Workplace death threats against me.

DAL · February 26, 2000, 10:04 PM

I am a supervisor at a manufacturing plant and I recently became aware, via another employee, of death threats made by one of my long-time problem-child employees towards me. He specifically stated that if he were ever fired, he would have nothing left to loose and that he would go to his car, get his gun, and kill me and at least one other employee he has a grudge against.

This employee, let's call him BGB, is a so-so performer (although he thinks he's God's gift to the company) who has a history of bellicose behavior. Rarely does a month go by that he isn't in an argument with someone. I've documented most of these incidents and now his file and his fate with the company rests in HR's (Human Resources) hands. I'll find out what they'll decide next week; meanwhile, BGB is on unpaid suspension.

Why am I telling you all this? Because if he does follow through on his threat, I want it known that I do NOT blame guns, the availability of guns, or gun manufacturers for my demise. I blame only the sick individual who wielded the gun, and possibly my company for not doing more to protect its unarmed, vulnerable employees.

Now, having said that, I don't really believe that he will follow through on his threats, mainly because he is somewhat of a coward. But, in case I don't post here anymore, you'll know why.
DAL

P.S. I'll let you know the outcome of this next week...I hope.

------------------
Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.
GOA, JPFO, PPFC, CSSA, LP, NRA

[This message has been edited by DAL (edited February 26, 2000).]

SB · February 26, 2000, 10:28 PM

Please stay safe and godspeed.

Gopher · February 26, 2000, 10:31 PM

Just in case: lock, load, and conceal.

Bulldog · February 26, 2000, 10:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...so-so performer (although he thinks he's God's gift to the company) who has a history of bellicose behavior. Rarely does a month go by that he isn't in an argument with someone. I've documented most of these incidents and now his file and his fate with the company rests in HR's (Human Resources) hands...[/quote]

Boy, does that ever sound familiar.

In my experience, most folks like this are all talk. That said, it's better to be safe than sorry.

Just a few weeks ago, we had an employee who made similar threats regarding his immediate supervisor. Like you, his supervisor learned of the threats through someone else.

After these threats were discovered, we decided it was time for the guy to go. I filled in for that supervisor and sent the problem-child home. In addition, I had another supervisor with me in case he decided to give us any problems.

When he showed up for work that night, and his access card wasn't working (deactivated 2 days prior), he asked what the problem was. I simply told him to report to human resources the following business morning. We didn't use the threats as the official reason for termination, because there was enough reason for termination due to the accumulation of other incidents. However, if, somewhere down the line, he decides to make a racial issue out of the termination (where he has no case anyways), the threats will be revealed with a written statement from the fella who reported the threats (who is of the same race as the terminated employee).

With people like this, it's not very wise to just come out and say "Go home... You're fired..." A more organized, low-key approach tends to make things go more smoothly. In some cases, such as yours, it might even be prudent to involve a law enforcement presence during the actual notification of termination.

------------------
Bulldawg: NRA, GOA, TSRA, Shiner Bock Connoisseur.
Bulldawg's Firearms Page

[This message has been edited by Bulldog (edited February 26, 2000).]

TOMBERGSTR · February 26, 2000, 10:38 PM

This may not be much but I have a small idea here . If you can get one of these people to repeat this to a police officer they can get a warrant to search his car . If he is halfway serious then he has his gun loaded . I am assumung this is a violation in your state . If he is also parked on company property it may get him fired AND the gun taken away by the officer . Just a thought .

------------------
TOM SASS MEMBER AMERICAN LEGION MEMBER NRA MEMBER

DC · February 26, 2000, 10:48 PM

DAL...

You've gotten excellent advice here. Please follow it...don't be a macho.
Best of luck

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!

RikWriter · February 26, 2000, 10:54 PM

Having a loaded gun in your car is perfectly legal in many states. That probably wouldn't be enough by itself, but perhaps with the testimony of the coworkers about the threats it could get him arrested.

