We've lost the RKBA fight

[Wallew]

From the "2000 Standard Catalog of Firearms" (10th Anniversary Edition) - page 31, second column, fourth paragraph. This is an industry standard reference manual. When they print the following in their book, it gives you time to pause say, "This sux". Article is by Dave Tinker. Here is what he had to say.

"Consumers, dealers or distributors never showed enough buying interest to make 1997 much more than a third consecutive year of drought. Firearms executives who had convinced themselves that Clinton was the only cause of their woes were for the first time forced to acknowledge that this industry has problems that go far beyond one year's consumer, dealer and distributor demand.

One of the largest problems the industry had to deal with in 1997 - and one it will face for the next several years unless drastic changes are made soon - is a shrinking and aging base of customers for it's wares.

'The average age of our ultimate customer keeps going up,' a marketing manager observed. 'We're all fighting to sell rifles to these people right up until five minutes before they die. The result is that distributors are basically selling guns for the payment terms - 3 percent, 5 percent or whatever. That's not going to change until we find some new customers.'"

I had never read this article in the front of the Standard Catalog of Firearms until this last weekend. I was looking up an old H&R pistol a friend asked about when the book just fell open to this article, titled "1999...A Decade of Turbulence". Got through about two thirds of the article and read the above three paragraphs.

This really shook me, as I stopped working in the computer field about four years ago and went to gunsmithing school. Graduated. Started gunsmithing. I was in the process of looking for a shop to buy, so I could have a place to work for the next fifteen or twenty years (I'll be 48 this year). So, sure I can still buy the store. And maybe be profitable for the next five to ten years. But WHO WOULD I SELL THE STORE TO THEN? There won't be any interested buyers around to sell the store to. Hey, those shops that survive the next ten years will be fighting among themselves for that shrinking customer base.

The real problem isn't that we don't believe in the RKBA, the problem is NONE of us, not the NRA, not the GOA, not one of us can solve this problem without refreshing our customer base. And as everyone knows, we've already lost that battle. WE are no longer allowed to tell children about firearms in schools anymore. And folks, THAT'S OUR FUTURE. And we've lost the fight. Because we (the RKBA crowd) aren't even allowed NEAR schools anymore. The only time you hear about guns and schools is when someone is shooting children. AND THAT WILL NOT HELP US RECRUIT ANY CHILDREN TO OUR CAUSE.

So, we've lost this right (RKBA). The corpse is dead. All HCI has to do is NOTHING but wait thirty years and they will then be able to bury the rotting corpse (RKBA) without incidence or protest, because by then, there won't be ANY of US left to defend the 2nd.

Truth suxs. And this is the truth.

We should look at how Harley Davidson has managed to bring youth back into their market. We would do well to emulate them. Can you say "Boutique Gun Stores"? That sell more T-shirts and doo-dads than guns?? Sigh! How depressing!

[hube1236]

It is up to you, me and everyone else here to preserve our shooting heritage. I will indoctrinate my daughter and son (if I ever get a boy). While people are trying to equate firearm ownership with kiddie porn, we will be shooting away.

If it was up to advertisers to sway the public, we would all be thin, drinking carrot juice shakes working out with our thigh masters.

[hube1236]

Oh yeah,

If they did make the things so gosh darned expensive, maybe people starting out in their twenties could afford stuff.

[Bam Bam]

You have identify neutrals or wanna-be shooters and educate them. I have gotten 3 non-shooters started and hopefully they will make the transition from hobbiests to RKBA defenders. But if all you do is hang around the clubhouse or gunstore and preach to the choir then certainly the customer base will disappear.

Don't just write to your legislators. Write to Browning, Beretta, Winchester, Ruger, Remington etc and urge them to place advertisements in George, GQ, Maxim, Esquire, Sports Illustrated and so on. Even women's magazines. If we are fighting for the hearts and minds then we have to go after where the populace lives.

hube, pump shotguns and trap/skeet shooting are excellent introductions to the shooting sports. Take a friend trap shooting today. And if you have to buy an extra shotgun so he can shoot along with you, so be it. You know you can always use another gun.

