Baikal or Stoeger???

bobstreit · December 5, 2000, 04:47 PM

Has anyone know or heard anything about the Baikal or Stoeger Side by Side 12 Gauge? I just don't know about the quality. I am especially looking at the Stoeger for $500. What do you think?????

huntsman · December 5, 2000, 11:06 PM

Junk & JUnk , better you save your money till you can buy something else.

bobstreit · December 5, 2000, 11:56 PM

okay, at least your blunt, that's good though, then I know what your thinking, go any suggestions on what to buy, for a reasonable price?

Dave McC · December 6, 2000, 07:33 AM

Bob, a decent price on a decent SXS might easily run into 4 figures. All the great designs were dependent on tight tolerances done by superbly trained workers. It took 15 years as an assembler for a Parker employee to make senior assembler,a system that kept Parkers back then even on the high side.

There's still a bargain or two out there, so keep your eyes open and look around. There's an old thread here about buying a used SXS that might help you out. Good luck...

huntsman · December 6, 2000, 01:47 PM

Ok bob this is what I'd do. Look for a used SKB or Browning BSS , I know the prices seem high on the net but you can still pick up something at a gunshop you just have to look.
I did this last summer when I wanted a modern 12ga double that I could shoot.I found a BSS with 28"bbls mod/full 2-3/4" with nonselective trigger,The gunshop had it awhile but couldn't get the $500. out of it .Why ? because the guys who wanted an upland gun wants open chokes short barrels lightguns,and the waterfowl guys want 3" chambers and steelshot approved chokes. So you may need to expand what your looking for, but I would rather buy I quality gun and modify it (open chokes) than buy cheap.If you don't think you can afford this then look at the savage/stevens guns but I would only buy in excelent condition.

David Roberson · December 6, 2000, 03:05 PM

Yow! A Stoeger for $500? Even the most overpriced gun shop in town here has them in the high $300s.

Your best bet: Find a used American double. A used Savage/Stevens/Springfield of some variety can be found in almost any gun shop. You also see Lefevers around occasionally, as well as Hunters (my most recent shotgun purchase). For $500 you can even get into Fox territory. Any of these guns, if not horribly abused, will have one marked advantage over any Baikal or Stoeger: They will appreciate in value. None of the Baikals or Stoegers will ever be worth as much as they are the day you buy them.

PJR · December 6, 2000, 04:23 PM

Double guns can be a confusing and risky venture. At the very least when you buy a Baikal or a Stoeger you know what you are getting. I don't agree that they are "junk." At the risk of being branded a heretic, I'd rather have a Baikal than a used gun that was off the face, had the chambers improperly lengthed or the bores reamed out to erase pitting. I've seen many guns with good names on them that were the victims of serious abuse and, even worse, backyard gunsmithing. That's the real "junk" that's out there.

I read your other post and I would have to agree that to meet all of your needs (single triger, steel shot capable and slugs) that the SKB 100 would be your top choice. The Browning BSS that others have mentioned is a good gun except that they are commanding a higher price than the SKB.

As for slug shooting, it's highly unlikely both barrels will print to the same point of aim much beyond 10 yards. If they do, it is cause for celebration.

birdog4 · December 6, 2000, 06:39 PM

Some of the older Stoeger s/s are quite decent. My brother has a Zephyr 20 gauage that is a fine little bird gun. It's held up for close to 30 years.

PJR · December 6, 2000, 07:32 PM

birddog4

Welcome!

The Stoeger Zephyr was made by Victor Sarasqueta of Spain. If you look on the action of your brother's gun you should see a VS in a circle or if the guns a little older a stamp of a running rabbit in a diamond with the letters VS. You may also see letters A.M. before the serial number. Stoeger imported guns from a variety of makers. IIRC their current guns are being manufactured in Brazil and I think may be the same guns as the ones marketed under the name Boito.

If the Stoeger in question is a Zephyr it's well worth $500 in good condition. Sarasqueta made some of the better Spanish guns.

huntsman · December 6, 2000, 08:27 PM

PJR,I agree with you on the risk of buying used doubles, believe me I learned the hard way

I bought my share of junk and I believe there's a lot being passed off as great american classics. These were sold new as knockabouts or cheap hardware guns. For along time I believe the japanese guns of 60-70's were under valued because they were japanese not because of quality, and good deals could be found. But I balk when it comes to the doubles out of south america , simply because of the rep they got buy using soft metals.Maybe junk is too strong a word I just think there are better guns for the money.

