In Praise of the 7.62

[Meanoldfart]

If this article has been posted, I could not find it in search.
It is interesting because it has first hand reports from the battle field.
I have seen all the Fackler drawings and a lot of theory,and that means nothing if the enemy keeps on coming after he is hit .
I think everyone knows that the 7.62x51 is a one shot stopper.
I would like to hear from some vets with first hand experience about the effectiveness of the 7.62x39 round in the SKS or the AK47. First hand only and not theory b.s. I have read stories of troops in Nam that "lost" thier M16 and started using the SKS because of reliability and effectiveness, anyone with first hand knowledge about this?
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From Ocnus.net

Defence & Arms
In Praise Of The 7.62
By Maj. Anthony F. Milavic USMC (Ret.), Defese Watch 26/6/02
Jun 27, 2002, 8:54am

In the name of transformation for the 21st century, the Department of Defense (DoD) is all ears for programs such as the Crusader howitzer, MV-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft and Joint Strike Fighter, while it continues to lend a deaf ear to its warriors on the most fundamental issue in need of change - the 5.56-mm. rifle bullet used by its infantrymen.

For over 36 years, Americans on the field of battle have reported hitting enemy soldiers with multiple rounds of 5.56-mm. ammunition and watching them continue to advance while firing their weapons. In spite of these field observations, the DoD is developing its future infantry weapon - the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW) - to fire this same impotent cartridge.

This deficiency was reported as early as Dec. 9, 1965, in the official after-action report of the Ia Drang Valley battle popularized by the movie and book, We Were Soldiers Once … and Young, by Joseph L. Galloway and Lt. Gen. Hal Moore USA (Ret.).

Moore, the commanding officer of the battalion engaged there, writes of assaulting enemy soldiers being hit by 5.56-mm. rounds: "Even after being hit several times in the chest, many continued firing and moving for several more steps before dropping dead." Later in that war, a similar experience is voiced by Col. John Hayworth, USA (Ret.): "In one fire-fight, I saw my RTO place three rounds [of 5.56-mm.] in the chest of a charging NVA regular at 50 yards. He kept firing his AK and never slowed down. At 30 yards, I hit him with a blast of double-ought buck. It picked him up off his feet and he didn't get up again."

In the aftermath of the Vietnam War, the DoD increased the weight of the 55-grain bullet (M193) to 62 grains and increased its length to accommodate a steel "penetrator." These changes resulted in a new 5.56-mm. bullet with the designation M855.

The Pentagon then sent its warriors to the Gulf War in 1991. Maj. Howard Feldmeier, USMC (Ret.) was there: " … several Marines commented that they had to shoot Iraqi soldiers 2-3 or more times with the 62-grain 5.56-mm. green tip ammo before they stopped firing back at them …. "

That report is exemplified by one of an Iraqi officer who was thrown from his vehicle and set afire by an explosion: "Somehow he managed to hold on to his AK-47. He also got up, still on fire, faced the firing line of Marines and charged forward, firing his weapon from the hip. He didn't hit anyone but two Marines each nailed him with a three-round burst from their M-16A2s. One burst hit him immediately above his heart, the other in his belly button. [He] … kept right on charging and firing until his magazine was empty."

"When he got up to the Marines, two of them tackled him and rolled him in the sand to put out the fire …. He was quickly carried back to the battalion aid station …. The surgeons told me he certainly died of burns, but not necessarily from the six 5.56-mm. wounds …. "

In spite of the above "lesson learned," the DoD dispatched its warriors to combat in Somalia in 1993 with the same flawed 5.56-mm. "green tip" cartridge. As testified in Mark Bowden's book, Black Hawk Down: "His weapon was the most sophisticated infantry rifle in the world, a customized CAR-15, and he was shooting the Army's new 5.56-mm. green tip round. The green tip had a tungsten carbide penetrator at the tip, and would punch holes in metal, but that very penetrating power meant that his rounds were passing right through his targets …. The bullet made a small, clean hole, and unless it happened to hit the heart or spine, it wasn't enough to stop a man in his tracks. Howe felt he had to hit a guy five or six times just to get his attention."