[Jim March]

Widespread CCW will help. Get Calif and NY and some other big states switched to shall-issue and you'll boost defensive sales. People who start out as "defensive buyers" (such as myself) are then good candidates for conversion to hunting purposes...if I wasn't so busy with RKBA issues, I'd have long since gone handgun hunting for boar, possibly deer.

I view widespread legal defensive carry as our main possible savior.

We also have to boost youth access, interest and training in healthy ways. That's why I moderate the Politics forum at http://www.bladeforums.com - BF has 1,000 more subscribers than TFL and they're a FAR younger demographic, it's a great place to interest a new generation of RKBA activists. Anyone with a defensive interest younger than 21 more or less has to consider cutlery, which is why BF is how it is.

I've been at NRA meetings where at age 36, I'm the youngest in the room. You BET that's a problem. BF is part of the answer, and one reason the gun lobby has to start thinking about helping out with knife laws - that's something the younger set can and does take an interest in.

Jim

[MadScientist]

why is this thread restricted (technically) to those over 13yrs? Assuming that it's to keep the maturity level up why don't "we" start a kids corner where some adult member can babysit and answer kids' questions? If you could draw kids in somehow, we could talk to them about gun safety and the like.

[Blue Duck357]

Mad Scientist, Thats a great idea!

Administrator?

[Jorah Lavin]

...might be to not look down our noses at good-functioning self-defense or plinker guns that are cheaper, older, or not-cutting-edge. I love high-end guns, and hope to have a customized 1911 some day, but my 40-something .38spl Model 10 is more accurate than I am, is fairly cheap to shoot, and didn't cost much. There is room in the world for both types of hardware. Wasn't too long ago that I didn't know where my next rent payment was coming from, but I would have saved up for a shotgun and a box of shells to keep if TSHTF.

We might get more buyers interested in self defense and RKBA if the price of admission was considered to be manageable.

I don't think we've lost the fight, though. What I do think, is that the shooting community of 15 years from now is going to look a lot different. Look for G/L/Bi/TG/Etc. shooting groups, look for more women shooters, look for minority (ethnic, racial, religious) groups getting the message.

I've heard that Hispanic-background folks are one of the fastest growing population segments of our country... why aren't we recruiting in that community?

If your range is full of 50-70 year old white guys, that is just fine, and they are probably the individual big spenders, but 10 high end rifles are no more valuable to the bottom line of the gun manufacturing plant than 50 inexpensive guns sold to newcomers to the RKBA... people who might be having a hard time feeding the kids, but who know first hand what living under an oppressive regime is like. I know a lot of people come to USA in search of the real American dream... not a handout, but a chance for a better life, including hard work, saving money, taking care of the kids, starting businesses; they should be very amenable to the true story of the Second Amendment... let's start talking!




[Edited by Jorah Lavin on 04-10-2001 at 07:13 AM]

[croyance]

Since when were new shooters recruited in schools? Sure schools used to have rifle programs, but that is not where shooters started. They started shooting with their own families, usually with a single shot .22 LR. Then they went on to hunting.
How many people have given up hunting as too inconvenient? The wife/girlfriend doesn't like guns, and after you have kids, it is just work, right? Well who goes on to educate their kids about firearms?
I started owning guns and shooting at 28. I am 31 now, and have moved to a state with shall issue CCW laws. I took advantage of that, of course. The only bad thing is that now I don't have anyone to go on the first hunt with. I have taken people who were on the fence about guns to the range and shown them how to shoot, well at least the basics. They all seemed to have a good time, and some have gone on to buy their own guns. One even wants to buy one for his wife!
So I guess I'm saying it is never to late. It helps if we seem like reasonable people, with logical as opposed to emotional arguements. And we need more hunters. The amount of hunters in this country has gone into a steady decline as we become a more urban culture. Hunters and their families has traditionally been where shooters of all stripes come from.
We can all do good PR and show others the way. And when the economy really hits the fan, one of too things will happen. The crime rate will drastically increase as the economy gets worse. The country will either decide the RKBA is critical, or we will disarm all law abiding citizens.
In the meantime, we do need to change the way recreational shooters and CCW holders are portrayed.