Marcus46 · February 26, 2000, 11:28 PM

Most companies have a no firearms policy for liability reasons.So it doesn't matter if its loaded or not,if he does have a gun in his car and parks on company property that in itself is grounds for termination.

[This message has been edited by Marcus46 (edited February 26, 2000).]

Jeff Thomas · February 26, 2000, 11:33 PM

I have the impression by your post that the company does not allow its employees to be armed.

If so, is this perhaps a good time to:
1. Request special dispensation under that policy so that you can reasonably defend yourself, at least from the car to the security office?
2. Perhaps ignore that policy, at least under these circumstances?
3. If they absolutely refuse to allow you to carry, and they do not have adequate, alternative defense (metal detectors, armed guards, security checks, etc.), then a certified letter from you to them, return receipt requested, documenting your attempt to defend yourself and their refusal?

Better to be judged by 12 (or the co.), than to be carried by 6, no?

None of us can absolutely protect against a determined nutcase, but you have the skills and tools, no? I'm sure you already have done this, but please consider all options to defend your life.

After all, if you don't keep posting on TFL, how do you think Rich is going to keep paying the rent?

Take care. Really. Regards from AZ

Jffal · February 27, 2000, 12:48 AM

"...metal detectors, armed guards,
security checks"

If the company is willing to initiate
precautions that are not already in
place, they had better insure that their
parking facilities are secure. Indoor
metal detectors and whatnot wont deter a
lot ambush.

On the otherhand, this incident is likely
to fizzle out; most such harsh words are
not worth the air needed to spit them
out.
Jeff

loknload · February 27, 2000, 01:06 AM

Just watch your back fellas and don't take any chances, Play it safe.... Don't become a headline. These actions taken could have been just enough to send him over the edge.

------------------
The great body of our citizens shoot less as time goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step- in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come- is to teach men to shoot!
Theodore Roosevelt, President

cjb · February 27, 2000, 01:28 AM

I have met a few jerks like this. Sounds like alot of talk, but you never can be sure.
I would report this to the police. If you are like me, your life is too busy to have to worry about crap like this. Watch yourself, stay aware of whats going on, keep a lookout for his car. Carry your damn gun when you can. This crap makes me mad because SH@#heads like him make us pro-gunners look like idiots! TAKE CARE MAN !!!! HOPE TO HERE FROM YOU NEXT WEEK!
( do LEOS need a warrant to search a car? I didn't think they had to, because they are so easily movable. Any LEOS know the answer?)
CJB

cjb · February 27, 2000, 01:32 AM

" hope to HERE from you next week"
SPEAKING OF IDIOTS!!!!
When I get upset, I don't watch what I'm typing!!!
Never had HOOKED ON PHONICS!!!!!!!
CJB

PumpBlast · February 27, 2000, 02:57 AM

I too work with a guy who I suspect could go postal. His anger is not with me, but the company in general. I went out and bought a North American Arms .22Mag revolver. I keep it in the side pocket of my Carhart pants. No one knows it's there. Just my little secret. The element of suprise......

------------------
Gun control is People Control

jeffelkins · February 27, 2000, 02:59 AM

Keep safe Dal! I'd consider getting LE involved.

Piggy · February 27, 2000, 04:12 AM

Please inform your local PD and seek special permission from your company to carry until this is sorted out. At least have some pepper spray and a good 12 guage flare gun in your attache case. It's better than nothing. I think you are morally (though not legally) justified if you choose to break the law by carrying a weapon until things blow over. Remember, you have to ultimately answer to God, not Bill Klinton. I'd rather break the law and be able to defend myself, that be a good boy and wind up as maggot food.

Ottergal · February 27, 2000, 04:19 AM

Sending angels to watch over you....
Watch your back, my friend.