The Pentagon remained unmoved by that experience of its warriors and continues to send them to war under-powered. On Apr. 4, 2002, I received an e-mail from a trooper in Afghanistan who appeals, in part: "The current-issue 62-gr 5.56-mm. (.223) round, especially when fired from the short-barreled M-4 carbine, is proving itself (once again) to be woefully inadequate as [a] man-stopper. Engagements at all ranges are requiring multiple, solid hits to permanently bring down enemy soldiers. Penetration is also sadly deficient. Even light barriers are not perforated by this rifle/cartridge combination."

These reports are consistent with my own experience during three tours of duty in Vietnam from 1964 to 1969; experience that repeatedly reminded me that this 5.56-mm. cartridge was nothing more than the full metal jacket military version of the commercial .223 Remington cartridge. The .223 Remington was and is today commercially advertised and sold as a "varmint" cartridge for hunting groundhogs, prairie dogs and woodchucks. The cartridge is offered with soft point, hollow point, fragmentation, or projectiles incorporating two or more of these attributes to enhance its lethality and assure a "clean kill" on varmints: one-round knockdown power.

States such as the Commonwealth of Virginia do not permit it to be used for hunting deer because its lethality - with or without those enhancements - does not assure a "clean kill" on deer. Yet, its full metal jacket military counterpart continues to be issued to American warriors for the purpose of knocking down an enemy soldier and causing him to stop shooting. As heard from the above testimony, this varmint cartridge fails to do that even with multiple hits.

In desperation, some troopers in Afghanistan are using the commercial .223 Remington 77-grain Sierra MatchKing hollow point bullet loaded by Black Hills Ammunition. Ironically, even this extreme effort has not fixed the problem: "Its performance on enemy soldiers is not much better, but it does penetrate barriers. We're fighting fanatics here, and they don't find wimpy ammunition particularly impressive!" cries a voice from Afghanistan.

From 55-grain (M193) to 62-grain (M855) to 77-grain (Sierra MatchKing), these changes in the weight and composition of the 5.56-mm./.223 Remington bullet have failed to increase lethality to that needed in combat: one-round knockdown power on an enemy soldier. Curiously, the DoD has ignored just such a cartridge for over 36 years; listen again to its lethality as recounted by the American warriors in Black Hawk Down:

"They used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle and ammunition and carried a Vietnam era M-14, which shot a 7.62-mm. round without the penetrating qualities of the new green tip. It occurred to Howe as he saw those Sammies keep on running that Randy was the smartest soldier in the unit. His rifle may have been heavier and comparatively awkward and delivered a mean recoil, but it damn sure knocked a man down with one bullet, and in combat, one shot was all you got. You shoot a guy, you want to see him go down; you don't want to be guessing for the next five hours whether you hit him, or whether he's still waiting for you in the weeds."
© Source: 2002 by Ocnus.net


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[BigG]

This is the age old battle between the 7.62mm and the 5.56mm.

The M16 was developed to be a light weapon capable of controllable full auto fire. The Army did not like the M16 partially because it wasn't developed here (Springfield Armory). There will always be guys who want the whole enchilada (they think) which is the M14 most of which are fixed to semi auto anyway. The M16 is still better overall in its 20" iteration.

We could have every squad outfitted with semi auto M14s except for a SAW guy who has an M16A1 but then you have ammo incompatibility. There is already a SAW called Minimi, IIRC.

I think in the original 20" M16/A1 the M193 bullet performs well. When they started monkeying around with the twist and the bullet, they did not improve it, especially when they started making the short bbled versions.

[Ben Swenson]

I think everyone knows that the 7.62x51 is a one shot stopper.

Sure, sure ... "everyone knows" one shot of 7.62x51 will stop anyone no matter where it hits them. It'll blow them back sixteen feet through a plate glass window and all that.