[Jim March]

In the shall-issue CCW states, why aren't RKBA people doing "get out the CCW drives" patterend after voter registration? Why is it ordinary people in shall-issue states are often surprised to learn that CCW permits are even available?

How hard would it be to do a one-page flyer on the process, the benefits, pointers to web-links on at least summaries of Lott/Kleck type data, maybe some good quotes from pro-gun cops, local if possible, in-state at least?

It would have two effects: increase the number of gunnies, and make more crooks aware that this is available and put 'em on notice.

Both results seem worthwhile, no?

Jim

[ktm520]

It's imperative that we introduce our kids and friends not only to shooting as a sport, but to the concept of accepting responsibility for their own safety as well. A CCW registration drive is a great idea. It is a goal of mine to apply for as many non-resident CCW permits as possible. Not because I travel that much, but because "they" don't want me to have them. So far I have NH & ME, waiting for MA, CT, RI & UT to come back.

I try to bring a newbie along whenever I go shooting at lunch, and have picked up a few new shooters. Three people at the office now carry daily. I like introducing people to my hobbies, but I have the most fun shooting with my kids.


I take my boys, 12 & 16, and my daughter, 13, shooting regularly. I'm used to the reactions of non-shooters when I tell them this, but I am always amazed at the disapproving looks I get from some shooters at the range. I let the kids fire everything....shotgun, cowboy guns, rifle, and any of my semi-auto handguns. They practiced outdoors for months before going to the range, and the RSO has never had an issue with them. They are all excellent shots, and are very safe when handling any of the guns. I have never seen them point a gun anywhere but downrange (I wish I could say that about some of our neighbors in the adjacent lanes!).

Last week the couple in the next lane couldn't contain their disapproval, shaking their heads back and forth as my youngest fired off 9 rounds of 12ga slugs (25 yds, 6" group!), and then went through a full mag of 40sw, 357sig and 9mm. They were beside themselves and left after only 15 minutes.

I run into people like this almost every weekend. Out of 10 lanes, there always seems to be 1 or 2 groups that seem amazed that I would let the kids handle and fire anything but a 22. It doesn't bother me that they disapprove. I don't live my life for their approval. But it can't help to have 20% of the people active in the shooting sports thinking that kids and guns are a bad combination! Has anyone else had this experience?

[Micro]

The best we can do is get our children involved and invite our anti-friends and relatives to the range. I am buying a pink Crickett rifle for my daughters (I'll probably add Hello Kitty and Barbie stickers to the stock to complete the effect :-)). The more we bring young people and the converted in, we can build it back up. I have not completely given up hope yet. In the long run we have to make it a social pursuit, loners with guns does not a movement make!

[BB]

That article is full of it.

Look at the average age of the folks on these boards. I'd say it's around 25-35. Go to a gun show. I go to them all the time, and around these parts there are just as many twenty somethings as there are older people. I'd like to know how the writer came up with this.

[Drizzt]

Jim, I think the CCW drive is a great idea, but unfortunately, its not really practical for many people, due to cost. In TX, the class and license will cost a combined total of $240-280, maybe more, depending on where you take the class. Not everyone has the available cash to spare to go out and get their CHL, no matter how much they may want to do so. I had to wait until I got promoted before I had the available funds to do it, and I'm taking my class this weekend. Maybe we need to get the cost of getting a permit down to a reasonable level (well, we REALLY SHOULDN'T need a permit in the first place).

[Kharn]

In Pennsylvania the cost is only $19 for 5 years, no other costs associated with the CCW liscense, IIRC, and its shall issue. The biggest problem is you must apply in person, but I'm sure someone could get a pro-gun Sheriff to go down to the local firing range on a Saturday and sign up everybody at the range.

Kharn

[viesczy]

Regardless of what can and can't be taught in school (those leftist punks have got to go! ), WE are those that instruct the children, not a teacher!