Gwinnydapooh · February 27, 2000, 05:45 AM

I decided awhile back not to carry because it's illegal here but in your situation I think I'd go ahead. You have to decide. Be extremely careful no matter what. Damn.

pluspinc · February 27, 2000, 06:30 AM

Pepper spray my ass. Get a small can of EZ-Off oven cleaner. Take the nozzle off and open it up with hot needle. It will spray 20 feet or so and take down an elephant on drugs with inflammed piles.
Also keep a written diary of everything including hang up phone calls and converesations. Get a cell phone and have it ON you at all times. They are CHEAP. You can get some with a $9.00 a month plan.
Write down his discription and full information on his car. Make sure folks have it.
If confronted avoid it. If you can't do what you gotta do. No job is worth getting killed over. Laws or not I'd have a small compact gun ON me at all times.
If you do fire him, do it and have police on hand to escort him off property. They may find a way to search his car or watch for him to return.
If you get a witness to a threat your state probably has a terroristic threats law. In Minnesota it is a felony. Nothing to laugh at.
Also warn family members. These nuts often go after the family.
Get a caller ID and keep it in place and make sure the phone has a "memo" feature allowing you to record calls.
Keep us advised.

fubsy · February 27, 2000, 07:08 AM

You might consider a touch activated recorder for any future conversations with this guy,,,,the same kind the police use.....fubsy.

labgrade · February 27, 2000, 08:21 AM

If you think this threat is viable in any way, I'd suggest a bit of "extra heavy clothing" if you catch my drift.

The suggestion of walking the guy through the whole HR bit is a good idea - spread the wealth, as it were. & do have LEO presence. We had a couple very similar situations & the LEOs were more than glad to cooperate. Too much of this stuff happening these days & LEO would be sadly remiss if they didn't take it seriously as well.

Cell phone - sure. But, it won't save your life. You'll be responsible for that. LEOs will come to pick up the pieces & document what happened. (Zip LEO flames but that's reality)

Check 6, DAL & fingers crossed for a post next week.

**4V50 Gary** · February 27, 2000, 08:32 AM

I knew a woman with problems. One coworker told her to get a restraining order. She did. The other suggested she buy a gun. She did that too.

The armed perpetrator forced her off the road and jumped on the hood of her car. She shot first - through her windshield.

My point? That restraining didn't prevent the perp from attempting to assault her (gee, I wonder why?). But it helped close the case when the DA ruled self defense. I hope it never comes to that for you Dal.

------------------
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

HS · February 27, 2000, 08:59 AM

Do GET L.E. involved EVERY time a threat is communicated to you, either directly or indirectly.
A record is your best defense if it goes to H.I.A.H.B.

If not for yourself, do it for your Family !

------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
E-mail [email protected]
Alternate E-mail
[email protected]

Glenn E. Meyer · February 27, 2000, 01:48 PM

Might have missed this but talk to your own lawyer and see if it is worth writing a letter to the company about their liability to you.

Spyderco and a NAA mini ain't a bad idea either. OC is more concealable than Easy-Off.

LawDog · February 27, 2000, 02:18 PM

Okay, a Peace Officer can look in the car windows, and if something is in plain sight (Plain Sight Doctrine) and is unlawful, then the Peace Officer is justified in entering the car for the purpose of seizing the unlawful item.

If the Peace Officer cannot see anything, then a search warrant must be obtained before the vehicle can be entered and searched.

While the EZ-Off is an excellent example of Deadly Force, there may be a problem with intentionally and knowingly modifying the can to increase range, and lethality before you are actually faced with Death or Serious Bodily Injury.

I, personally, wouldn't do it, but that is up to you to decide.

I strongly favor the ASP KeyDefenders. They usually run between $20-$30 and look totally innocuous on a keychain.

Also, be aware that in most States, it is unlawful to utter threats against another person, if the threats, or the person uttering them, would cause a reasonable person to fear for his life.

Good luck, stay frosty, and let us know how it goes.