As is oft repeated...
There ain't no magic cartridge.

Don't get me wrong - .308/7.62x51 is a great load, but it's not the magical super cartridge it is made out to be.

[DMK]

The military need to stop this "play nice" crap and start using HPs or even softpoints.

I never understood why HPs are considered inhumane, but Claymores and buckshot aren't.

The military can't use HPs on our enemies, but Police can use them on our own citizens (granted, crimminals). Has anybody ever heard LEOs complain about the stopping power of the .223 rounds?

Sure AP rounds have a place, but aren't they more of a specialty round? Not a general purpose one size fits all.

So you're saying that despite first hand information from the soldiers with experience telling you that 5.56mm WILL NOT stop a man with one solid hit and that 7.62mm WILL stop a man with one solid hit that they are wrong?

All's I have to say to you is velocity isn't everything! Stopping power and long distance accuracy are very critical issues for soldiers in the field.

Any of you want to argue which round has more stopping power?

The issue of states not allowing hunting with .223 for deer should be a dead giveaway. Any .30cal round, including 30 carbine has more stopping power and defeats cover better than .223rem.

The issue of recoil in full auto doesn't matter if your full auto isn't stopping your opponents!

.223rem feels like a pop-gun, sounds like a pop-gun, and recoils like a pop-gun because IT IS a pop-gun, an impotent, ineffective round for stopping anything bigger than a hedge hog!

My .02

[C.R.Sam]

At 30 yards, I hit him with a blast of double-ought buck. It picked him up off his feet and he didn't get up again."

Lost credibility with me with that statement.

Sam

[dfaugh]

although I bet the 00 buck had a LOT more effect than the .223 rounds did...

I know you asked for 1st hand experience...sorry don't have it... Do have close second hand experience from 2 close friends that served in Vietnam...One (army)carried his M-16, but also an AK-47 that he'd "captured"...He used the AK as long as he could scrounge ammo for it...Only resorted to M-16 when he ran outa ammo for AK...The other was a Force-Recon Marine, who "refused" to carry what he called "that POS toy rifle" and demanded that he be given an M-14(he got in trouble for this), which I'm I'm told was still somewhat available to the Marines...

Having said all that, as noted on th many other threads for thiis debate, it VERY unlikely that this will change... There are other advantages to the lighter round (mainly resupply, and load carrying)...and few battles are won anymore in "gunfights", we just call in the heavy stuff...

I wouldn't wanna be out there with one of those things, though, fortunatley I have a choice, and it ain't .223

[BigG]

Sam, Yup. Watched too many John Woo flicks, I reckon.

[Shawn Dodson]

It is interesting because it has first hand reports from the battle field.

The credibility of these "reports" is questionable.

I think everyone knows that the 7.62x51 is a one shot stopper.

I don't. Could you provide verified and validated evidence to support this claim? What about Randy Weaver, who was hit in the shoulder by a single .30 caliber bullet fired by an FBI sniper at Ruby Ridge. Maybe he didn't know he was hit by a "one shot stopper" bullet?

I would like to hear from some vets with first hand experience about the effectiveness of the 7.62x39 round in the SKS or the AK47. First hand only and not theory b.s.

Maj. Milavic, USMC (Ret) personally e-mailed me a few of his rants. When I began questioning the credibility of the "battlefield reports," specifically the "report" of the NVA soldier impossibly being picked up off his feet by a blast of #00 buckshot; the incorrect wounding effects of the M855 cartridge described in Black Hawk Down (...but that very penetrating power meant that his rounds were passing right through his targets …. The bullet made a small, clean hole, and unless it happened to hit the heart or spine, it wasn't enough to stop a man in his tracks.); and how often these alleged "failures to stop" occurred in relation to incidents in which the 5.56mm cartridge worked in order to obtain a true perspective of the "problem", I stopped getting e-mails from him.