PJR · December 7, 2000, 10:11 AM

huntsman:

Learning those hard lessons is almost a rite of passage among double gunners. I can't think of anyone who hasn't learned one or two, me included. I guess those experiences are like college tuition. It's the price to you to pay to get an education.

bobstreit · December 7, 2000, 09:52 PM

Well guys, I have to say, you have all been awsome at giving me advice. And I fully appreciate it. Although, I must admit, I went down to the gunshop that had the Baikal yesterday, and I told the owner that I hadn't heard anything real good about the Baikal, and I wanted to look for something a little better, he really let me know he thought I was making a mistake. Ya, I know, he is a salesman and just trying to sell guns, but I asked him if he could keep his eyes open for me, so he knows I want to buy eventually. I am just really torn at the whole situation. i would almost rather get a new gun and take my chances with a one year warrantee. That way I can always get it replaced or return it. I don't know, I know I sound el-cheapo, but I just can't see in my financial position paying $500 for a gun that I can't return. If anyone knows anything else about the Savage, that sounds like a possibility, or not?????

bobstreit · December 7, 2000, 09:55 PM

Almost forgot, Dave McC, thanks for bringing the info back!!

PJR · December 8, 2000, 11:01 AM

Stumbled across the following during a surfing session.

http://www.gunshop.com/HyperNews/get...hop/18240.html

Seems that Baikal has a following among some pretty savvy gunowners.

bobstreit · December 9, 2000, 05:04 PM

I don't know guys, I just read that thing on another web page about Baikals, and it seems that some people are really happy with them. By no means am I saying you guys are wrong about what you said, but for a low budget gun, maybe it is a good choice. Man am I torn!!!

huntsman · December 9, 2000, 07:58 PM

Bob go for it ,then you can report on it first hand

Really the thing you need to consider is if I don't like it can I get my money out of it on the used market.You'll find out real quick what it's worth.if you can aford to lose on it or if it breaks and you can't get parts then go for it.

dog1 · December 10, 2000, 03:37 PM

I have a baikal 12ga and it has worked great for me.I have put over 200 rounds through it with no problems. After a little breaking in it shoots as good as more expensive guns. I would not hesitate to buy another one

bobstreit · December 11, 2000, 09:57 PM

Do you shoot steel shot or slugs our of your Baikal? How does it perform for you???

Hal · December 12, 2000, 06:04 AM

I know you asked more about the Russian(Bakial) than the Stoeger, but afterlooking at both real, I can't find much differece in the cosmetics of them.
I bought a Stoeger SxS Coach Gun more for looks than anything else. It isn't finely finished like a Brwoning BSS but it does have a decent tight lock up. How long it stays that way is anybody's guess. The Cowboy Shooters have since told me that for the most part, the Stoegers are working fine even after extended use. I imagine they usually shoot milder loads though, like most of the other Cowboy rounds. I've shot some slugs and 00 Buck through mine, just out of curiousity, and the results were pretty bad. Slugs printed a foot above where I pointed it at 25 yards, and about 2 feet apart from each barrel. The 00 Buck was worse

usually 2 pellets hit a 12 inch circle at 25 yards. (So much for the take it down and stow it in the trunk type of gun)The interesting thing though, is that at 50 feet, #8 loads hold a nice tight pattern, about 9 to 10 inches across,,go figure. I paid $250.00 for mine, used but unfired 3 years ago. I figure I got my money's worth out of mine. I doubt if I would use one, even with longer barrels, for anything more than a fun type of gun. It doesn't appear to be made for the long haul. I'd try some steel out of mine for ya, but somehow I don't think the thing is made for steel shot.

General Tso · December 12, 2000, 12:44 PM

FWIW, I see a lot of Stoegers and Baikals both during the season Cowboy Action Shooting. Generally I've heard favorable impressions about both with the exception of the actions being rather stiff when new.

Now, admittedly we're using these for a different style shooting than you're talking about and it is, as RAE pointed out, primarily with lighter loads, but the guns are holding up well. You tend to do a fair bit of shooting with these things in CAS, especially if you parctice much and long term durability seems to be pretty good, particularly on the Stoegers which have been around longer than the Baikals. These two guns are pretty much teh work horses of the CAS circles and probably the most common doubles you'll run across.

$500 sounds high for these guns though. I typically see Stoeger coach guns for around $299 and baikal coach guns for $199-$225 at local shows. For that money i think they're probably decent deals, for $500 I'd be inclined to agree with others here that you might be better off setting your sights a little higher. A quick look on Gunsamerica (not generally the lowest prices around) showed Stoegers in the high $200's to mid and upper $300's depending on model and Bakails in the low to upper $200's.

[Edited by General Tso on 12-13-2000 at 02:57 PM]

December 9, 2000, 07:58 PM	#16
huntsman Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2000 Location: ohio Posts: 121	Baikal Bob go for it ,then you can report on it first hand Really the thing you need to consider is if I don't like it can I get my money out of it on the used market.You'll find out real quick what it's worth.if you can aford to lose on it or if it breaks and you can't get parts then go for it.

