commercially viable product are you bringing to the marketplace that likely has adequate demand to amortize all the nonrecurring and unit production costs, overhead and profit at any reasonable price? > Further, is this a solution or enhancement to what most handgunners will perceive as a non-problem? __________________ __________________ Μολών λαβέ!

December 11, 2001, 11:35 AM	#4
revolvergeek Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2001 Posts: 289	I don't know that any huge gains in stopping power would really result, but it sure sounds cool! I have long joked that if they ever get around to banning hollow points that i will get Hamilton Bowen to make me a .50 Special Redhawk. I forget the exact ballistics on this round, but I seem to remember it shooting a 300 grn at around 750fps. I am not sure that this would fit on a 1911a1 platform. I would worry about having enough room in the slide to have a decent barrel thickness. Might work better on a little fatter gun, like a Glock 21 or a USP?

December 11, 2001, 12:45 PM	#8
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	There's always one guy putting lead in your pockets while you're filling the hot air balloon. __________________ Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat! I hunt, therefore I am.

December 11, 2001, 10:21 PM	#9
Andrewh Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 1999 Posts: 966	It might be a non-problem as it were, but people will buy it. In car lingo, there is no substitue for cubic inches other than more cubic inches. People buy the 50 ae. People buy 50 bmg. If you can make a 50acp, people will buy it just to have the biggest gun on the block. What would be cool is to actually have an affordable 50. I say this because the desert eagle is around 1000 bucks. The 50 bmg rifles are even more, even for the single shot ones. So putting it on a 1911 frame so it might be affordable would be cool.

December 12, 2001, 02:08 AM	#10
Zorro Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2000 Posts: 1,072	Well if you can only have 10 rounds make them BIG ones! I thought of the same thing but mine is .50 Cal 250 Grains at about 900 FPS.

December 12, 2001, 03:57 AM	#11
T.Stahl Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2001 Location: near Stuttgart/Germany Posts: 376	Zorro, with such a large bullet and such a low velocity, from where exactly do you want to draw the energy to deform the hollow point? __________________ "Captain, they're really shooting at us. Why?" "Easy boy. If they were really shooting at us, we'd be dead by now."

December 12, 2001, 12:33 PM	#12
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Oh, no doubt there will need to be a new type magic bullet to go with the new type magic gun of mammoth size. As far as putting it on a 1911 frame, probably not a good idea unless you get some better building materials. Some 1911 frames already crack under the stress of recoil with .45 acp. Why would you think they would survive well under a bigger caliber? I doubt there will be a .50 ACP lightweight in aluminum offered at all. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

December 12, 2001, 07:55 PM	#13
Alaska Roy Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 281	The .50 J.C.- Funny you should ask, I lined up a barrel maker today (finally!) that'll some up for me. The platform is a Glock G-21 since the double stack mags are wide enough for my wildcat, the cartridge is a shortened .50ae to .45acp length so we can use existing brass and dies (slightly altered for seating and crimping) for testing. I've named the cartridge in honor of Col. Jeff Cooper! I'll post more when the barrels are here!

December 12, 2001, 08:07 PM	#14
Alaska Roy Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 281	The .50 J.C.- Funny you should ask, I lined up a barrel maker today (finally!) that'll some up for me. The platform is a Glock G-21 since the double stack mags are wide enough for my wildcat, the cartridge is a shortened .50ae to .45acp length so we can use existing brass and dies (slightly altered for seating and crimping) for testing. I've named the cartridge in honor of Col. Jeff Cooper! I'll post more when the barrels are here!

December 12, 2001, 08:39 PM	#15
Hand_Rifle_Guy Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Palo Alto, People's Republic of Kaliforny Posts: 724	It doesn't HAVE to run through a 1911, it just seemed like a good starting point. 1911's have been chambered in all kinds of things. Alaska Roy, you have hit the nail on the head. I can't wait to see how it goes. Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks that if we have an upper limit, we should at least push it. __________________ I find the world disappointing at best. I'm reminded of that every time the phone rings. "The telephone is an infernal device whereby any damnfool with a nickel can ruin your whole day."---Mark Twain H_R_G

December 12, 2001, 09:57 PM	#16
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	You can do an experiment. Get a .50 AE case, cut it to .45 ACP length, put a .50 AE bullet back on top (but no primer or powder) and a old GI magazine. Reform the lips and see if the .50s will go down the mag. If so, right there it might work. Otherwise, you will need a bit thicker magazine and have to widen the magazine well to get it to work. Then, see if BAR-STO will make a barrel to your demensions and RCBS make some dies. Just open the breach face to take the .50 case head, and I think it might work. Deaf

December 12, 2001, 11:19 PM	#17
Alaska Roy Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 281	Deaf Smith Re-1911 Platform Sorry Deaf, I measured the 1911 mag (.545-.550) and the LAR .50ae magazine is .615 and they're thin mags. The Para Ord may be an option later down the road but it's gonna get pricey enough on the G-20 platform. The cold hard reality is that the polymer Glock soaks up the felt recoil better than the all metal 1911 and the wider slide seems more readily adaptable to the .50J.C. The extactor may be a problem also, I promise to do some more measuring, could be one of those new sprung extractorsmay work or failing that use a pivot pin style extractor?