None of these "battlefield reports" are credible, in my opinion. But facts won't stop somebody who has an axe to grind

[70-101]

"Replacement for US standard issue infantry longarm".In the general discussion forum. From yesterday.

[Blackhawk]

The good Major is an entertaining writer even if he sometimes doesn't let facts get in the way. I enjoyed his eulogy for LTC Stanley Wawrzyniak on 11 Jan 96.

[Scott Conklin]

A man in a run, especially a possibly unstable run, hit from any angle but straight on will, most likely, be "picked off his feet" simply by his own momentum as he folds up and goes down. I'd have to hear more than just a quote from someone possibly not good at conveying his meaning/description before I'd write him off.

The 7.62 not a "magic bullet"? In a sense I'd disagree. For a military cartridge it is, very possibly, the closest thing we've ever had to just that. Considering the weight of the M16 these days with heavy barrell, a couple mags hanging from it and various other "systems" I really fail to see why we're planning on sticking with the pip-squeak cartridge. The weight savings argument is dubious at best and I don't know of any other supposed advantages. That being the case it seems nonsensical to not give soldiers an arguably better round AND give them the peace of mind that goes with it.

[Jim V]

How was it that the Air Force got to chose the rifle for the ground pounders? Isn't that kinda like the Coast Guard deciding on the next jet fighter system to put into operation? Or the 53rd Typewriter Repair Brigade picking the next attack submarine.



Of course the entire story on the 7.62X51 round, the M-14 and their adoption is not pretty either. NIH at its worse.

[Long Path]

...so I'm moving this one to The Art Of The Rifle.



[Here ya go, Art! ]

[STLRN]

How was it that the Air Force got to chose the rifle for the ground pounders? Isn't that kinda like the Coast Guard deciding on the next jet fighter system to put into operation? Or the 53rd Typewriter Repair Brigade picking the next attack submarine

They didn't. The AF wanted it as a weapon for use by their SPs, ordered some but Congress wouldn't fund it so it would have died on the vine. The Army SF saw the weapon, took some to Vietnam, were it won rave reviews causing pressure for the whole of the army to adopt it. When Springfield Armory and the Ordnance department got a hold of it they screwed it up royally, and it took many years and a few American lives to correct the problems created by the ordnance department of the army.

[DMK]

The Army SF saw the weapon, took some to Vietnam, were it won rave reviews

Sometimes I wonder how our military is as successful as it is depite our civilian leaders trying to make themselves look good.

Special Forces could probably do fairly well with a bunch of 10/22s. Doesn't make it an especially capable rifle for Joe G.I.

[Armadillo]

People who have made up their mind on a issue will ignore whatever evidence goes counter to their opinion. There is a wide body of evidence concerning the battle effectiveness of 5.56x45mm, starting in Vietnam, and the last 30 years have proven it amply: the little guy works. But if you insist that nothing less than .30 caliber is good, then you'll latch onto whatever anectodal "evidence" you can find. Hell, we could make a point that the 12 gauge "OO" buckshot is ineffective, since there are well documented failures of it to stop. Any caliber, whatever it is, from a hand-held weapon, has had failures to stop at one time or another. Has the 5.56x45 failed on ocassion? Of course it has! But the number of times it has done a super job (in either military or police situations far outnumbers its failures.

Oponents point to the BlackHawck down "failures" as "proof" that it doesn't do the job. Never mind that it was only one guy complaining, and that he was armed with an 11.5" CAR-15 (not enough velocity to cause fragmentation). The guys with SAWs and 20" A2 didn't have any problems at all. But people concentrate only on what Sgt. Howe said, ignore his situation, and the dozens of Rangers who didn't have performance problems.

[Andrew Wyatt]

5.56mm ball is a perfectly adequite stopper. (see fackler's site for pictures of the wound channel)

However, the green tip tungsten cored stuff doesn't fragment at all. It's not designed for shooting into soft things, and instead merely mokes .22 caliber holes in things.

Any centerfire rifle hit is more than adequite for thin skinned two legged air breathers, provided proper shot placement is used.