December 12, 2000, 06:04 AM	#19
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	From the perspctive of a very raw shotgunner(me) I know you asked more about the Russian(Bakial) than the Stoeger, but afterlooking at both real, I can't find much differece in the cosmetics of them. I bought a Stoeger SxS Coach Gun more for looks than anything else. It isn't finely finished like a Brwoning BSS but it does have a decent tight lock up. How long it stays that way is anybody's guess. The Cowboy Shooters have since told me that for the most part, the Stoegers are working fine even after extended use. I imagine they usually shoot milder loads though, like most of the other Cowboy rounds. I've shot some slugs and 00 Buck through mine, just out of curiousity, and the results were pretty bad. Slugs printed a foot above where I pointed it at 25 yards, and about 2 feet apart from each barrel. The 00 Buck was worse usually 2 pellets hit a 12 inch circle at 25 yards. (So much for the take it down and stow it in the trunk type of gun)The interesting thing though, is that at 50 feet, #8 loads hold a nice tight pattern, about 9 to 10 inches across,,go figure. I paid $250.00 for mine, used but unfired 3 years ago. I figure I got my money's worth out of mine. I doubt if I would use one, even with longer barrels, for anything more than a fun type of gun. It doesn't appear to be made for the long haul. I'd try some steel out of mine for ya, but somehow I don't think the thing is made for steel shot.

December 5, 2000, 04:47 PM	#1
bobstreit Member Join Date: December 4, 2000 Posts: 21	Has anyone know or heard anything about the Baikal or Stoeger Side by Side 12 Gauge? I just don't know about the quality. I am especially looking at the Stoeger for $500. What do you think?????

December 5, 2000, 11:06 PM	#2
huntsman Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2000 Location: ohio Posts: 121	Junk & JUnk , better you save your money till you can buy something else.

December 5, 2000, 11:56 PM	#3
bobstreit Member Join Date: December 4, 2000 Posts: 21	okay, at least your blunt, that's good though, then I know what your thinking, go any suggestions on what to buy, for a reasonable price?

December 6, 2000, 07:33 AM	#4
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Bob, a decent price on a decent SXS might easily run into 4 figures. All the great designs were dependent on tight tolerances done by superbly trained workers. It took 15 years as an assembler for a Parker employee to make senior assembler,a system that kept Parkers back then even on the high side. There's still a bargain or two out there, so keep your eyes open and look around. There's an old thread here about buying a used SXS that might help you out. Good luck...

December 6, 2000, 01:47 PM	#5
huntsman Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2000 Location: ohio Posts: 121	Ok bob this is what I'd do. Look for a used SKB or Browning BSS , I know the prices seem high on the net but you can still pick up something at a gunshop you just have to look. I did this last summer when I wanted a modern 12ga double that I could shoot.I found a BSS with 28"bbls mod/full 2-3/4" with nonselective trigger,The gunshop had it awhile but couldn't get the $500. out of it .Why ? because the guys who wanted an upland gun wants open chokes short barrels lightguns,and the waterfowl guys want 3" chambers and steelshot approved chokes. So you may need to expand what your looking for, but I would rather buy I quality gun and modify it (open chokes) than buy cheap.If you don't think you can afford this then look at the savage/stevens guns but I would only buy in excelent condition.

December 6, 2000, 03:05 PM	#6
David Roberson Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: Iron Station, NC Posts: 582	Yow! A Stoeger for $500? Even the most overpriced gun shop in town here has them in the high $300s. Your best bet: Find a used American double. A used Savage/Stevens/Springfield of some variety can be found in almost any gun shop. You also see Lefevers around occasionally, as well as Hunters (my most recent shotgun purchase). For $500 you can even get into Fox territory. Any of these guns, if not horribly abused, will have one marked advantage over any Baikal or Stoeger: They will appreciate in value. None of the Baikals or Stoegers will ever be worth as much as they are the day you buy them.

December 6, 2000, 04:23 PM	#7
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	Double guns can be a confusing and risky venture. At the very least when you buy a Baikal or a Stoeger you know what you are getting. I don't agree that they are "junk." At the risk of being branded a heretic, I'd rather have a Baikal than a used gun that was off the face, had the chambers improperly lengthed or the bores reamed out to erase pitting. I've seen many guns with good names on them that were the victims of serious abuse and, even worse, backyard gunsmithing. That's the real "junk" that's out there. I read your other post and I would have to agree that to meet all of your needs (single triger, steel shot capable and slugs) that the SKB 100 would be your top choice. The Browning BSS that others have mentioned is a good gun except that they are commanding a higher price than the SKB. As for slug shooting, it's highly unlikely both barrels will print to the same point of aim much beyond 10 yards. If they do, it is cause for celebration.

December 6, 2000, 06:39 PM	#8
birdog4 Member Join Date: December 6, 2000 Posts: 27	Stoeger shotguns Some of the older Stoeger s/s are quite decent. My brother has a Zephyr 20 gauage that is a fine little bird gun. It's held up for close to 30 years. __________________ grouse hunting is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.

