Urban Carbine Fraud!

[Dave3006]

It is a trend to tout the .223 carbine as an urban weapon. Read any gun rag. Look at the newsgroups. There are plenty of
classes labeled "urban carbine" teaching people to use this weapon in the city for everything from home defense to situations to
riots. I used to believe short barreled AR15 carbine would be the ideal weapon due to it's user friendliness, versatility, and ammo
capacity.

Then, I did a simple penetration test at 25 yards with hollowpoint and FMJ ammunition. I was completely shocked at the results.
This weapon, in an urban environment, will dramatically penetrate into building material if you miss the bad guy. You don't
believe me? Try it yourself. You owe it to yourself. The result could very likely be the death of an innocent person in a nearby
house. I know people say .223 penetrates less than 9mm... blah...blah... Maybe it does? Have you tried it personally? Don't
take my word for it. Try testing .223 in something simulating the outside of your neighbors house. And, then ask yourself - What
if I miss?

My conclusion is that the "urban carbine" is a myth. The only long gun suitable for urban situations is a shotgun. I know I will
get flamed. Do me a favor, do not flame me until you have tried your own test. Then you can than me. I love rifles. They are
more fun to shoot than shotguns or handguns for me. They are perfect for rural situations or full scale war. They are NOT
urban weapons.

[Satanta]

Dave, no argument from me. The only reason I'd want an AK or AR or similar for 'Urban Use' is if it got really bad and the neighbors were burning down houses in the 'hood.

Otherwise a shotgun and maybe 9mm carbine or the like is personal preffrence for household use.

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Satanta, the Whitebear
Sat's Realm: http://SatantasRealm.tripod.com/Entr...entrypage.html

My Disability petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/DisbHelp/petition.html

[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited August 18, 2000).]

[Art Eatman]

Being older and more cynical, if not wiser, I just write it down to "marketing": Nobody ever went broke underestimating the bad taste of the American public; and, never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

I was at a gunstore today, and the dealer was griping at the incredible variety of "stuff" put out by the gun makers and ammo makers. And stuff that's available this year may well not be in the line, next year. A good example is the spate of different-sized pistols from Colt--I don't even know what half the names mean! (I'd prefer fewer models, and more quality control.)

I handled a Howa bolt-action in .308. Now, a 700ADL is around $365 at WalMart; this small dealer wanted $379 for the Howa. The stock on the Howa is ten times better than the Remington, and overall, the gun feels better. The PR boys have made the 700 into a cultist's fetish...

"Tactical" and "Police" and "Sniper". 'Scuse me? How in #$$%%# does black plastic make anything shoot better? "Marketing", sez me.

Funny: Single-shot and side-by-side doubles in 12-gauge have been defending homes for well over a century. And I want to meet the guy with cojones big enough to remain facing the sound of a pump-gun locking into battery!

Rant mode off,

Art

[Oleg Volk]

Personally, if I picked a rifle for urban fighting, it would be a 30-cal (Garand or M1A or FAL) because penetration of cover would be a big plus. I do not extect to have a grenade launcher available at first and so would benefit from extra punch. However, the pig positive aspect of shotguns is the lower noise level. I am pretty sure that firing a 30-06 or a 223 from home would do more damage to easrs than a 20ga shotgun.

[Dave3006]

The rifles you mentioned are great rifles. However, what will you do when your round penetrates the home of your neighbor down the street and kills their 5 year old little girl?

I would rather the bad guy kill me than hurt an innocent person.

[George Hill]

Dave3006 - I understand your sentiments...
Imagine the situation in a trailer-home... Building materials in Trailer Parks are much thinner resulting in even more penetration.

Rifle ammo does penetrate very well. Unless you use the right ammo.

Try your tests with Frangible ammunition. Hornady TAP, or VX Varmit loads if your a civilain - is a good option. Bullets designed to break up on impact of hard materials are what you need to load into your Carbine for Urban use. FMJ is MADE to penetrate and cut through light barriers... and sheet rock is a light barrier.

[Dave3006]

You mention "the right ammo". Has even one person tested penetration of this magic ammo in building like materials? I am amazed at the assumptions that people make about something so serious. Everything is heresay. It is mindboggling to think that my simple test could be so revealing!