LawDog

February 26, 2000, 10:04 PM	#1
DAL Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1999 Location: Colorado Springs, CO, USA Posts: 653	I am a supervisor at a manufacturing plant and I recently became aware, via another employee, of death threats made by one of my long-time problem-child employees towards me. He specifically stated that if he were ever fired, he would have nothing left to loose and that he would go to his car, get his gun, and kill me and at least one other employee he has a grudge against. This employee, let's call him BGB, is a so-so performer (although he thinks he's God's gift to the company) who has a history of bellicose behavior. Rarely does a month go by that he isn't in an argument with someone. I've documented most of these incidents and now his file and his fate with the company rests in HR's (Human Resources) hands. I'll find out what they'll decide next week; meanwhile, BGB is on unpaid suspension. Why am I telling you all this? Because if he does follow through on his threat, I want it known that I do NOT blame guns, the availability of guns, or gun manufacturers for my demise. I blame only the sick individual who wielded the gun, and possibly my company for not doing more to protect its unarmed, vulnerable employees. Now, having said that, I don't really believe that he will follow through on his threats, mainly because he is somewhat of a coward. But, in case I don't post here anymore, you'll know why. DAL P.S. I'll let you know the outcome of this next week...I hope. ------------------ Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school. GOA, JPFO, PPFC, CSSA, LP, NRA [This message has been edited by DAL (edited February 26, 2000).]

February 26, 2000, 10:28 PM	#2
SB Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 1998 Posts: 415	Please stay safe and godspeed.

February 26, 2000, 10:31 PM	#3
Gopher Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1999 Location: Texas USA Posts: 367	Just in case: lock, load, and conceal.

February 26, 2000, 10:35 PM	#4
Bulldog Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 564	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...so-so performer (although he thinks he's God's gift to the company) who has a history of bellicose behavior. Rarely does a month go by that he isn't in an argument with someone. I've documented most of these incidents and now his file and his fate with the company rests in HR's (Human Resources) hands...[/quote] Boy, does that ever sound familiar. In my experience, most folks like this are all talk. That said, it's better to be safe than sorry. Just a few weeks ago, we had an employee who made similar threats regarding his immediate supervisor. Like you, his supervisor learned of the threats through someone else. After these threats were discovered, we decided it was time for the guy to go. I filled in for that supervisor and sent the problem-child home. In addition, I had another supervisor with me in case he decided to give us any problems. When he showed up for work that night, and his access card wasn't working (deactivated 2 days prior), he asked what the problem was. I simply told him to report to human resources the following business morning. We didn't use the threats as the official reason for termination, because there was enough reason for termination due to the accumulation of other incidents. However, if, somewhere down the line, he decides to make a racial issue out of the termination (where he has no case anyways), the threats will be revealed with a written statement from the fella who reported the threats (who is of the same race as the terminated employee). With people like this, it's not very wise to just come out and say "Go home... You're fired..." A more organized, low-key approach tends to make things go more smoothly. In some cases, such as yours, it might even be prudent to involve a law enforcement presence during the actual notification of termination. ------------------ Bulldawg: NRA, GOA, TSRA, Shiner Bock Connoisseur. Bulldawg's Firearms Page [This message has been edited by Bulldog (edited February 26, 2000).]

February 26, 2000, 10:38 PM	#5
TOMBERGSTR Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Posts: 104	This may not be much but I have a small idea here . If you can get one of these people to repeat this to a police officer they can get a warrant to search his car . If he is halfway serious then he has his gun loaded . I am assumung this is a violation in your state . If he is also parked on company property it may get him fired AND the gun taken away by the officer . Just a thought . ------------------ TOM SASS MEMBER AMERICAN LEGION MEMBER NRA MEMBER

February 26, 2000, 10:48 PM	#6
DC Moderator Emeritus Join Date: September 30, 1998 Location: Calif Posts: 4,229	DAL... You've gotten excellent advice here. Please follow it...don't be a macho. Best of luck ------------------ "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!

February 26, 2000, 10:54 PM	#7
RikWriter Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 1999 Posts: 2,104	Having a loaded gun in your car is perfectly legal in many states. That probably wouldn't be enough by itself, but perhaps with the testimony of the coworkers about the threats it could get him arrested.

February 26, 2000, 11:28 PM	#8
Marcus46 Member Join Date: December 16, 1999 Location: Behind the lines in PRK Posts: 18	Most companies have a no firearms policy for liability reasons.So it doesn't matter if its loaded or not,if he does have a gun in his car and parks on company property that in itself is grounds for termination. [This message has been edited by Marcus46 (edited February 26, 2000).]