December 6, 2000, 07:32 PM	#9
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	birddog4 Welcome! The Stoeger Zephyr was made by Victor Sarasqueta of Spain. If you look on the action of your brother's gun you should see a VS in a circle or if the guns a little older a stamp of a running rabbit in a diamond with the letters VS. You may also see letters A.M. before the serial number. Stoeger imported guns from a variety of makers. IIRC their current guns are being manufactured in Brazil and I think may be the same guns as the ones marketed under the name Boito. If the Stoeger in question is a Zephyr it's well worth $500 in good condition. Sarasqueta made some of the better Spanish guns.

December 6, 2000, 08:27 PM	#10
huntsman Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2000 Location: ohio Posts: 121	PJR,I agree with you on the risk of buying used doubles, believe me I learned the hard way I bought my share of junk and I believe there's a lot being passed off as great american classics. These were sold new as knockabouts or cheap hardware guns. For along time I believe the japanese guns of 60-70's were under valued because they were japanese not because of quality, and good deals could be found. But I balk when it comes to the doubles out of south america , simply because of the rep they got buy using soft metals.Maybe junk is too strong a word I just think there are better guns for the money.

December 7, 2000, 10:11 AM	#11
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	huntsman: Learning those hard lessons is almost a rite of passage among double gunners. I can't think of anyone who hasn't learned one or two, me included. I guess those experiences are like college tuition. It's the price to you to pay to get an education.

December 7, 2000, 09:52 PM	#12
bobstreit Member Join Date: December 4, 2000 Posts: 21	Well guys, I have to say, you have all been awsome at giving me advice. And I fully appreciate it. Although, I must admit, I went down to the gunshop that had the Baikal yesterday, and I told the owner that I hadn't heard anything real good about the Baikal, and I wanted to look for something a little better, he really let me know he thought I was making a mistake. Ya, I know, he is a salesman and just trying to sell guns, but I asked him if he could keep his eyes open for me, so he knows I want to buy eventually. I am just really torn at the whole situation. i would almost rather get a new gun and take my chances with a one year warrantee. That way I can always get it replaced or return it. I don't know, I know I sound el-cheapo, but I just can't see in my financial position paying $500 for a gun that I can't return. If anyone knows anything else about the Savage, that sounds like a possibility, or not?????

December 7, 2000, 09:55 PM	#13
bobstreit Member Join Date: December 4, 2000 Posts: 21	Almost forgot, Dave McC, thanks for bringing the info back!!

December 8, 2000, 11:01 AM	#14
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	Stumbled across the following during a surfing session. http://www.gunshop.com/HyperNews/get...hop/18240.html Seems that Baikal has a following among some pretty savvy gunowners.

December 9, 2000, 05:04 PM	#15
bobstreit Member Join Date: December 4, 2000 Posts: 21	I don't know guys, I just read that thing on another web page about Baikals, and it seems that some people are really happy with them. By no means am I saying you guys are wrong about what you said, but for a low budget gun, maybe it is a good choice. Man am I torn!!!

December 10, 2000, 03:37 PM	#17
dog1 Member Join Date: November 8, 1999 Location: new auburn, WI USA Posts: 44	I have a baikal 12ga and it has worked great for me.I have put over 200 rounds through it with no problems. After a little breaking in it shoots as good as more expensive guns. I would not hesitate to buy another one

December 11, 2000, 09:57 PM	#18
bobstreit Member Join Date: December 4, 2000 Posts: 21	Do you shoot steel shot or slugs our of your Baikal? How does it perform for you???

December 12, 2000, 12:44 PM	#20
General Tso Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2000 Posts: 133	FWIW, I see a lot of Stoegers and Baikals both during the season Cowboy Action Shooting. Generally I've heard favorable impressions about both with the exception of the actions being rather stiff when new. Now, admittedly we're using these for a different style shooting than you're talking about and it is, as RAE pointed out, primarily with lighter loads, but the guns are holding up well. You tend to do a fair bit of shooting with these things in CAS, especially if you parctice much and long term durability seems to be pretty good, particularly on the Stoegers which have been around longer than the Baikals. These two guns are pretty much teh work horses of the CAS circles and probably the most common doubles you'll run across. $500 sounds high for these guns though. I typically see Stoeger coach guns for around $299 and baikal coach guns for $199-$225 at local shows. For that money i think they're probably decent deals, for $500 I'd be inclined to agree with others here that you might be better off setting your sights a little higher. A quick look on Gunsamerica (not generally the lowest prices around) showed Stoegers in the high $200's to mid and upper $300's depending on model and Bakails in the low to upper $200's. [Edited by General Tso on 12-13-2000 at 02:57 PM]