My SO's children (2 girls at ages 5 & 9) hear in their school that guns are bad and I am most likely the only male that exposes them to firearms in a positive way. They have a BB gun and I supervise their usage of the bb gun and have made paramount the safety factors of proper hanling of firearms. Okay the youngest isn't really big enough to handle the Daisy yet, but is constantly drilled on safety.

For never shooting before Ashley (9 yr old) picked up sight acquisition fairly quickly and I was impressed with that. Her trigger control is a bit off, but that Daisy (what name for an air rifle, let's go shoot our Daisy! ) does have a fairly heavy trigger. I'm thinking that come this summer, a .22lr pistol/rifle might be PERFECT present to myself, I mean for her Bday!

Derek

[Dogger]

We have not lost the fight. We win by influencing the people around us. I have four sons. I am teaching all four of my sons to appreciate firearms and the RKBA. By the way, my father was not a gun person. No one taught me. I developed a passion for firearms from just being a young American boy who played cowboys and indians and watched Vic Morrow in Combat! on TV. I can reach beyond my four sons to their friends (with parental permission of course) and to cousins, nephews etc. If we lose the fight it is because we are not passing on the traditions to our loved ones. So what if we aren't allowed in schools. So what if popular culture says guns are bad. If we rely on schools, TV, and popular culture we are screwed. Kids learn most from their parents, grand parents, aunts, and uncles.
My two cents.

[gjwandkids]

You know I HAD to jump in here. We have five children (so far) they are all being given a love AND a resepct for firearms and the shooting sports. My husband and I have personally converted two anti's and 3 fence sitters in the past year. We did that by making the most of our opportunity to present shooting and self-defense in a logical (non-emotional) way. The antis thrive on emotion. So when an opportunity presents itself, be very calm, and be sure of your facts. Don't take it personally even when the other person gets personal. If you have any kind of relationship with the person, they will start listening to your arguments if only because they can't seem to get a rise out of you. (That's what worked with my daddy anyway).

I am of the opinion that the anti's have backed off because they are losing and they don't like that. The liberals are running from the gun control issue because it isn't playing well to middle America, especially in rural areas, which has a history of voting Democrat. And let's be real, there are some Democrats that are VERY pro-gun, and don't like the way their party has been highjacked by the liberals. So although we still need to be wary (liberals NEVER give up, they just change their method of attack), I think we have every chance to get back our rights.

[George Hill]

RKBA is alive and well!
We had a tough fight - but we won a major goal in our favor and while there is still fighting left to do... We shall prevail!

This doomsayer is someone you shouldn't listen to. CHICKEN! QUITTER! COWARD!
Even if you can't win the war - You do not just Roll Over for the enemy. Fight them to the last man! Make them pay for every inch.

[jwise]

Well said, George.

I'd like to share some hope with all of you: I was exposed very little to firearms when I was young. We were city-folk, and probably one of only a handful of Texas families who didn't have a relative who owned a large expanse of land. My training came in two ways, a Daisy air rifle, and an AirGuns air pistol (rifle first, then pistol.) However, that little bit of exposure was all it took to start a life-long passion for gun-ownership. As I got older, I was given my Grand-dad's 22lr and 410. When I was 15, I talked my dad into signing the papers for a 380 pistol I wanted. My dad signed more papers until I turned 21 and could do it for myself. I am only 24 now, and I have spent thousands of dollars on firearms. Not only have I contributed to the industry directly, but I have also encouraged others to do the same.

When I went off to college, I had roommates who were some of my closest friends. I am proud to say that while we lived together (or shortly thereafter) all of them, save one who has moved to FL, has their CCW permit. I can count 5 people who now have their permits (and one who will be taking the class VERY soon) due to some degree of influence from me. The majority of them bought a pistol either right before or right after they were issued their licenses.

J. Wise

[Handgun Harry]

What's great about kids is they tend to listen to YOU more than they do their schools..

My 15 year old Nephew.. I could tell him to go jump off a bridge and he'd probably do it.. heh..

I make sure to tell him:

"Firearms and NOT bad in ANY WAY... it's the people who don't know how to USE them, or that are not responsible with them that are bad!"

I've shown him proper safety in handling my 1911, how to load, unload, safeties, etc.. I plan on taking him to the range at some point.