February 26, 2000, 11:33 PM	#9
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	I have the impression by your post that the company does not allow its employees to be armed. If so, is this perhaps a good time to: 1. Request special dispensation under that policy so that you can reasonably defend yourself, at least from the car to the security office? 2. Perhaps ignore that policy, at least under these circumstances? 3. If they absolutely refuse to allow you to carry, and they do not have adequate, alternative defense (metal detectors, armed guards, security checks, etc.), then a certified letter from you to them, return receipt requested, documenting your attempt to defend yourself and their refusal? Better to be judged by 12 (or the co.), than to be carried by 6, no? None of us can absolutely protect against a determined nutcase, but you have the skills and tools, no? I'm sure you already have done this, but please consider all options to defend your life. After all, if you don't keep posting on TFL, how do you think Rich is going to keep paying the rent? Take care. Really. Regards from AZ

February 27, 2000, 12:48 AM	#10
Jffal Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 1999 Posts: 364	"...metal detectors, armed guards, security checks" If the company is willing to initiate precautions that are not already in place, they had better insure that their parking facilities are secure. Indoor metal detectors and whatnot wont deter a lot ambush. On the otherhand, this incident is likely to fizzle out; most such harsh words are not worth the air needed to spit them out. Jeff

February 27, 2000, 01:06 AM	#11
loknload Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 1999 Location: PA. USA Posts: 1,869	Just watch your back fellas and don't take any chances, Play it safe.... Don't become a headline. These actions taken could have been just enough to send him over the edge. ------------------ The great body of our citizens shoot less as time goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step- in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come- is to teach men to shoot! Theodore Roosevelt, President

February 27, 2000, 01:28 AM	#12
cjb Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 265	I have met a few jerks like this. Sounds like alot of talk, but you never can be sure. I would report this to the police. If you are like me, your life is too busy to have to worry about crap like this. Watch yourself, stay aware of whats going on, keep a lookout for his car. Carry your damn gun when you can. This crap makes me mad because SH@#heads like him make us pro-gunners look like idiots! TAKE CARE MAN !!!! HOPE TO HERE FROM YOU NEXT WEEK! ( do LEOS need a warrant to search a car? I didn't think they had to, because they are so easily movable. Any LEOS know the answer?) CJB

February 27, 2000, 01:32 AM	#13
cjb Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 265	" hope to HERE from you next week" SPEAKING OF IDIOTS!!!! When I get upset, I don't watch what I'm typing!!! Never had HOOKED ON PHONICS!!!!!!! CJB

February 27, 2000, 02:57 AM	#14
PumpBlast Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Posts: 45	I too work with a guy who I suspect could go postal. His anger is not with me, but the company in general. I went out and bought a North American Arms .22Mag revolver. I keep it in the side pocket of my Carhart pants. No one knows it's there. Just my little secret. The element of suprise...... ------------------ Gun control is People Control

February 27, 2000, 02:59 AM	#15
jeffelkins Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Posts: 410	Keep safe Dal! I'd consider getting LE involved.

February 27, 2000, 04:12 AM	#16
Piggy Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 1999 Location: Corpus Christi Tx, USA Posts: 141	Please inform your local PD and seek special permission from your company to carry until this is sorted out. At least have some pepper spray and a good 12 guage flare gun in your attache case. It's better than nothing. I think you are morally (though not legally) justified if you choose to break the law by carrying a weapon until things blow over. Remember, you have to ultimately answer to God, not Bill Klinton. I'd rather break the law and be able to defend myself, that be a good boy and wind up as maggot food.

February 27, 2000, 04:19 AM	#17
Ottergal Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Posts: 267	Sending angels to watch over you.... Watch your back, my friend.

February 27, 2000, 05:45 AM	#18
Gwinnydapooh Retired Screen Name Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 978	I decided awhile back not to carry because it's illegal here but in your situation I think I'd go ahead. You have to decide. Be extremely careful no matter what. Damn.