[stinger]

223rem feels like a pop-gun, sounds like a pop-gun, and recoils like a pop-gun because IT IS a pop-gun, an impotent, ineffective round for stopping anything bigger than a hedge hog!

Would you care to step in front of one? Me neither.

7.62 is a proven stopper. So is 223.

You can carry about twice as many rounds of 223 as 308. You can more easily control full auto or select fire with 223. You give up very little, if any, kill power with 223. It has proven itself time and time again. Sure, people don't always fall face down after one hit. But they didn't with 30'06 either.

This comes up EVERY day. Same arguments, same misconceptions, same BS.


Stinger

[C.R.Sam]

Eyewitness accounts are good and bad. Statistical gleanings from a small number of accounts are often bogus.

"Any centerfire rifle hit is more than adequite for thin skinned two legged air breathers, provided proper shot placement is used."....Andrew Wyatt.

Very true.

My little group once bailed out another team that had been trapped. 10 man team, all 10 hit.....probably mostly by AK fire. All 10 contributed to the core defense untill help arrived. Most had multiple wounds, some serious. ALL SURVIVED.

Does this mean the AK is an ineffective close range battle gun ?

NO.....it means only that those 10 were very very lucky and as long as they were breathing, they were effectively defending themselves.

Back to what Mr. Wyatt said. Good hits count, poor hits don't. Regardless of caliber.

Sam

[PATH]

Sam you are spot on! I will say that I have a personal preference for the .308 or .30-06.

I just like the damn things. Hell, I don't own anything that shoots .223.

[Shawn Dodson]

However, the green tip tungsten cored stuff doesn't fragment at all. It's not designed for shooting into soft things, and instead merely mokes .22 caliber holes in things.

M16A1 5.56x45mm 55gr M193 FMJ:


M16A2 5.56x45mm 62gr M855 "Green Tip" FMJ:


M14 7.62x51mm 147gr M80 FMJ:


AK-47 7.62x39mm 123gr FMJ:

[VVG]

People who have made up their mind on a issue will ignore whatever evidence goes counter to their opinion. There is a wide body of evidence concerning the battle effectiveness of 5.56x45mm, starting in Vietnam, and the last 30 years have proven it amply: the little guy works. But if you insist that nothing less than .30 caliber is good, then you'll latch onto whatever anectodal "evidence" you can find.

You got that right! These discussions always ignore the fact that YOU HAVE TO CARRY THE STUFF!

I carried an M14 for a while in the Ranger course (before the SAW was fielded, it was used as a squad automatic weapon in a Ranger squad). I also collect M1 Garands. Carry a 400 round box of 30.06 around for a while, along with the 9.5 lb Garand, and it'll help put the matter back in perspective. Run a couple of miles down city streets with no water for 24 hours and with people shooting at you out of every window, and the perspective will be even more clear. The 5.56 round has 1500 ft lbs of muzzle energy - I din't want to be hit by one, even a little.

[Armadillo]

The myth that M855 (green tip ball ammo) doesn't fragment comes, I'm sure, from Blackhawk down. That infamous quote from Master Sgt . Howe has caused so many misunderstandings of the round. First of all, it's not a tungsten-cored round, as described in the book. It's just plain lead core, with an 8-grain steel insert. The jacket and cannelure are very similar to M193, and when driven at the appropiate velocities (like the kind you DO NOT get out of an 11.5" CAR-15) it breaks apart just fine.

I'm sure it doesn't have relevance with real world results, but shooting road kill (dead racoons are plentiful in my area) produces some spectacular results with M855 (out of an 20" AR). I shudder to think of that little thing doing the same to my innards...

[ankara36]

A .338 Lapua has even more 'stopping power' than a 7.62x51 NATO, so why not issue weapons that shoot that?

I think this debate will continue until some dumb sap tries to prove 5.56 is ineffective by having his buddy shoot him with an AR-15 while they're on a bender one night.

Maybe he'll make the Darwin Awards.