[Mikul]

I know that guns are expensive, but they're extremely durable goods. If cared for properly, you can still shoot that Remington you bought as a 25 year-old when you're 82.

This is also a problem for the manufacturers. Repeat business is not a guarantee. Many gun manufacturers also sell other products: t-shirts, knives, ammunition, but plenty of other people do too and they do a better job of it. A smart manufacturer would begin tailoring ammunition to individual weapons. Why buy Hornady's ammo when Remington makes the most accurate stuff for the 700?

[Dave R]

I have heard that, in states with right-to-carry, there is growth in the women's market. For example, I read somewhere (I'll look for the source) that 40% of snub revolvers are sold to women.

Maybe a growth market? Are any of the manufacturers capitalizing on it?

[Wallew]

Two things jump out at me. For all of you who are teaching your children (and anyone else who's interesed) firearms etiquette and safety, good for you. As an NRA certified firearms instructor I commend you.

Secondly, while many believe that firearms shooters DON'T come from schools, you are dead wrong. No, they aren't trained there, BUT the opinions they form about guns and violence begat by guns IS FORMED IN SCHOOL. And then reinforced at home. Don't think so? You should hear what they tell kids about other subjects. I have friends of mine, whose kids came home and told them if they didn't quit smoking, they were going to turn them into social services for damaging their health. It worked. One quit entirely, the other now only smokes away from his OWN HOME. The one HE PAYS FOR. My point was, the children are being taught guns are bad. Forty years ago, thirty years ago, even twenty years ago guns weren't portrayed DAILY as evil. Today, they are!

And now, a few words from the posts above:

BB said "Go to a gun show. I go to them all the time, and around these parts there are just as many twenty somethings as there are older people."

That's part of the problem. There should be two or three TIMES the number of young people at shows. I've been selling at a show here in Denver for the past few months with a friend. We see the SAME PEOPLE day in and day out. And why am I now selling at gun shows? Because my buddies partner (he's in his 70's) had a stroke and is retiring from the trade. For us to carry on, we need at least two shooters for every one that leaves the shooting sports. AND THAT AIN'T HAPPENING. Why two. Because we all change hobbies or lose interest for one reason or the other.

ktm520 said "Last week the couple in the next lane couldn't contain their disapproval, shaking their heads back and forth as my youngest fired off 9 rounds of 12ga slugs (25 yds, 6" group!), and then went through a full mag of 40sw, 357sig and 9mm. They were beside themselves and left after only 15 minutes. I run into people like this almost every weekend. Out of 10 lanes, there always seems to be 1 or 2 groups that seem amazed that I would let the kids handle and fire anything but a 22. It doesn't bother me that they disapprove."

And this from people who are supposedly ON OUR SIDE. A story I can relate is as a gunsmith, a couple of my customers recently voted FOR AMENDMENT 22 (closing the gun show 'loophole'). When I asked, they told me it was WRONG from criminals to be able to purchase a gun without a background check. And guess what. The show this month will have ALL FIREARMS SOLD going through a background check (only adds ANOTHER $10 to the cost of the firearm). After all, if it only saves on child. I could puke. And KTM520, IT SHOULD bother you that they disapprove. You should ask them WHY they feel that way. You will be surprised at the venom OUR OWN KIND spout to support their ideas.

Jorah Lavin said "We might get more buyers interested in self defense and RKBA if the price of admission was considered to be manageable."

JL, I disagree. I can point you to several manufacturers who make all sorts of low cost firearms. Pistols, rifles or shotguns. H&R makes all sorts of single shot rifles and shotguns for under $200 (at least that's the price out west here). Kahr makes semi-auto's fairly inexpensive. So do other firms (FEG, Tanfoglio, and others). I've seen Mossberg shotguns for $200 NIB all over the place. And those are for brand new weapons. This says nothing of the USED MARKETPLACE. A good shape Makarov, with extra magazine and holster are less than $200. Used shotguns start around $75 and go up. Lever action rifles start around $250 and used rifles start for less than that.

Bam Bam says "If we are fighting for the hearts and minds then we have to go after where the populace lives."

