Unloading my Reloads?

[Bowhunter57]

I've reloaded ammo for many years and I typically load in the mid range off of the reloading manual's suggested loads. An example would be (just for grabbing at numbers)...If the suggested loads for the powder I was using was 10, 12, 14, 16 and 18 grains of powder, I would tend to load a 14 gr. and a 15 gr. load, shoot them at the range and see which one gave the best grouping.

While reading the online Hodgdon reloading data, for a "modern 45-70 lever-action rifle", the starting loads were at 58 gr. and max loads were at 62 gr. My reasoning was to load a 59 gr. load with a Hornady 300 gr. JHP bullet, take it to the range and see how it grouped. However, a 59 gr. load of IMR-3031 fills the case!!!

Now, after reading a few posts, I'm seriously considering unloading the bullets with my RCBS "hammer" and dropping the charge to approximately 55 grains...or less.

* I'll be using these loads for coyotes and later this fall for whitetail deer.
* My hunting ranges will be inside 200 yards.
* I'm using a Marlin 1895 Cowboy with a 26" octagon barrel...and is unfired brand new.

Your suggestions and experiences are appreciated.
Thank you, Bowhunter57

[BBarn]

Recent bullet maker load data I checked is below the Hodgdon data. The manuals I checked listed ranges as low as 50 grains (starting) to 60 grains (maximum) in the 45-70 (modern lever actions) when loading with IMR 3031 powder.

If you still have the components, I'd load and fire some at a lower level rather than disassemble the ammo you've already loaded. You may want to work up to the 59 grain level eventually. I would proceed with caution however since the Hornady data I have lists 56.9 grains as the max for their 300 gr. bullet.

There does appear to be a somewhat wide range of maximum IMR 3031 powder charges across the various sources I checked. As a result I would stay as close as possible to the specifics of the published loads (primer, cases, bullet, and OAL). Or perhaps choose a different powder that is somewhat more consistent across load data sources (if such a powder exists).

[T. O'Heir]

"...reloading manual's suggested loads..." Reloading manual's do not suggest loads.
"...tend to load a 14 gr. and a 15 gr. load..." That's not working up a load. It's picking a couple and hoping.
"...59 gr. load of IMR-3031 fills the case!!..." Compressed loads do not start at the max load(64.0 being Max for a jacketed bullet). Compressed loads are nothing to worry about though.
"...55 grains...or less..." Below minimum loads can be as dangerous as above max load. However, in this case, 55 grains of IMR4350 is the Max load for a 300 grain Trap Door load. 51.7 being the start load for a Trapdoor. There's no reason not to use Trap Door loads in any lever action. Mind you, a JHP is unlikely to expand at Trap Door velocities. Of course, if you shoot it at a deer, Bambi won't notice.

[Smoke & Recoil]

@ Bowhunters57...Life is easier if you leave the collet out of your
RCBS hammer and replace it with the proper shell holder...much
easier.

[Unclenick]

Bowhunter57,

You've just discovered why starting in the middle of a load range is not really a good idea. Some load ranges are completely outside others. Check three different sources and use the smallest load you find to start. Working up with single loads incremented by 2% of the maximum charge doesn't really take long (6 shots to cover 10%) or cost a lot and it can spare you grief. On three occasions now, I have encountered starting loads that were already maximums for the particular guns I tried them in.

Follow the advice to work up from the smallest starting load toward the loads you have now, and you may never need to pull them. In the 1895, take calipers with you. A pressure sign you get in a lever gun that does not occur in most bolt rifles is extra stretching of the brass before resizing. It happens because the bolt locks up in the rear, so the whole receiver between that point and the barrel can stretch like a spring and allow that growth. M.L McPherson uses this as a pressure sign. I think he measured his cases before after firing with starting loads as a baseline. As he increased the charge, in addition to the classic pressure signs, when it started to grow again, and, IIRC, when it hit 0.005" of additional growth he considered he was shooting the gun pretty hard.

[hdwhit]

How many rounds did you load, Bowhunter57?

If more than a handful, using a kinetic bullet puller can become quite tedious. The RCBS collet style puller has always done a good job for me and usually can be counted on to not mar the bullets so they can be reused.

Like T. O'Heir said, compressed loads are nothing to worry about. But, I do know that until you get used to them, it can be unnerving filling the case up that far.

[Unclenick]

On compressed loads, note that stick powder grains can arrange themselves in a number of ways, some more dense than other. Using a drop tube to put them in a case can help a lot.