Have you tried this ammo for testing under these conditions?

P.S.

The hollowpoint .223 American Eagle 52 grain rounds sailed through 4 3/4" plywood boards on my test. Before this, everyone said hollowpoints were good non-penetrators.

[Art Eatman]

Dave 3006: Back when the mountains weren't as tall, various articles in gunzines spoke of .220 Swift bullets "breaking up on grass sprigs".

My father loaded some max-load 40-grainers in his Swift, and shot at a target mounted on a sheet of cardboard. 100 yards. About 10+/- inches behind the target was another sheet of cardboard. .22 hole in the target, a mess of itty-bitty holes--specks--in the second sheet.

I'm purely guessing that some of these 35-grain bullets could be loaded hot enough in a .223 to get similar performance. I have no idea if a Mini 14 or AR-15 would cycle.

FWIW, Art

[Gipperdog]

One of the reasons the 220 Swift had the reputation of bullets breaking up on next to nothing was only partly due to their forward velocity. A great deal of the frangibility of extremely high velocity bullets is due to it's rotational velocity. I read where the rotational velocity of an average 220 Swift was somewhere in the area of 180,000 rpm. Of course this rpm depends on the twist rate of the barrel. But bullets traveling at the speed of an average .223 may have the same rotational velocity of the 220 Swift but not the forward velocity combined to make the load more fragil. You push a bullet along at 4000 fps & have a 180,000 rpm, and a bullet built for varmints, you have a pretty explosive combination. Now, that's not to say that you won't get some penatration, you will. But I believe that the .223 will outpenetrate a 220 Swift with the same bullets used.

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Guard Freedom from those that "want to do it for the Children."

[Mike Irwin]

Hey Art, I'm interested in the Remington 700 action for one reason; I'm firmly of the belief that it is the BEST action made today on which to build a superbly accurate rifle.

Of all of the actions I've worked with, including Howa, Remington's are made to the best tolerances and specs.

That's why my groundhog gun is built on a Remington 700 action.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

[BB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You mention "the right ammo". Has even one person tested penetration of this magic ammo in building like materials?[/quote]

read this, I think it will clear this up:
Olympic Arms .223 penetration tests

Read "Real World Test #2"

[This message has been edited by BB (edited August 17, 2000).]

[johnwill]

I've kept my AR handy for home defense for years, and I have to disagree with the "fact" that it's not a good home defense gun. Any gun has a potential penetration problem in a truly dense urban setting, but not everyone lives in such a setting. I live in a valley where all my neighbors are a few hundred feet from my house, and significantly higher in elevation. There are no houses up and down the valley, and I feel my choice of the AR is a sound one. I found the links to penetration tests in this thread interesting too, since I had heard from several sources that penetration of the .223 wasn't the problem that some feel that it is, nice to see some facts to back that up.

[Red Bull]

I have done the tests and 9mm does penetrate hard targets worse than .223. You have to consider what the bullet does after it passes through the material. .223 will make it through but lose most of it's mass and velocity in doing so. 9mm has a lot of punch left after it passes through these materials. Yes, I have tested it myself.
I have a nice shotgun for defense, but the only reason I grab it is because it is handy. The AR is too expensive and it is locked up. If I had my choice, my AR carbine would be the gun of choice. If you are trained in it's use, it is the weapon of choice.
I would not be so quick to dismiss it. Just because it is not your choice, and not the old school option, does not mean that it is without merit.

[Onslaught]

You got there before I did, Red Bull... I will not argue with Dave3006, he did half his homework. You tested the theory yourself, and proved that .223 will penetrate a LOT of stuff before it stops. BUT, before you can dispute claims that ".223 penetrates less than 9mm... blah...blah... " you must also test that yourself as well. Then, you must test your shotgun on this same material, under the same conditions, yourself, and give those results. You are probably right on the money, but you can't draw conclusions about 9mm or 12guage from one series of tests with a .223.

Sorry if that sounded a little "uppity", I'm still having flashbacks from all those graduate level sciences!