BamBam, you make my point. Folks, the populace doesn't live at the gun store, the gun show, or the gun range. They live at the schools and at the mall. And at NO TIME during their daily lives do they ever think 'GUNS SAVE LIVES' or 'GUNS ARE OUR HERITAGE' or 'THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO CONTROL OUR LIVES, AND TAKING OUR GUNS IS ONLY THE FIRST STEP TOWARDS A TOTALITARIAN REGIME'. Hell, most of the general populace doesn't even know how to spell totalitarian regime, much less understand what's going on around them, as long as they have their three squares a day and a tube to watch at night, they're happy.


LAST, but certainly not least. NO ONE address the two points made. The first is, we are currently an industry whose clientele is aging rapidly and is not being replaced. In Russia SCHOOL KIDS are taught how firearms work and that they are good for the protection of the state. Here, the kids are taught guns are bad and ONLY PEOPLE WHO INTEND VIOLENCE USE GUNS. That's how gun owners are portrayed DAILY in the media, in schools, in coffee clatchs and bridge clubs. So we've lost this fight for the perception of what guns actually are. Yeah, you and I know it's not true, but then our numbers dwindle every day. And to those who say HCI is losing popularity, so what? They are just one visible point in this fight. Just because they have lessened their rhetoric doesn't mean WE WON. When they bury you or I sometime in the next thirty or forty years, do you actually believe you will be able to pass along the 'heritage of the gun' they way you want to? Forty years from now, when you or I die, yours or my guns will be turned over to whatever agency has been set up to destroy this part of our history. And our children (not yours or mine, but those raised in public education) will be happy that all those EVIL GUNS have finally been properly disposed of. And if you don't think so, then you better look at recent history here in US. Who amoung us would have thought thirty five years ago we would be in this fight. Who amoung us would have believed that guns would be so villianized in the press as to sway popular opinion that guns are anything but a tool that can be use properly or misused. Now days, if you own a gun, you are seen as someone who promotes violence. If not, WHY DO YOU NEED THAT GUN???

Secondly, all we have to do is wait and then WE will be envious of our shooting brother in Austrailia or England or Canada. Because we will have suffered the same fate as them, only at the hands of our brainwashed society. And there isn't anything we can do about it.

The only thing that could STOP this perhaps would be an invasion of our own shores by an agressor (China?, Russia?). Then, we might see a shift in public perception. Short of that. WE HAVE ALREADY LOST THE RKBA FIGHT.

And George, that "Never give up. Never surrender" sounds good here, but when the blue helments (whoever) shows up at your door (or mine) backed up by an APC (BMP) or other light armor and DEMANDS the surrender of your weapons, you are going to expose yourself and your family to death to make your point? I won't. And neither will most others. Probably less than two percent of us will. And if the gun grabbers are just willing to wait about another thirty - forty years, they won't need those troops, as your (or my) children will gladly give them up. "Hey kids, look. We just got a free big screen TV from the government for Grandpaws evil old guns." This is of course assuming NOTHING CHANGES in that time frame, that we just continue on this course.

[pax]

Secondly, while many believe that firearms shooters DON'T come from schools, you are dead wrong. No, they aren't trained there, BUT the opinions they form about guns and violence begat by guns IS FORMED IN SCHOOL. And then reinforced at home.

Get your child out of government schools and you won't have to worry about the brainwashing they are receiving during school hours. If you can't bring yourself to get them out of government schools, plan to spend all your family time deprogramming your children.

In the past two years, my shoting buddy has had a direct influence on at least three people that I know of (myself included) to start carrying weaponry and get involved in RKBA politics. I've turned around and am working on my teenage babysitter (you should see that girl shoot a .44 mag!) and on my five children, as well as on several other friends and acquaintances. I expect that most of my children and maybe half of those other people will become serious RKBA folks too. If each of those people turns around and does the same, the number of RKBAers will grow exponentially.

If we all do our part and keep doing our part, the battle for RKBA is far from over.

If we all give up the fight and just bemoan the dying industry, the industry will die when we do.

pax