[Bowhunter57]

hdwhit, "How many rounds did you load, Bowhunter57?"

Unfortunately, 50 rounds. I just didn't feel comfortable with the compressed loads and not being able to get a good crimp. I used my RCBS inertia bullet puller and had them separated in a just a few minutes. I put the brass back through the neck expander die, loaded 10 rounds with 52 gr. of IMR-3031, got a good crimp and will be going to the range to see how they group.

If all goes well, I'll reload the rest of the brass with the same grains, go back out to sight the rifle in at 100 yards and get started letting the blood out of some coyotes.

I'll let you know how things go at the range.
Bowhunter57

[Ricklin]

An RCBS collet type puller is the way to go if you have more than a few rounds to disassemble.

If I "hammer" them apart with the inertial puller I always put a little padding in to prevent damage to the point of SP bullets.

It really helps.

[44 AMP]

While reading the online Hodgdon reloading data, for a "modern 45-70 lever-action rifle", the starting loads were at 58 gr. and max loads were at 62 gr. My reasoning was to load a 59 gr. load with a Hornady 300 gr. JHP bullet, take it to the range and see how it grouped. However, a 59 gr. load of IMR-3031 fills the case!!!

Consider this, for a moment, You used Hodgdon's data for a Hornady bullet, and IMR (is it still Dupont?) powder.

The first HORNADY book I picked up lists (modern 1895 rifle)
300gr JHP, IMR 3031,
Min: 49.3gr MAX: 58.0grs.

Your arbitrarily chosen "beginning" load is over my Hornady manuals MAX load!!!!

.45-70 loading data is all over the place, because #1 every rifle is different (applies to all loading data) and #2, there are three distinct "strength" classes of .45-70 rifles that have been made since 1873.

Loads that reproduce black powder pressures and velocities are the "standard". Made for use in the Trapdoor Springfield rifles (including modern copies), and safe in all .45-70s.

Hotter loads are intended for the 1886 Winchester, and (original) 1895 Marlin. With these loads you can get into the 1800-maybe even 2000fps range with light (300gr) bullets, and 15-1600fps with a 405gr slug. (Factory standard BP velocity is 1300fps)

The modern Marlin 1895 is a bit stronger than the old guns, BUT is still grouped in the "Tier II" rifles, with max pressure limits at approx. 40,000c.u.p.

The hottest loads, sometimes called Tier III are intended for use ONLY in the very strongest .45-70s, the Ruger single shots (No.1 and No.3) or in converted Mauser bolt actions. They run in the 50K psi range.

These loads are TOO HOT for the Tier II lever guns, and run a serious risk of blowing up Tier I (Trapdoor Springfield) rifles!!!!

I have a load that clocks 2200fps with the Hornady 350gr SP from MY Ruger No.3. Not a load you want to shoot prone! Not kind from the bench, walks me back a step when fired offhand. Also NOT a load I would use an any other rifle, (possible grenade in a Trapdoor) and even in another Ruger I would drop the load a bit and CAREFULLY work up.

RELOADING DATA is GUIDELINES, not laws of nature. Your gun is NOT their test gun, MY gun is not their test gun. Either of us could have widely different results with the same load.

Even within the listed data for each rifle & ammo combination, what is below max in gun A might be over max in gun B, and there is NO WAY to be CERTAIN, until you shoot them. That's why we begin low and carefully work up, until we know we are in the safe operating zone for the gun in our hands.

You've got a nice new, strong rifle, one that will let you go well beyond black powder speeds and pressures. Now, it becomes a question of, "do you NEED to do that". I had a Marlin 1895, one of the rifles before they put in the crossbolt safety. With worked up loads, I got a 385gr cast into the 1800fps range. Recoil was ..stout. One tip, if you use a scope, make sure you have PLENTY of eye relief!!

The 300gr JHP is a waste of money for coyotes. Except as practice for your deer load. Even at the highest speeds you can drive them, I doubt you would get any expansion in a coyote. Simply too small and light an animal for that bullet to expand reliably. I would be amazed if you ever recovered one from a coyote. even BP speed slugs tend to blow right through smaller game.

I would recommend starting with BP level loads, get a feel for your rifle and how it shoots, then move up to the heavier loads, in steps, until you find the velocity level you want, and learn to manage the recoil. I also recommend a slip on recoil pad, if your gun has doesn't have one. Trust me, you probably won't enjoy shooting heavy loads without some kind of pad. Especially if your rifle has the crescent style butt.

Good Luck and let us know how things work out.