[Keeper]

While I don't think there is anything wrong with the the .223 I think a shotgun is a better over all choice. For me the noise the carbines produce is way to much for an inclosed space with no hearing protection. And with #5 to 7 shot you can plant a bad guy just as fast and still not have to worry about over penetration. Along with this even at close ranges an 18.5 inch barreled 12 gauge will give a decent spread and better chance to make the first shot count.

[Dave3006]

Johnwill, you described something that is not an urban environment if you have this much distance to your neighbors. The rifle might make sense. I am talking about URBAN environments in a typical housing development.

Don't make me laugh about the Olympic tests - I wonder if they could be lying to sell more carbines? Hmmm.

[chmeyers]

After digesting the above comments and observations, I can tell you that side-by-side using ballistic profiles and having done research in this area, .223 will always impart greater penetration and kinetic energy than any 9 mm load. Of course this means that overpenetration may be a concern in close quarters. It is no accident that SWAT units and urban assault teams use shotguns and low velocity weapons such as 9 mm select-fire weapons for this reason. Common centerfire rifle cartridges such as 30-06 can take down a masonry wall as has been documented with the BAR. I wouldn't even consider these weapons in a close quarters situation.

[Will Beararms]

The Arkansas State Police have recently gone to the Glock 21. I am seeing many agenicies at all levels re-visiting the .45ACP. The .357 Sig is a great hitter but I question its safety in an urban environment.

It's high time that we get back to what our Grandfathers already knew: the .45ACP in a pistol and sub-gun make an awsome package that can have the overpenetration issue managed.

Sorry, just my h.o.

[Bogie]

Don't forget intimidation value - Should TSHTF in my neighborhood, there's gonna be a really ugly guy on my apartment building's roof, armed with a visible AK-47 variant with a 40 round magazine - Let the bad guys know to go somewhere else...

Of course, should anything less than full-scale riots occur, then it's time for my antique shotgun...

[Bogie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Irwin:
Hey Art, I'm interested in the Remington 700 action for one reason; I'm firmly of the belief that it is the BEST action made today on which to build a superbly accurate rifle.
[/quote]

Mike, you need to look at the custom actions, like the Hall, Stolle and even the Rampro... You can get 'em with a right handed bolt, but the loading port on the left side, etc... Much more consistent than the Remington actions, which generally require truing and sleeving in order to be competitive on the same level. A "remington-style" action is a must for one thing - you want to be able to hang a Jewell trigger off of it.

However, the best bang for an "out of the box" varmint rifle is probably the Savage 12BVSS-S single shot laminate stock varminter...

[George Hill]

Yes Dave - I HAVE tested... I NEVER said that about Hollow Points. Most people know when a hollow point clogs up it turns into Ball Ammo.

I tested the Hornady VX stuff and it breaks apart very well I dont know how it will perform for you - but it worked just as advertised when I tested it.

BTW - I test ALL my ammo. ALL of it. If I buy a box of ammo that I never tried before - before it becomes "DUTY AMMO" it gets tested. My tests are conducted different depending upon caliber and this rounds "mission". Testing incuded Auto Windshields and all sorts of building materials... Articles of clothing as well.
This is because I take guns very seriously and do not put a whole lot of faith into gun magazines. "The Right Ammo" is key to every shooting problem. There is no one Magic, do all bullet, load, or even caliber.

(accept maybe .45ACP)

[Art Eatman]

Yup. Some folks like the Debutantes' Ball; George like the Hard Ball--and he plays the music!

Me? Aw, I just read to 'em from the Scriptures. The first nine verses from the Book of Colt.

, Art

[Hard Ball]

My "urban Carbine" is a peaceful Winchester Model 94 .44 Magnum/.44 Special. Out to a hundred yards it will get the jpb done.

[Shin-Tao]

Frangible ammunition is FRANGIBLE. Turns into Fragments when it hits hard surfases.

HAVE YOU TESTED IT!?

Yes. Pull your head out. You think you stumbled on an obvious truth about projectiles and ballistics no one else ever noticed?

Go test V-max and frangible rounds then come lecture us on fraud.



[This message has been edited by Shin-Tao (edited August 18, 2000).]

[George Hill]

20 bucks for 6 rounds of frangible is expensive... (even more for rifle calibers) testing will easily set you back a hundred bucks or more.
However - you will, in the end, find that the tests are a good investment.