February 27, 2000, 06:30 AM	#19
pluspinc Junior member Join Date: December 30, 1999 Location: Mpls, MN. US Posts: 497	Pepper spray my ass. Get a small can of EZ-Off oven cleaner. Take the nozzle off and open it up with hot needle. It will spray 20 feet or so and take down an elephant on drugs with inflammed piles. Also keep a written diary of everything including hang up phone calls and converesations. Get a cell phone and have it ON you at all times. They are CHEAP. You can get some with a $9.00 a month plan. Write down his discription and full information on his car. Make sure folks have it. If confronted avoid it. If you can't do what you gotta do. No job is worth getting killed over. Laws or not I'd have a small compact gun ON me at all times. If you do fire him, do it and have police on hand to escort him off property. They may find a way to search his car or watch for him to return. If you get a witness to a threat your state probably has a terroristic threats law. In Minnesota it is a felony. Nothing to laugh at. Also warn family members. These nuts often go after the family. Get a caller ID and keep it in place and make sure the phone has a "memo" feature allowing you to record calls. Keep us advised.

February 27, 2000, 07:08 AM	#20
fubsy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 1999 Posts: 1,363	You might consider a touch activated recorder for any future conversations with this guy,,,,the same kind the police use.....fubsy.

February 27, 2000, 08:21 AM	#21
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	If you think this threat is viable in any way, I'd suggest a bit of "extra heavy clothing" if you catch my drift. The suggestion of walking the guy through the whole HR bit is a good idea - spread the wealth, as it were. & do have LEO presence. We had a couple very similar situations & the LEOs were more than glad to cooperate. Too much of this stuff happening these days & LEO would be sadly remiss if they didn't take it seriously as well. Cell phone - sure. But, it won't save your life. You'll be responsible for that. LEOs will come to pick up the pieces & document what happened. (Zip LEO flames but that's reality) Check 6, DAL & fingers crossed for a post next week.

February 27, 2000, 08:32 AM	#22
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,848	I knew a woman with problems. One coworker told her to get a restraining order. She did. The other suggested she buy a gun. She did that too. The armed perpetrator forced her off the road and jumped on the hood of her car. She shot first - through her windshield. My point? That restraining didn't prevent the perp from attempting to assault her (gee, I wonder why?). But it helped close the case when the DA ruled self defense. I hope it never comes to that for you Dal. ------------------ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

February 27, 2000, 08:59 AM	#23
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	Do GET L.E. involved EVERY time a threat is communicated to you, either directly or indirectly. A record is your best defense if it goes to H.I.A.H.B. If not for yourself, do it for your Family ! ------------------ "The Gun from Down Under !" http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/ E-mail [email protected] Alternate E-mail [email protected]

February 27, 2000, 01:48 PM	#24
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Might have missed this but talk to your own lawyer and see if it is worth writing a letter to the company about their liability to you. Spyderco and a NAA mini ain't a bad idea either. OC is more concealable than Easy-Off.

February 27, 2000, 02:18 PM	#25
LawDog Staff Emeritus Join Date: September 15, 1999 Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket? Posts: 4,194	Okay, a Peace Officer can look in the car windows, and if something is in plain sight (Plain Sight Doctrine) and is unlawful, then the Peace Officer is justified in entering the car for the purpose of seizing the unlawful item. If the Peace Officer cannot see anything, then a search warrant must be obtained before the vehicle can be entered and searched. While the EZ-Off is an excellent example of Deadly Force, there may be a problem with intentionally and knowingly modifying the can to increase range, and lethality before you are actually faced with Death or Serious Bodily Injury. I, personally, wouldn't do it, but that is up to you to decide. I strongly favor the ASP KeyDefenders. They usually run between $20-$30 and look totally innocuous on a keychain. Also, be aware that in most States, it is unlawful to utter threats against another person, if the threats, or the person uttering them, would cause a reasonable person to fear for his life. Good luck, stay frosty, and let us know how it goes. LawDog